The “roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion”

[MurriFlower]

June 1998 Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Thomas Haney and Trip DeMuth (Cigars in the basement)

0422
17 TRIP DEMUTH: Nothing out of the ordinary in
18 photo 254, 255 and 56?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
20 TOM HANEY: 263 and 64.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Close ups of those.
22 TOM HANEY: Also appear to be.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible).
24 TOM HANEY: Do one or both of you smoke
25 cigars?

June 1998 Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Thomas Haney and Trip DeMuth (Cigars in the basement)

0423
1 PATSY RAMSEY: No one does.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. Were they normally kept
3 there?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, he must -- I don't know.
5 TOM HANEY: Is that taboo in the house to
6 have them?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No. He probably put them in
8 there because it was an airtight place. It was cool.
9 I don't know what you do with cigars.
10 TOM HANEY: A humidor.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: A can.
12 TOM HANEY: Wasn't like he was hiding them
13 from you?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

Two things I have to say about this..

LIES!

Could the marks be Cigar burns????

This is interesting. Doesn't make sense. IF she actually said in answer to the question 'does one or both of you smoke cigars', no one does, then go on to talk about the cigars in the wine cellar. Can't help but wonder if this was taken down incorrectly by the stenographer. They wouldn't have cigars if neither of them smoked them, so there would be no reason to deny it. Did they just keep them for friends? Hardly. Hmmm. We've already noted mistakes in transcriptions before, but now I'm wondering just how accurate they really are. Perhaps what she said was "John does". Makes more sense in the context, because the interviewer goes on with "Ok, were they normally kept there". If she had actually said "no one does" his response would have been something like, well do you own these cigars in the picture, or whose cigars are these, or who did you keep them for. See what I mean?

 

[Agatha_C]

This is interesting. Doesn't make sense. IF she actually said in answer to the question 'does one or both of you smoke cigars', no one does, then go on to talk about the cigars in the wine cellar. Can't help but wonder if this was taken down incorrectly by the stenographer. They wouldn't have cigars if neither of them smoked them, so there would be no reason to deny it. Did they just keep them for friends? Hardly. Hmmm. We've already noted mistakes in transcriptions before, but now I'm wondering just how accurate they really are. Perhaps what she said was "John does". Makes more sense in the context, because the interviewer goes on with "Ok, were they normally kept there". If she had actually said "no one does" his response would have been something like, well do you own these cigars in the picture, or whose cigars are these, or who did you keep them for. See what I mean?

How then do we explain her smoking a cigar at her birthday party? I see what you're saying and to some extent I do agree, but normally when the stenographer doesnt understand, there would be an> (inaudible). Murri, would it be so hard to admit that there might have been times PR lied and that not everything pointing to it, was a typo or misunderstanding (That wasnt meant as a poke, but a real and honest question). If you want us to see her as Human (I do) with human emotions than at least admit, she is human enough to lie....

 

[SunnieRN]

This is interesting. Doesn't make sense. IF she actually said in answer to the question 'does one or both of you smoke cigars', no one does, then go on to talk about the cigars in the wine cellar. Can't help but wonder if this was taken down incorrectly by the stenographer. They wouldn't have cigars if neither of them smoked them, so there would be no reason to deny it. Did they just keep them for friends? Hardly. Hmmm. We've already noted mistakes in transcriptions before, but now I'm wondering just how accurate they really are. Perhaps what she said was "John does". Makes more sense in the context, because the interviewer goes on with "Ok, were they normally kept there". If she had actually said "no one does" his response would have been something like, well do you own these cigars in the picture, or whose cigars are these, or who did you keep them for. See what I mean?

I could see it being mistaken for, 'No he does', but as the statement Agatha posted shows, Patsy must occasionally smoke cigars also. It would be unusual for someone to, once in their life, light up and smoke a cigar with no coughing, watery eyes, nausea etc.

I will disagree with your statement about the interviewer however, as a lot of the context of questions, how they approached subjects and responses to witness statements, seems like they didn't pursue things deeply enough. Maybe they had already gotten the information needed concerning the cigars. Patsy said 'no', John said 'yes'.

 

[MurriFlower]

How then do we explain her smoking a cigar at her birthday party? I see what you're saying and to some extent I do agree, but normally when the stenographer doesnt understand, there would be an> (inaudible). Murri, would it be so hard to admit that there might have been times PR lied and that not everything pointing to it, was a typo or misunderstanding (That wasnt meant as a poke, but a real and honest question). If you want us to see her as Human (I do) with human emotions than at least admit, she is human enough to lie....

Ok, well if a bottle of scotch was found in my bar and I was asked if I drank scotch, I would say no. That's not to say I've NEVER tried it. That's not to say someone might have seen me drinking cold tea and assumed it was scotch. Perhaps as PR's birthday was attended by a comedian in drag, it might have just been a joke thing, walking around bold as brass (playing a part), puffing on JR cigar. Did you ever think that if she didn't commit this crime, then she didn't lie at all?? So, if I believe she didn't do it (and I do) therefore she wasn't the habitual liar you guys make her out to be. Sure occasional inconsistencies, mistakes, exaggerations, but no out and out lies.

 

[SunnieRN]

Ok, well if a bottle of scotch was found in my bar and I was asked if I drank scotch, I would say no. That's not to say I've NEVER tried it. That's not to say someone might have seen me drinking cold tea and assumed it was scotch. Perhaps as PR's birthday was attended by a comedian in drag, it might have just been a joke thing, walking around bold as brass (playing a part), puffing on JR cigar. Did you ever think that if she didn't commit this crime, then she didn't lie at all?? So, if I believe she didn't do it (and I do) therefore she wasn't the habitual liar you guys make her out to be. Sure occasional inconsistencies, mistakes, exaggerations, but no out and out lies.

Just would like to clarify. Inconsistancies, mistakes and exaggerations, but never a lie? Never?

 

[Steely]

This is interesting. Doesn't make sense. IF she actually said in answer to the question 'does one or both of you smoke cigars', no one does, then go on to talk about the cigars in the wine cellar. Can't help but wonder if this was taken down incorrectly by the stenographer. They wouldn't have cigars if neither of them smoked them, so there would be no reason to deny it. Did they just keep them for friends? Hardly. Hmmm. We've already noted mistakes in transcriptions before, but now I'm wondering just how accurate they really are. Perhaps what she said was "John does". Makes more sense in the context, because the interviewer goes on with "Ok, were they normally kept there". If she had actually said "no one does" his response would have been something like, well do you own these cigars in the picture, or whose cigars are these, or who did you keep them for. See what I mean?

I think the way this is phrased makes it sound like "are you a cigar smoker?" Is John a cigar smoker? No, I'm not. No, he's not. If someone asked me that question I would answer the same way but you can find cigars in my home... given as congrats for a baby. I've "smoked" a couple of cigars... mostly just holding them and trying to blow smoke rings and looking goofy which sounds like what PR might have been doing. But I don't consider myself a cigar smoker and if someone asked me, "do you smoke cigars?" I would say "NO." I wouldn't offer that info up. I think LE needed to be more probing in their questions. I think PR lied about some things but in this case this doesn't strike me as her lying...

 

[MurriFlower]

Just would like to clarify. Inconsistancies, mistakes and exaggerations, but never a lie? Never?

Sure. I did say OCCASIONAL, so I was trying to say, no more than anyone else. Tell me if you've never been guilty of inconsistencies, mistakes and exaggerations, that you wouldn't classify as lies??

 

[SunnieRN]

Sure. I did say OCCASIONAL, so I was trying to say, no more than anyone else. Tell me if you've never been guilty of inconsistencies, mistakes and exaggerations, that you wouldn't classify as lies??

No, I can't say that. Hence, why I asked you to clarify.

So, if I understand correctly we have a new opinion, by you, that Patsy does occasionally lie. I don't want to put words in your mouth MF, so I am asking to be certain I did not misunderstand your statement.

Thank you.

 

[DeeDee249]

So I guess bottom line...JR said he smoked cigars occasionally. Patsy knew it. And if she said he didn't she was lying. Right?

 

[Agatha_C]

Ok, well if a bottle of scotch was found in my bar and I was asked if I drank scotch, I would say no. That's not to say I've NEVER tried it. That's not to say someone might have seen me drinking cold tea and assumed it was scotch. Perhaps as PR's birthday was attended by a comedian in drag, it might have just been a joke thing, walking around bold as brass (playing a part), puffing on JR cigar. Did you ever think that if she didn't commit this crime, then she didn't lie at all?? So, if I believe she didn't do it (and I do) therefore she wasn't the habitual liar you guys make her out to be. Sure occasional inconsistencies, mistakes, exaggerations, but no out and out lies.

Murri,

JR admitted he smoked cigars. Said he smoked them at least twice a week. Which one of them is lying or are they both exaggerating? Maybe he made a mistake and forgot that he doesnt smoke cigars? Oh I know, they're being inconsistent......

 

[MurriFlower]

No, I can't say that. Hence, why I asked you to clarify.

So, if I understand correctly we have a new opinion, by you, that Patsy does occasionally lie. I don't want to put words in your mouth MF, so I am asking to be certain I did not misunderstand your statement.

Thank you.

No SunnieRN, I did not say she lied. This is why I provided the Wiki link originally, so you could see for yourself the definition of lie. As I see you did not read it, I provide it here:

"A lie (also called prevarication, falsehood) is a known untruth expressed as truth.

A lie is a type of deception in the form of an untruthful statement, especially with the intention to deceive others, often with the further intention to maintain a secret or reputation, protect someone's feelings or to avoid a punishment or repercussion for one's actions. To lie is to state something that one knows to be false or that one does not honestly believe to be true with the intention that a person will take it for the truth. A liar is a person who is lying, who has previously lied, or who tends by nature to lie repeatedly - even when not necessary."

So, when someone writes something incorrectly, such as we have seen in the transcription of the interview, where it appears PR said, "no one does", but what she actually said is "John does" is not PR lying. Is it instead the clerk/stenographer who is lying?? Or did she make a mistake??

 

[MurriFlower]

So I guess bottom line...JR said he smoked cigars occasionally. Patsy knew it. And if she said he didn't she was lying. Right?

Do you ever read anything in it's entirety?

 

[MurriFlower]

Murri,

JR admitted he smoked cigars. Said he smoked them at least twice a week. Which one of them is lying or are they both exaggerating? Maybe he made a mistake and forgot that he doesnt smoke cigars? Oh I know, they're being inconsistent......

Maybe you have little to do today.

 

[DeeDee249]

Do you ever read anything in it's entirety?

Depends on who's saying it...

 

[Agatha_C]

Maybe you have little to do today.

Why do I always expect this type of reply? Can we stick to the topic, instead of reverting back to personal attack!

Murri,

Exaggeration and inconsistency is lying, no matter how you look at it and when it comes to the murder of your child, you dont make mistakes...

 

[Agatha_C]

Depends on who's saying it...

:woohoo::woohoo:

:woohoo::woohoo:

 

[MurriFlower]

I could see it being mistaken for, 'No he does', but as the statement Agatha posted shows, Patsy must occasionally smoke cigars also. It would be unusual for someone to, once in their life, light up and smoke a cigar with no coughing, watery eyes, nausea etc.

I'm not a cigar smoker either, although I've probably smoked one in my life. However, if I remember correctly, one does not INHALE cigar smoke, you just suck it into the mouth and blow it out, (puffing).

I will disagree with your statement about the interviewer however, as a lot of the context of questions, how they approached subjects and responses to witness statements, seems like they didn't pursue things deeply enough. Maybe they had already gotten the information needed concerning the cigars. Patsy said 'no', John said 'yes'.

I think if you read the whole exchange, you will see that the interviewer goes on with his questions as if someone has been named as the cigar smoker and PR says "he" without saying the name again. Wouldn't Haney have asked who she was referring to unless she had originally answered "John does"??

"4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, he must -- I don't know.
5 TOM HANEY: Is that taboo in the house to
6 have them?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No. He probably put them in
8 there because it was an airtight place. It was cool.
9 I don't know what you do with cigars.
10 TOM HANEY: A humidor.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: A can.
12 TOM HANEY: Wasn't like he was hiding them
13 from you?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No."

 

[MurriFlower]

Depends on who's saying it...

Ok, well why ask another question if you haven't read the previous answer?

So I guess bottom line...JR said he smoked cigars occasionally. Patsy knew it. And if she said he didn't she was lying. Right?

Just to fill you in and save you having to scroll back, this is the substance of my reply to the above question.

The stenographer transcribed "no one does" in answer to the question about if either of them smoked cigars, whereas I believe PR's answer was "John does".

Ok??

 

[MurriFlower]

Why do I always expect this type of reply? Can we stick to the topic, instead of reverting back to personal attack!

Murri,

Exaggeration and inconsistency is lying, no matter how you look at it and when it comes to the murder of your child, you dont make mistakes...

Either you didn't read or comprehended my answer, so I'm assuming you are just looking to start an argument!!

Here it is again

MurriFlower: We've already noted mistakes in transcriptions before, but now I'm wondering just how accurate they really are. Perhaps what she said was "John does". Makes more sense in the context, because the interviewer goes on with "Ok, were they normally kept there". If she had actually said "no one does" his response would have been something like, well do you own these cigars in the picture, or whose cigars are these, or who did you keep them for. See what I mean?

 

[SunnieRN]

MF, just curious. Do you have children? What have you taught them about lying, inconsistencies, exaggerations and responsibility in regards to their statements?

You do not need to repeat wiki links to me as I responded to your posting of it last time. Maybe it would behoove you to Read this. I have freely admitted I have lied, I am sure most others here would also. For you to say that Patsy NEVER lied is absurd!! And that's putting it mildly. In fact, I would say you're LYING:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie

Plain and simple, Patsy lied, on numerous occasions. She even lied about things that didn't need to be lied about.

No SunnieRN, I did not say she lied. This is why I provided the Wiki link originally, so you could see for yourself the definition of lie. As I see you did not read it, I provide it here:

"A lie (also called prevarication, falsehood) is a known untruth expressed as truth.

A lie is a type of deception in the form of an untruthful statement, especially with the intention to deceive others, often with the further intention to maintain a secret or reputation, protect someone's feelings or to avoid a punishment or repercussion for one's actions. To lie is to state something that one knows to be false or that one does not honestly believe to be true with the intention that a person will take it for the truth. A liar is a person who is lying, who has previously lied, or who tends by nature to lie repeatedly - even when not necessary."

So, when someone writes something incorrectly, such as we have seen in the transcription of the interview, where it appears PR said, "no one does", but what she actually said is "John does" is not PR lying. Is it instead the clerk/stenographer who is lying?? Or did she make a mistake??

Ok, well if a bottle of scotch was found in my bar and I was asked if I drank scotch, I would say no. That's not to say I've NEVER tried it. That's not to say someone might have seen me drinking cold tea and assumed it was scotch. Perhaps as PR's birthday was attended by a comedian in drag, it might have just been a joke thing, walking around bold as brass (playing a part), puffing on JR cigar. Did you ever think that if she didn't commit this crime, then she didn't lie at all?? So, if I believe she didn't do it (and I do) therefore she wasn't the habitual liar you guys make her out to be. Sure occasional inconsistencies, mistakes, exaggerations, but no out and out lies.

Sure. I did say OCCASIONAL, so I was trying to say, no more than anyone else. Tell me if you've never been guilty of inconsistencies, mistakes and exaggerations, that you wouldn't classify as lies??