The Verdict is In - post your thoughts here

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Because she cannot speak for herself, we have to infer, from her actions, what her "feelings" were. Other than the claims to her "friends", which have been proven to be "nanerisms", even by them, what actions of hers are you using to determine she felt "emotionally abused"?

Just strolled by to see what was up .... and AY ... ay ay ay ayyyyyy yi yi!

OKAYYYYY! <<< sips water, paces up & down, breathes ... regains control >>>>

Because .... I can speak for myself, I have to infer, from your actions [in this post], what right we have to decipher, then decide NC's feelings? What *right* do posters have interpret NC's personality .... just to fit, IMO, an ill-begotten cause?

This post may border on the inflammatory to others, I don't know. Suffice to say, digesting and interpreting NC's stance of the position of her marriage and the fear, control and abuse she felt of Brad ... may be A BAD MOVE to launch here.

We have no right to tell anyone how NC was feeling. We have *no right whatsoever!!!!*

IMOO .... only, only.

 

[otto]

I think that whether some specific actions are considered abusive varies depending on whether you are on the giving or receiving end of those actions. I am in no position to say whether NC felt abused or not.

I'm discussing the fact that "emotional abuse", "controlling behavior" and "domestic violence" were alleged during the trial. I did not see any evidence, facts or testimony to support those claims.

I have seen the prosecution turn things upside down to imply things that are not true. For example, after the verdict the Cary police had said that the defense alleges that the police are too dumb to operate a cell phone but are smart enough to plant evidence. That is most certainly not what the defense has alleged. They have alleged that the police were smart enough to deliberately and secretly wipe out a cell phone and SIM card, and someone was smart enough to plant evidence. The prosecution alleges domestic violence because Brad did not agree to his children being taken out of the country. On the surface, one might think that Brad is a terrible person for this, but objectively, he was doing nothing different than what 99% of parents would do.

 

[otto]

Just strolled by to see what was up .... and AY ... ay ay ay ayyyyyy yi yi!

OKAYYYYY! <<< sips water, paces up & down, breathes ... regains control >>>>

Because .... I can speak for myself, I have to infer, from your actions [in this post], what right we have to decipher, then decide NC's feelings? What *right* do posters have interpret NC's personality .... just to fit, IMO, an ill-begotten cause?

This post may border on the inflammatory to others, I don't know. Suffice to say, digesting and interpreting NC's stance of the position of her marriage and the fear, control and abuse she felt of Brad ... may be A BAD MOVE to launch here.

We have no right to tell anyone how NC was feeling. We have *no right whatsoever!!!!*

IMOO .... only, only.

No one is trying to interpret Nancy's feelings. I am trying to understand the foundation for the prosecution allegations that Brad was "controlling" and that Nancy suffered "domestic violence" throughout the marriage.

 

[Tink56]

That isn't true. Brad's parents traveled with Brad, Nancy and the children to Nashville in the months before the murder. I wouldn't read too much into the fact that after hearing that Nancy was missing, they were more concerned with getting to N.C. than phoning Brad. They had just traveled from Korea to Japan, then they had a call from Brad's brother, then they had to travel first home and then to N.C. That must have been about about 24 hours of air travel alone ... an exhausting few days even without the emotional strain.

I see no reason why Brad should give the name of a preschooler, his nephew, to the lawyer. That child's name would have been made public to everyone between N.C. and Medicine Hat by now. Leave the child out of it. Good for Brad for having that much foresight.

I think there is probably a lot of negative feelings between the two families. The children were taken from Brad before he was arrested and Brad was accused of murder by Nancy's family. They did not stand by him at any time, and they were vocal from the beginning about their belief that Brad was guilty. That is a rather large hurdle to overcome. Personally, I was a little surprised that immediately upon hearing the verdict, Nancy's parents went directly to Brad's parents and tried to talk with them. Brad's parents were public figures before the murder and I would say that the managed extremely well under the circumstances.

I thought I recalled comments made by Nancy's family about her relationship with her mother-in-law. Jim Lister's deposition in 2008 summarizes his recent and somewhat objective view of Nancy and Carol in 2005. It was not a happy situation. I believe once Nancy even asked Carol to leave the house because of her rudeness and negativity.

Here's the link:

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/10/03/3668365/26275-Oct._2_affidavit_of_Jim_Lister.pdf

 

[zenreaper]

Just strolled by to see what was up .... and AY ... ay ay ay ayyyyyy yi yi!

OKAYYYYY! <<< sips water, paces up & down, breathes ... regains control >>>>

Because .... I can speak for myself, I have to infer, from your actions [in this post], what right we have to decipher, then decide NC's feelings? What *right* do posters have interpret NC's personality .... just to fit, IMO, an ill-begotten cause?

This post may border on the inflammatory to others, I don't know. Suffice to say, digesting and interpreting NC's stance of the position of her marriage and the fear, control and abuse she felt of Brad ... may be A BAD MOVE to launch here.

We have no right to tell anyone how NC was feeling. We have *no right whatsoever!!!!*

IMOO .... only, only.

When the idea is postulated that the "motive" behind a crime is previous emotional abuse and or controlling behavior, one has to determine, first, if the emotional abuse or controlling behavior was occurring, correct? Now, if the ONLY way to determine "emotional abuse", is based on the THOUGHTS of an individual that cannot speak for themselves, we MUST do one of two things. One, find that it has not occured, two, determine the actions of the person to see if they are in line with a person who is claimed to have been emotionally abused.

This is ESPECIALLY true in a case lacking any physical evidence, and where the ACTIONS of the parties involved are the sole deciding factor of guilty or innocence. This is in NO way insulting or inflammatory to NC or her family. For all we know, she would have told everyone that she WASN'T being emotionally abused.

 

[otto]

I thought I recalled comments made by Nancy's family about her relationship with her mother-in-law. Jim Lister's deposition in 2008 summarizes his recent and somewhat objective view of Nancy and Carol in 2005. It was not a happy situation. I believe once Nancy even asked Carol to leave the house because of her rudeness and negativity.

Here's the link:

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/10/03/3668365/26275-Oct._2_affidavit_of_Jim_Lister.pdf

Isn't it somewhat of a long standing truism that daughter-in-law/mother-in-law relationships are often tense?

 

[otto]

I get the feeling that the topic of domestic violence is to be accepted and not questioned. Since domestic violence is alleged, and was raised by the prosectution, it is a factor in the trial and conviction. In fact, it was alleged to be such a significant aspect of the marriage that family and friends have established a domestic violence foundation in Nancy's name. In light of this, I would like to understand the foundation for the allegations.

What can be said about Brad that supports the argument that he was controlling and that he subject Nancy to domestic violence during the marriage?

 

[zenreaper]

That is just it, no one is "mashing" NC, as she NEVER made the claim that she was emotionally abused. As a matter of fact, she told friends she was NOT afraid of him. Yet the prosecution tried to make the case that she was being controlled and emotionally abused. In reality, we are DEFENDING NC's statements against those who wished to state something different than what we KNOW she told people.

The problem with the BDI crowd is that with the lack of physical evidence, they have to side with motive, means and opportunity. Yet any attempt to point out the LACK of motive, means or opportunity is painted as offensive to NC, which is not the case.

 

[otto]

Let's leave Nancy out of it, and talk about the actions of Brad that constitute domestic violence, as "domestic violence" and "controlling behavior" were themes throughout the trial.

 

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Let's leave Nancy out of it, and talk about the actions of Brad that constitute domestic violence, as "domestic violence" and "controlling behavior" were themes throughout the trial.

Thank you, otto. Thank you very much...

 

[Tink56]

Isn't it somewhat of a long standing truism that daughter-in-law/mother-in-law relationships are often tense?

I had great respect for my mother-in-law, although she was not my mother. She loved being a grandmotoher to our children. So, no I disagree.

DIL/MIL relationships, IMO, are occasionally tense, usually tolerable, and just often good or great. The type of relationship that Jim Lister describes is, IMO, a recipe for disaster.

 

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Thank you so very much. You put this in a tidy package for me. Like so many others here, I was on this case like "white on rice" from the time NC was announced missing. It was two days after I finished 24 years of Military service and was processing it. My focus turned to Nancy. Next thing I know, it's nearly 3 years later and closure.

Wow, this ride required a seat belt AT ALL TIMES. I learned so much from everyone in this forum. Mostly about myself. A good thing.

Actually ... thank you, Maja. Most of the posters here make the determination to see justice transpire worthwhile. It's an accumulated effort among a magnificent community! I appreciate your kind comments and look forward to interacting and sharing your views over time. Go well .... these trials and cases are exhausting ... but worth it at the end of the day.

Er, there's another trial just around the corner and a couple of forum jumps from here.... Michelle Young. Be welcome to join as that one sets underway. LOL ... you have a couple of weeks to re-group, re-energize and replenish household stocks (cos it's going to be gripping...).

Phew - I set my Firefox to "save settings" and NC's page opens for me. I'm changing that forthwith!

Polk :seeya:

Be blessed... Polk

 

[Cheyenne130]

Happy Mother's Day to Donna, and Nancy, and Krista and all the mothers who post here. :heartbeat:

 

[Danielle59]

I'm still having problems understanding where domestic violence fits in. It has been said that after moving to N.C., Brad wouldnt' buy Nancy a car. He did buy her a car, but I guess it didn't happen fast enough. From another perspective, we have two 27 year olds that were working prior to transferring to N.C. I haven't heard that Nancy attended any post-secondary schools, so I'm guessing that Nancy had been working for 9 years. We know that the marriage was a bit of a quicky so Nancy could live in N.C. and that within months Nancy was already looking at other men. Brad had attended 5 years post-secondary schools and may have had student loans to repay. I'm a little surprised that under these circumstances, Brad was criticized for not buying a car for Nancy. We hear nothing about controlling behavior from that incident in 2001 until April, 2008, when the separation draft was given to Brad. Then we hear that Nancy was put on a reasonable budget, and Brad did not agree with his children being taken to another country. This is then again interpreted as controlling behavior. There is nothing in those incident that spells "domestic violence" for me.

I also have to wonder if she did not have a car before she met Brad that she could not bring with her?

 

[SleuthSayer]

I have seen the prosecution turn things upside down to imply things that are not true. For example, after the verdict the Cary police had said that the defense alleges that the police are too dumb to operate a cell phone but are smart enough to plant evidence. That is most certainly not what the defense has alleged. They have alleged that the police were smart enough to deliberately and secretly wipe out a cell phone and SIM card, and someone was smart enough to plant evidence.

Right, so instead, the CPD computer gurus who were smart enough to plant and/or change the dates on the map images and to even think to change the dates on the cursor files were so dumb as to mistakenly change the dates on hundreds of files, including changing to some invalid dates.

 

[zenreaper]

Right, so instead, the CPD computer gurus who were smart enough to plant and/or change the dates on the map images and to even think to change the dates on the cursor files were so dumb as to mistakenly change the dates on hundreds of files, including changing to some invalid dates.

See, i never thought it was a frame job, I think he went to the map to find his OWN house, and zoomed in on the wrog location, and it HAPPENED to be the place where they dumped the body.

Now, many will say that is "too much" of a coincidence. But considering that someone ELSE apparently backed up to the SAME PLACE where the body was found, and walked around where the body WOULD be dumped (going with the BDI theory that it WAS someone else and because the tire tracks and foot prints did not match BC, and it had to be before the body was there, right?). Now THAT would be a coicidence.

 

[otto]

I also have to wonder if she did not have a car before she met Brad that she could not bring with her?

I would imagine that Nancy had a car before she moved to N.C. My understanding is that not only would she have needed a car to travel between Edmonton, where her parents lived, and Calgary, where she worked, but neither city is designed for walking or effective use of public transportation.

 

[ncsu95]

Just strolled by to see what was up .... and AY ... ay ay ay ayyyyyy yi yi!

OKAYYYYY! <<< sips water, paces up & down, breathes ... regains control >>>>

Because .... I can speak for myself, I have to infer, from your actions [in this post], what right we have to decipher, then decide NC's feelings? What *right* do posters have interpret NC's personality .... just to fit, IMO, an ill-begotten cause?

This post may border on the inflammatory to others, I don't know. Suffice to say, digesting and interpreting NC's stance of the position of her marriage and the fear, control and abuse she felt of Brad ... may be A BAD MOVE to launch here.

We have no right to tell anyone how NC was feeling. We have *no right whatsoever!!!!*

IMOO .... only, only.

We don't? Then what gives your or anyone else the right to say what Brad was feeling or why he did any of the actions he did, or why he murdered her (if he did)? I think people are allowed to offer their opinion on whatever the want to offer it on.

 

[otto]

Right, so instead, the CPD computer gurus who were smart enough to plant and/or change the dates on the map images and to even think to change the dates on the cursor files were so dumb as to mistakenly change the dates on hundreds of files, including changing to some invalid dates.

I don't know what to make of the computer files. The part that doesn't sit well with me is the fact that defense witnesses were not permitted to testify. I appreciated your finding of the cursor files being logged as .cur when the file type was .bmp. If I recall correctly, JW was cut off when he was about to say something about .bmp files, so I didn't get a clear understanding of whether he was going to say that they should be .cur files but appeared as .bmp files or whether they should be .bmp files and appeared as .cur files. I found the images posted on the screen in the courtroom too difficult to read, and ... bottom line ... I don't understand the computer testimony other than to know that it was incomplete.

 

[otto]

We don't? Then what gives your or anyone else the right to say what Brad was feeling or why he did any of the actions he did, or why he murdered her (if he did)? I think people are allowed to offer their opinion on whatever the want to offer it on.

Domestic violence is alleged, but I suspect people that have truly experienced domestic violence in the form of emotional and verbal abuse would disagree. Nancy was an outgoing, extroverted, well-adjusted, confident, socially active wife and mother of two young children who had the freedom to do as she pleased (except she could not take the children out of the country without Brad's consent). She did not appear to be suffering from self-esteem issues, to be unable to share thoughts and feelings about her marriage, to be isolated from family and friends, or to show any of the classic signs that we see in women that have suffered years of domestic abuse.

I think it was HP that made the comment that none of Nancy's friends realized that the time of separation is the most dangerous time in a marriage. This was tied to the domestic abuse context. The fact is that regardless of whether there is domestic abuse, the time of separation is the most dangerous time in a marriage. Two people are watching their lives and worlds reduced to nothing, and even in a formerly healthy relationship, emotions are unpredictable.