MrsPC
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I agree that "Craiglist prostitute" is a huge umbrella.
But the 4 known victims and Gilbert are all under it.
It's a solid link that cannot be denied IMO.
NY-LI 10 bodies found on Beach-Poss. SrlKlr-12/10-4 id'd; more found 3/11 #8
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I agree that "Craiglist prostitute" is a huge umbrella.
But the 4 known victims and Gilbert are all under it.
It's a solid link that cannot be denied IMO.
twocuriouscats
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Hi all!
Am forever tryin' to catch up but I wanted to throw this out:
1) I cannot for the life of me find ANYTHING that says JB's house was searched that night (or morning). Pls correct if I'm wrong, but his house wasn't searched until they had found a body or two on the beach - then Suffolk County LE said" oh yeah, these might be related" - and then they called in the FBI, and THAT IS WHEN his house was searched. If that's true, then yeah, they absolutely need to find her body before they can charge him. Even ALC's body will be too decomposed to obtain evidence IMO.
2) You can switch this around but, IMHO, we all see the connection between poor Shannan running for her life saying "they're trying to kill me" - she disappears - but guess what? In December they find bodies of craigslist prostitutes (like she was), right where she went missing...
As for MP and McDrifter, they seem to have gotten mixed up. They both went to Georgia? That's just too funny. Not really though.
JB's family have a lot of properties on LI - (if any of these are empty at any given time, he could easily be taking women and keeping them captive or just hiding them in his properties). Oh, they have downtown properties as well (can u say manhattan)? I would think that LE is searching all those properties, but I'm not really confident - just look at the reports when they found the bodies in Dec. They "said" they were searching all along OP...obviously, it wasn't that good of a search...
Finally, I agree with all that we don't have much info being released...
On the one hand, you can say JB would be a fool to kill SG that night ( or take her away, like to another property, or even on his boat)......On the other hand, you can say that it was easy to take her - just look at the response time for LE!!! I mean come on, even after GC called, it took them at best 40 mins to get there...
Glad I don't live in Suffolk County.
Oh, one other thing - ALL the girls were drug addicts - SG was known to like prescription meds, so the CVS call is not a problem for me -
What I DO have a problem with is this newsday article from 4/30. I am more inclined to believe the earlier reports rather than the latter...that's where we've found the most info IMO...
BTW, does anybody else remember SG's Mother saying " she will not be found there.."
JMHO. BTW HMD!
Am forever tryin' to catch up but I wanted to throw this out:
1) I cannot for the life of me find ANYTHING that says JB's house was searched that night (or morning). Pls correct if I'm wrong, but his house wasn't searched until they had found a body or two on the beach - then Suffolk County LE said" oh yeah, these might be related" - and then they called in the FBI, and THAT IS WHEN his house was searched. If that's true, then yeah, they absolutely need to find her body before they can charge him. Even ALC's body will be too decomposed to obtain evidence IMO.
2) You can switch this around but, IMHO, we all see the connection between poor Shannan running for her life saying "they're trying to kill me" - she disappears - but guess what? In December they find bodies of craigslist prostitutes (like she was), right where she went missing...
As for MP and McDrifter, they seem to have gotten mixed up. They both went to Georgia? That's just too funny. Not really though.
JB's family have a lot of properties on LI - (if any of these are empty at any given time, he could easily be taking women and keeping them captive or just hiding them in his properties). Oh, they have downtown properties as well (can u say manhattan)? I would think that LE is searching all those properties, but I'm not really confident - just look at the reports when they found the bodies in Dec. They "said" they were searching all along OP...obviously, it wasn't that good of a search...
Finally, I agree with all that we don't have much info being released...
On the one hand, you can say JB would be a fool to kill SG that night ( or take her away, like to another property, or even on his boat)......On the other hand, you can say that it was easy to take her - just look at the response time for LE!!! I mean come on, even after GC called, it took them at best 40 mins to get there...
Glad I don't live in Suffolk County.
Oh, one other thing - ALL the girls were drug addicts - SG was known to like prescription meds, so the CVS call is not a problem for me -
What I DO have a problem with is this newsday article from 4/30. I am more inclined to believe the earlier reports rather than the latter...that's where we've found the most info IMO...
BTW, does anybody else remember SG's Mother saying " she will not be found there.."
JMHO. BTW HMD!
twocuriouscats
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Oh snap! Hello Mrs PC!
MrsPC
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Like you, I haven't found anything about Brewer being interviewed or his home being searched that morning. He was interviewed in May sometime but it doesn't say exactly when. And as far as I can tell, they did not search his home til December. And I also think Brewer had plenty of time to get rid of Gilbert. I also don't buy his reason for calling her driver. I think he did that as a cya type action.
And on the drifter vs MP - I think they are one & the same....I think the media just got it a bit mixed up.
And yes, I read Gilbert's mother's comment that she wouldn't be found there. I think her thoughts on that echo many of ours. Gilbert *cannot* be found there or it would be a slam dunk against Brewer IMO.
jmho
Hi, MrsPC. A link is not necessarily a lead. And this link is of doubtful solidity: By multiple accounts, Shannan was clearly irrational after she left her Craigslist job. And that irrationality was consistent with the mental health and drug problems that her own family have mentioned.
1. Brewer's car and house were searched without a warrant. Several cases show that forensics evidence can survive cleaning. Apparently, no such evidence was found.
2. Noting that Shannan was bipolar and, according to her sister, sometimes delusional is not "switching things around." Your conjuring up a mass murder charge, on the other hand, requires leaping to suppositions.
3. Brewer had no way to know how long this specific police response would take. He would almost certainly know that he was known by his near neighbors and that Shannan's hired driver would also be searching for her.
4. All the victims were not known to be drug addicts. That Shannan had cocaine and prescription drug problems is, however, particularly relevant because it provides a probable explanation for the behavior described by Brewer, the driver, and the old man and the woman who Gilbert encountered.
5. Early news reports are not always the most reliable. For example, early reports about the specifics of the Bin Laden raid were incorrect in several specifics.
twocuriouscats
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Hi Chanler,
I have to respectfully disagree. While reports have said that she was "irrational" ........................................................... She was scared and thought someone was trying to kill her. I don't doubt that she was high... Even Brewer said that in his EARLY interviews...
We will never know what SG went through that night. I'm inclined to believe MP - just 'cause his statements have a "ring of truth" to them...can be backed up by records, etc. Heck, his statements could have been used by JB!
Hi, twocuriouscats. She was irrational: Fleeing from a safe ride home from a driver you yourself hired and then running away from two people who could have given you shelter is by any sane standard irrational.
And who is MP?
twocuriouscats
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You can't throw that out as an example IMO, BECAUSE that only happened a few days ago...Of course we all know that what is first reported may not be the absolute truth...BUT, there may be grains of truth in that reporting - especially since no one has censored them yet...KWIM?
MrsPC
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The problem is, we don't know what transpired at Brewer's home. Her driver certainly didn't describe her as being intoxicated or irrational when he delivered her there. You would think if she was stumbling around, falling down, having difficulty getting into or out of the vehicle or anything like that, that he would have mentioned it.
Hi, MrsPC. That the driver hasn't been quoted in the media about her condition in the car doesn't tell us anything about onset of her paranoia. For all we know, she was snorting coke in the back seat.
MrsPC
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http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/gilbert-vanishing-reaches-one-year-mark-1.2849214
Her mood was calm, Pak would later recall. "She sounded normal," he said. "Everything was OK. Inside Pak's SUV, Gilbert changed into dark leather boots and posted an ad on Craigslist, he said. By midnight, she was at her first appointment, a man in a nearby apartment, Pak said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanler [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6449087#post6449087"]
1. Brewer's car and house were searched without a warrant. Several cases show that forensics evidence can survive cleaning. Apparently, no such evidence was found.
ONE of Brewers's houses were searched - IN DECEMBER 2010, and ONE of his cars...2. Noting that Shannan was bipolar and, according to her sister, sometimes delusional is not "switching things around." Your conjuring up a mass murder charge, on the other hand, requires leaping to suppositions.
Ok, you lost me there...was I conjuring up mass murder charges? Was that how it sounded? If so, I'm sorry.
3. Brewer had no way to know how long this specific police response would take. He would almost certainly know that he was known by his near neighbors and that Shannan's hired driver would also be searching for her.
4. All the victims were not known to be drug addicts. That Shannan had cocaine and prescription drug problems is, however, particularly relevant because it provides a probable explanation for the behavior described by Brewer, the driver, and the old man and the woman who Gilbert encountered.
I think we agree on that point.
5. Early news reports are not always the most reliable. For example, early reports about the specifics of the Bin Laden raid were incorrect in several specifics.
Hi, twocuriouscats. Thanks for your note. Starting from the bottom, then jumping up top.
5. Now let me get this straight, later reports are less reliable than early reports, but this early report can't be trusted because it was so early?
1. The police have stated that Brewer cooperated fully with them.
2. You are most certainly charging Brewer with multiple murders by associating him with the killing fields. Obviously, "charging" need not be judicial; it can simply mean "accusing."
3. If by MP, you mean the driver, nothing he has said indicates that he saw or thought that Shannan had been hurt or endangered by Brewer. In fact, it was his exasperation with Gilbert's behavior, not anything Brewer did that finally caused his exasperated exit to his car. That he had previously been a witness to her mood swings has also been established.
Hi, MrsPC, thanks for the link. This quote pertains to how Gilbert appeared before her first job, not her Brewer appointment which occurred several hours later. In the article, Pak, like Shannan's sister, also specifically notes her volatility.
Pak also provides more specific details about charges for her services than appears elsewhere. He says that she received $200 an hour, a third of which were shared by him. This would indicate a fee much less lucrative than those mentioned in connection with two Craigslist victims.
scandi
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Hi Chanler, I think Twocuriouscats meant Mr Pak w/ MP.
Also, in your post " . . . . it provides a probable explanation for the behavior described by Brewer, the driver, and the old man and the woman who Gilbert encountered, the part I bolded is something I feel is very important to the investigation. It would show where Shannan went for sure after she left Gus' home.
Are you taking note of this woman Shannan encountered from Sherre's statement in the interview with 'Here Women Talk'? Listening to it I heard her say that. What is so amazing is I have heard or read it no where else. That is amazing to me as this woman could have been either the last or the next to the last person who saw Shannan alive, Dr H possibly being the other besides the one who took her.
I almost feel like I'm stuck on her. I don't think Sherre lied about her. Why is it being kept quiet when it could be such a vital part of the case? And if we don't include her and Sherre was right, we aren't using all the info to Sleuth that we could.
So when you included her, of course bells went off. :floorlaugh: I was already excited by the lively discourse here as that always helps put 2 + 2 together. Then knowing you and how your conservative way always brings us back to base #1, respectively so, I was compelled to see what you think about this woman.
Also thanks to MrsPC and Twocuriouscats for your thoughts. The three of you certainly gave the case a bit of a blast and much food for thought.
xox
Also, in your post " . . . . it provides a probable explanation for the behavior described by Brewer, the driver, and the old man and the woman who Gilbert encountered, the part I bolded is something I feel is very important to the investigation. It would show where Shannan went for sure after she left Gus' home.
Are you taking note of this woman Shannan encountered from Sherre's statement in the interview with 'Here Women Talk'? Listening to it I heard her say that. What is so amazing is I have heard or read it no where else. That is amazing to me as this woman could have been either the last or the next to the last person who saw Shannan alive, Dr H possibly being the other besides the one who took her.
I almost feel like I'm stuck on her. I don't think Sherre lied about her. Why is it being kept quiet when it could be such a vital part of the case? And if we don't include her and Sherre was right, we aren't using all the info to Sleuth that we could.
So when you included her, of course bells went off. :floorlaugh: I was already excited by the lively discourse here as that always helps put 2 + 2 together. Then knowing you and how your conservative way always brings us back to base #1, respectively so, I was compelled to see what you think about this woman.
Also thanks to MrsPC and Twocuriouscats for your thoughts. The three of you certainly gave the case a bit of a blast and much food for thought.
xox
Hi, Scandi, it's always a stimulating joy to read your posts. And, yes, MrsPC and twocuriouscats have, in my view, enlivened the case again. This is such a great community.
I agree that the woman provides a significant link. To me, that Shannan refused help from another woman indicates how frantic her probably drug-fueled mania had made her. I think that Sherre has been out of the media because her encounter (at least from what I have read) was over so quickly and, unlike the old man or the driver, she has not had a more complicated narrative to share. (In my view, the old man has presented slightly different stories at different times, not because he's lying, but because he's trying to extract meaning from his relatively brief encounter with a woman who he probably worries he could have saved.)
To me, Shannan's behavior is fully understandable within the context of her bipolarity, her cocaine and prescription drug abuse, and her job. For nearly forty years, I have lived on a block that was, until it was "cleaned up", a favorite shopping mart for johns. Joel Rifkind, I have read, picked up hookers on one corner, and Jody Foster trained for her Taxi Driver prostitute role on the other. I saw sex workers flip out, attack one another with fists and broken bottles, fall down steps (as Shannan apparently did), talk to themselves, and pass out next to my mailbox. One prostitute who lived in my building died of an overdose; she was a college graduate. Another woman, two blocks away, was murdered, then stuffed in a suitcase and abandoned in a vacant lot; this case, as far as I know, has still not been solved. Women I would see every day on my way home from work would one day just be gone. That a poor young woman in such a situation as Shannan was that morning would be imperiled when bolting in a relatively unpopulated area does not surprise me.
I have been speculating that the last woman to see SG, "EC," we have not heard from because either she does not want to be exposed to the media or LE has asked her to remain silent. Whether SG was high or not, she obviously was in a state of terror and fearing for her life. She had already called 911 and may still have had them on the line, so GC and the other lady calling 911 would have not made her feel safe. I would like to know if the lady invited SG in or left her outside while she dialed 911. If she was left outside, it is not too hard to figure out why she kept running. As we have been waiting for new information and indulging in sometimes fairly wild speculation based on information from a john who only wanted an evening companion and a pimp, oh, I mean driver, who may have been the last person to see her alive, I think goathairjones deserves a medal for the most productive thoughts on the missing pieces to this puzzle.
scandi
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ITA with your thoughts on Shannan. I think Sherre has stopped talking as LE has asked her to. She had stated LE asked their family not to talk about certain things in the case.
I'm thinking I might join that site Sherre has set up for Shannan and see what more can be learned about the woman.
I also wanted to ask you something. Even though you believe Shannan's behavior can be explained by her circumstances at the time, do you also believe something had gone very wrong at JB's home and she had been threatened by someone there or seen something that almost scared the life out of her? Might she have reacted differently to a threat if she wasn't a victim of her own circumstances ~ possibly ???
About MP, "Shannan's driver": It is only from MP that we are told that he knew SG from her days at the James Bond Entertainment (escort) company. For all we know he is lying about this and/or about other details or even about everything having to do with that evening. Maybe he was working for JB directly. Maybe he and JB had some sort of agreement.
When Shannon darted out of the house, for all we know, JB told MP "just find her and call me when you do" or maybe he told MP to take her to another house that MP had brought her or other women to before.
We just don't know if anything that Mr P reported on is accurate. He has a history of being a very shady character who is obviously motivated by the almighty dollar.
When Shannon darted out of the house, for all we know, JB told MP "just find her and call me when you do" or maybe he told MP to take her to another house that MP had brought her or other women to before.
We just don't know if anything that Mr P reported on is accurate. He has a history of being a very shady character who is obviously motivated by the almighty dollar.
scandi
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Yes, Goathairjones has certainly earned a medal for his/her contributions here. I have been so impressed with all the new locals here. Their imput is meaningful because it gives a view we don't find in the media.
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