Will the SA Introduce the Critical Missing Motive--KC’s vengeful hostility toward CA

[Leila]

This will be a long trial and although the jurors will remember CA's emotional testimony will they remember the "feeling" of it? It depends on how the trial ends IMO.

So my question is do the jurors get to use their notes when the case is over and they are deliberating? Can they use them to refer to what they wrote all those days?

YES! Once the case is concluded and the case goes to the jury to deliberate, their notes go with them into the jury room so they can refer to their notes and their impressions throughout the trial. All the evidence that's been introduced also goes into the jury room with them. The evidence they've heard in the form of audio or video, also goes with them into deliberations. If they choose to listen to the tape of the detectives interviewing Casey at Universal, or they want to re-watch any of the jailhouse videos, or Casey's call home from jail, or the 911 calls, the DVD disks are there for them. If they want to refer to the testimony of any of the witnesses, they will have the court transcripts to read.......everything that the court reporter is taking down during the testimony. They will have everything there in the jury room to examine and re-examine.

 

[bookworm474]

Can't believe what Casey says about her parents. Both parents had problems with Casey's lying and stealing. Follow the money and work ethic. Casey would resent anyone telling her that she wasn't doing what she should. If Casey fits the borderline disordered personality, she will blame, blame, blame anyone but herself. She also had a way of imitating others and not being original. If George could be home and not work, then she would think that applied to her also. I believe her biggest conflicts were with George. Follow the money. When Cindy cut Casey off from the money in March the planning started. Look at how borderlines act when they get irrational or don't get there own way. Casey likes the excitement of the attention making her feel special. And one other thing. In her core, she never felt loved. She can't get over that.

 

[katydid23]

YES! Once the case is concluded and the case goes to the jury to deliberate, their notes go with them into the jury room so they can refer to their notes and their impressions throughout the trial. All the evidence that's been introduced also goes into the jury room with them. The evidence they've heard in the form of audio or video, also goes with them into deliberations. If they choose to listen to the tape of the detectives interviewing Casey at Universal, or they want to re-watch any of the jailhouse videos, or Casey's call home from jail, or the 911 calls, the DVD disks are there for them. If they want to refer to the testimony of any of the witnesses, they will have the court transcripts to read.......everything that the court reporter is taking down during the testimony. They will have everything there in the jury room to examine and re-examine.

Are you sure they have all of those transcripts and tapes? I hope so but I read in the 'legal verified' thread that if the jury in deliberation wants to rewatch a video or see a transcript then they have to request it from the court and watch it with both sides present. [ i will go try and find the link for that post]

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6581043#post6581043"]Legal Questions for our VERIFIED Lawyers #3 - Page 24 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

Florida Rule of Criminal Procedure 3.410:

After the jurors have retired to consider their verdict, if they request additional instructions or to have any testimony read to them they shall be conducted into the courtroom by the officer who has them in charge and the court may give them the additional instructions or may order the testimony read to them. The instructions shall be given and the testimony read only after notice to the prosecuting attorney and to the counsel for the defendant.

 

[allycat1208]

I don't think that emphasizing and proving that CA and KC had a combative relationship will really sway the jury to believe KC is guilty much more than if they had a wholesome relationship. Many people have combative relationships but they do not commit any heinous acts. I have read statements from Annie Downing and a few other friend's of Casey who stated that KC was jealous of the relationship CA had with Caylee. These statements are not damaging enough to give so much credence to this attributing to a reason to murder Caylee. I believe KC had more of a reason to keep Caylee alive since her parents would probably put up with her taking their money and some other bad deeds, accepting it as a problem of a young mother, a mother in need of more money (2 heads instead of one) and a mother without a helping partner. Her parents may have felt sorry for her and given in to her because of her situation as a single mom without a good job or any job. It is true that CA and GA would have taken care of Caylee if they had to so, and this is enough reason to possibly give the jury reasonable doubt that KC perhaps did not murder Caylee.

 

[K9 5er]

If CA had begun the process of taking custody of Caylee, then ICA's gravey train was about to end; that could weigh into motive of why the "good mother" chose that time frame.

 

[Oakley]

Lee did a good job of painting a picture for the jury of the intensity between the two women during the night of July 15th. He described Casey as "combative" (I believe it was) and Cindy as equally or more so (don't recall his exact words but it was very compelling, IMO.) And then, of course, the "Spiteful *****" comment, which is very very damning, and is indicative of an adversarial relationship.

 

[Friday]

I have also wondered if the SA was going to present any evidence along this line of thought. Throughout the presentation of KC's behavior, there were hints of the KC-CA conflict, particularly from Amy who verbalized KC as calling her mom crazy and her witnessing their interaction the night of July 15. Then we have Lee, who reported that CA had called KC an unfit mother, and then there is KC stating maybe she is a spiteful beotch. This, of course, is not enough alone for the jury to have as much insight as we have had over the last 3 years. Since the SA does not have to prove motive, and we are heading into the scientific evidence leg of the SA case, I'm doubting that anything will be introduced. For one thing, the only evidence they can access is from the neighbors. The neighbors would not know the intricacies of the argument and would probably carry little weight, and objections by the defense on grounds of relevancy may be sustained. CA has denied these events, and KC can only be called to the stand by the DT. SA questions on cross will be limited to what the DT brings up on direct, so IMO, it's unlikely any of this will be introduced. Unfortunately.

I wonder....would George or Cindy fess up if recalled by the SA?

 

[Sleuth5]

IMO, the SA is doing a good job of allowing the evidence to speak for itself on that score. They aren't required to prove motive in any case. It would be reasonable to expect an emphasis on ICA's own statement regarding her withholding information on Caylee's whereabouts (the "Spiteful" comment), but pushing that to include a woman now viewed by the jury in an entirely sympathetic light would be a mistake.

However, if the defense attempts to use CA for their own ends, they will open the door to laying the relationship bare for the jury. For example, the SA let Cindy's comment that Casey had never given her a reason to mistrust her slide, but could have easily refuted it effectively. It may be that this will yet occur, but I suspect they would like to avoid it at this point as the evidence has been compelling in promoting their theory thusfar.

Always MOO.

 

[Hisimage]

YES! Once the case is concluded and the case goes to the jury to deliberate, their notes go with them into the jury room so they can refer to their notes and their impressions throughout the trial. All the evidence that's been introduced also goes into the jury room with them. The evidence they've heard in the form of audio or video, also goes with them into deliberations. If they choose to listen to the tape of the detectives interviewing Casey at Universal, or they want to re-watch any of the jailhouse videos, or Casey's call home from jail, or the 911 calls, the DVD disks are there for them. If they want to refer to the testimony of any of the witnesses, they will have the court transcripts to read.......everything that the court reporter is taking down during the testimony. They will have everything there in the jury room to examine and re-examine.

Thanks for the info!

 

[TxJan1971]

While I recognize that the SA doesn't have to prove motive and understand that the possible motives below don't prove anything, it's what I had saved and thought it may be helpful/useful to others. I'm sure I missed a lot of other potential motives, but this is a rough draft list of what I had previously put together (for what it's worth)...

Possible Motives

Link:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-casey-anthony-interviews,0,100606.htmlpage

• ICA told Nathan (Tony’s roommate) she didn’t want Caylee to be at home with her parents due to the arguing – didn’t want Caylee in that environment.

• CA’s brother, Rick Plesea, told Yuri Melich ICA hated CA because Caylee liked CA more than her.

• CA’s brother, Rick Plesea, told Yuri Melich CA went to see a counselor about ICA and counselor recommended CA “kick them out on the street.” CA threatened ICA several times that she would do this and file for custody of Caylee.

• Lee (ICA’s brother) told Jesse Grund ICA left the house 6-15-08 due to a fight ICA had with CA where CA choked Casey.

• ICA told Jesse Grund she didn’t want to be like her mom – wanted out of the house. Had love/hate relationship with CA. Angry because CA held Caylee first when she was born and CA called herself “mommy” in front of Casey.

• Tony Lazarro told ICA he only wanted boys.

• ICA told Jesse Grund she hated her dad because of all his gambling.

• ICA told Jesse Grund she hated her mom

• 5-6-08 – ICA texted NYItaliano (Anthony Rusciano) that her nanny was coming back from Tampa; the nanny’s sister was getting married, and asked Anthony if she (ICA) should “bring the little snothead”.

• ICA told Annie Downing (childhood friend) she was angry at her mother at Caylee’s 2nd b-day party.
Annie: “Caylee was, you know, opening her presents, and Cindy was doing a lot of the work for her and Casey got upset. We had discussion about it. You know, she was upset that Cindy was, you know, helping Caylee when it was Casey's daughter. Casey wanted to be the one helping. And did she say that was an issue between the two of them or a problem? I think that it's -- it was an ongoing battle with the two of them.” http://www.forthepeople.com/Downing.pdf

• ICA told Annie Downing she caught her mom signing her (ICA’s) name to e-mails or a text or something --http://www.forthepeople.com/Downing.pdf

• ICA told Amy H. (friend) her mom was “crazy.” When Amy H. took CA to Tony L.’s apartment to find ICA, Amy H. stated CA was very confrontational....angry.... massive explosion of mother and daughter.

• Lee Anthony (Brother) testified ICA said she was a spiteful bytch.
FG: Did you ask your sister why won't you allow us to see Caylee - what did you tell Det. Edwards she said?
LA: I told him she said "because maybe I'm a spiteful bytch"

• Lee Anthony: She (ICA) told me that my mother had numerous times thrown it in her face in my sister's face that Casey was an unfit mother for Caylee - and that Casey says maybe I am.... and I went on to say that my mother had also referenced Caylee as being a mistake, but the great mistake or best mistake Casey has ever made.

• Christine (friend) speaks on the phone with ICA. (ICA’s call from jail to home).
Casey - No they're not. Because I just watched the news and heard everything that my mom said. Nobody, in my own family, is on my side - They just want Caylee back. That's all they're worried about now. Is getting Caylee back.

• ICA's Grandmother (Shirley) stated Caylee hated her mother more than she loved Caylee.

• ICA's jailhouse visit with her parents where she takes her hissy fit - angry at her mother for never allowing ICA to talk, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Sleuth5]

While I recognize that the SA doesn't have to prove motive and understand that the possible motives below don't prove anything, it's what I had saved and thought it may be helpful/useful to others. I'm sure I missed a lot of other potential motives, but this is a rough draft list of what I had previously put together (for what it's worth)...

Possible Motives

Link:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-casey-anthony-interviews,0,100606.htmlpage

• ICA told Nathan (Tony’s roommate) she didn’t want Caylee to be at home with her parents due to the arguing – didn’t want Caylee in that environment.

• CA’s brother, Rick Plesea, told Yuri Melich ICA hated CA because Caylee liked CA more than her.

• CA’s brother, Rick Plesea, told Yuri Melich CA went to see a counselor about ICA and counselor recommended CA “kick them out on the street.” CA threatened ICA several times that she would do this and file for custody of Caylee.

• Lee (ICA’s brother) told Jesse Grund ICA left the house 6-15-08 due to a fight ICA had with CA where CA choked Casey.

• ICA told Jesse Grund she didn’t want to be like her mom – wanted out of the house. Had love/hate relationship with CA. Angry because CA held Caylee first when she was born and CA called herself “mommy” in front of Casey.

• Tony Lazarro told ICA he only wanted boys.

• ICA told Jesse Grund she hated her dad because of all his gambling.

• ICA told Jesse Grund she hated her mom

• 5-6-08 – ICA texted NYItaliano (Anthony Rusciano) that her nanny was coming back from Tampa; the nanny’s sister was getting married, and asked Anthony if she (ICA) should “bring the little snothead”.

• ICA told Annie Downing (childhood friend) she was angry at her mother at Caylee’s 2nd b-day party.
Annie: “Caylee was, you know, opening her presents, and Cindy was doing a lot of the work for her and Casey got upset. We had discussion about it. You know, she was upset that Cindy was, you know, helping Caylee when it was Casey's daughter. Casey wanted to be the one helping. And did she say that was an issue between the two of them or a problem? I think that it's -- it was an ongoing battle with the two of them.” http://www.forthepeople.com/Downing.pdf

• ICA told Annie Downing she caught her mom signing her (ICA’s) name to e-mails or a text or something --http://www.forthepeople.com/Downing.pdf

• ICA told Amy H. (friend) her mom was “crazy.” When Amy H. took CA to Tony L.’s apartment to find ICA, Amy H. stated CA was very confrontational....angry.... massive explosion of mother and daughter.

• Lee Anthony (Brother) testified ICA said she was a spiteful bytch.
FG: Did you ask your sister why won't you allow us to see Caylee - what did you tell Det. Edwards she said?
LA: I told him she said "because maybe I'm a spiteful bytch"

• Lee Anthony: She (ICA) told me that my mother had numerous times thrown it in her face in my sister's face that Casey was an unfit mother for Caylee - and that Casey says maybe I am.... and I went on to say that my mother had also referenced Caylee as being a mistake, but the great mistake or best mistake Casey has ever made.

• Christine (friend) speaks on the phone with ICA. (ICA’s call from jail to home).
Casey - No they're not. Because I just watched the news and heard everything that my mom said. Nobody, in my own family, is on my side - They just want Caylee back. That's all they're worried about now. Is getting Caylee back.

• ICA's Grandmother (Shirley) stated Caylee hated her mother more than she loved Caylee.

• ICA's jailhouse visit with her parents where she takes her hissy fit - angry at her mother for never allowing ICA to talk, etc. etc. etc.

ITA, TxJan1971, this would all be helpful in establishing motive if they really wanted to give it a go.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Oh! I just remembered something LDB did that convinced me the SA wants to preserve the jury's image of CA as weeping, battered, helpless, heartbroken angel of a grandma, and conceal the combative, domineering, even vicious mother KC knew at times....

When TL (or was it AH?) was testifying about what happened when CA arrived at TL's apartment July 15th, LDB came right out and told TL to stop right there and not go any further. "Further" would have been CA's opening words to TL--a hateful warning to her daughter's boyfriend, "You'd better have plenty of money, yada, yada."

Did anyone else notice and draw the same conclusion I did?

Oh, and BTW and "For the Record," my descriptions of CA and KC above are not to be regarded as a mockery or criticism of CA or a bid for sympathy for KC. I'm just trying to look through the jury's and the SA's eyes, but also to acknowledge the truth's we here at WS know to be facts. For purposes of this topic, let's all allow ourselves this same leeway and freedom.

Yes I noticed that too, but wasn't sure of the rationale for it.
But, all of CA's 'Unfit Mother' comments were allowed in, and I couldn't help thinking that if anyone had ever called me that, I doubt I would have spoken to that person again, ever. That would be the kiss of death to that relationship for me, but according to LA Cindy threw it in her face several times....

 

[CentralFLMama]

Everything you need to know about ICA can be seen on (1) her first video appearance when she was first arrested, wearing the blue hoodie- she smirks, and (2)her first phone call home from Jail.

Listen to her as she speaks to her mother from Jail, the contempt and loathing she feels for Cindy just drips off her.

That's all the psychological assessment needed.

I completely and totally agree.

 

[smart blonde]

There is an Anthony family home video that shows Casey holding Caylee, while standing in the kitchen of the Anthony home. Many of you will recognize the video I am referring to, and I would be grateful if someone could post it here, as I just can't seem to find it.

Video clip:
In a seemingly light-hearted moment , Cindy smashes some cake in Casey's face. In retaliation, Casey smashes cake into Caylee's face. It would seem the natural reaction would be to 'target' Cindy directly, but instead Casey goes after the defenseless toddler.

To me, that exemplifies the dynamics between Casey and her mother:
~Cindy 'hurts' Casey, Casey 'gets back at her' by hurting Caylee.

It may seem simplistic, but that was my first impression upon seeing that particular video when it was released a couple of years ago.

 

[Sleuth5]

There is an Anthony family home video that shows Casey holding Caylee, while standing in the kitchen of the Anthony home. Many of you will recognize the video I am referring to, and I would be grateful if someone could post it here, as I just can't seem to find it.

Video clip:
In a seemingly light-hearted moment , Cindy smashes some cake in Casey's face. In retaliation, Casey smashes cake into Caylee's face. It would seem the natural reaction would be to 'target' Cindy directly, but instead Casey goes after the defenseless toddler.

To me, that exemplifies the dynamics between Casey and her mother:
~Cindy 'hurts' Casey, Casey 'gets back at her' by hurting Caylee.

It may seem simplistic, but that was my first impression upon seeing that particular video when it was released a couple of years ago.

Interesting. I remember the video, but I hadn't looked at it in that way.

 

[krkrjx]

The State does not have to prove motive. In KC's case.....motive could be cummulative, thus difficult to narrow down and prove.

IMO, the SAO is being cautious by presenting testimony that supports motive to varying degrees.

Some jurors may identify motive as "KC's desire for freedom".

Some may see the motive of "KC's resentment toward her mother for taking such a HUGE role in Caylee's life".

Others may simply interpret that based on KC's cell calls and CA's statement that she was unable to watch Caylee the evening of June 16th, that KC snapped.
Unless the SAO has a strong manner in which to validate motive, they have done a fabulous job of suggesting multiple motives, and left it to the jurors to interpret.

BBM: This is what I have thought all along. It could be that just as CA said she could not sit that evening, Caylee may have started to fuss. KC could have reacted to the fussing combined with her anger toward CA. Sadly, this sort of thing happens all too often. I do not know that it could be proven that this is what happened but there are jurors who have raised children and no doubt are well aware of how stressful it can be at times dealing with a fussy child. I do not have reason to believe Caylee was a difficult child in general, but kids do get fussy and if Caylee was tired of being dragged around stores and then back in the car, she may have started crying to go home. Duct tape over the mouth might have been an angry mother's reaction to a fussy child who would not stop.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

Re-watched when they had Cindy stand up and look at KC to see if she looks "bloated" (omg..haha...but I digress). Anyone notice how CA directs KC to turn around and KC totally obeys? So here we are 3 years later and with KC's (supposed) no contact with her mom and she automatically responds to CA's direction? Watch the video again. I was dumbfounded that CA still had this control over KC still!
I think KC does have fear with her mom and need for her approval. Has got nothing to do with George. No sexual abuse. Just absolute envy of Cindy's love for Caylee. MOTIVE!

You bring up a good point, PattyMarie...did you notice when CA said she wasn't as big as she was back then...ICA turned to DCS and said something very derrogatory against her mother...only DCS didn't quite catch what she said...but you can see the distain on ICA's face because CA didn't concede and say something positive about her "flat" belly...:banghead: JMHO

Justice for Caylee

 

[Gma Kat]

CA's mother SP, and her brother RP as well as JG would be excellent witnesses for this purpose. I imagine SP and RP would be reluctant to testify and it is opinion, not fact unfortunately. They weren't witnesses to anything relevant to the trial aside from witnessing dysfunctional family dynamics prior to Caylee's death/disappearance...................but JG would be able to shed some more light on things for the jury.

ICA is doing a pretty good job of painting herself as heartless and bizarre with her demeanor during trial. I agree however that the jurors have not been presented with the evidence of animosity and volatility that supposedly CA and ICA had.

 

[Gma Kat]

Oh! I just remembered something LDB did that convinced me the SA wants to preserve the jury's image of CA as weeping, battered, helpless, heartbroken angel of a grandma, and conceal the combative, domineering, even vicious mother KC knew at times....

When TL (or was it AH?) was testifying about what happened when CA arrived at TL's apartment July 15th, LDB came right out and told TL to stop right there and not go any further. "Further" would have been CA's opening words to TL--a hateful warning to her daughter's boyfriend, "You'd better have plenty of money, yada, yada."

Did anyone else notice and draw the same conclusion I did?

Oh, and BTW and "For the Record," my descriptions of CA and KC above are not to be regarded as a mockery or criticism of CA or a bid for sympathy for KC. I'm just trying to look through the jury's and the SA's eyes, but also to acknowledge the truth's we here at WS know to be facts. For purposes of this topic, let's all allow ourselves this same leeway and freedom.

bbm - I interpreted LDB stopping AL because they were not allowed to discuss the stolen money etc., at this point.

I was just thinking about it, we have seen CA be combative and downright mean to very kind people as a result of this case - but who was CA before this happened? Have we been seeing a crazed with fear/grief grandmother or is this how CA always conducted herself? I read where one of her neighbors called her the ***** of the street, that the neighborhood was not fond of her....this may have been the shovel neighbor but I can't recall exactly right now. But it just crossed my mind that the neighbor who reported that CA and ICA had screaming matches described ICA as the aggressive one, and CA as the passive one. So besides ICA, who has painted CA as this overbearing horrible mother to ICA????? ONLY ICA.

 

[claudicici]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2cd_1220839753&p=1

Here is the "cake" video.It starts shortly after Caylee is playing in the water.
Not only does Casey smash the cake into Caylee's face,Cindy used CAYLEE to throw the cake in Casey's face and afterwards Casey is trying to use Caylee to smash cake back into Cindy's face.
At the end CINDY acts upset because Caylee has cake in her face,insinuating it's Casey's fault,she's the bad mother.
This video says it all,loud and clear....that crazy enmeshment that's going on between the 2,the hate,the passive aggressiveness ,all while smiling big and pretending everything is ok.
No,I really don't believe there was any sexual abuse by GA,it's just another way to throw cake in Cindy's face to use that as a defense because Casey does not dare to say anything directly against Cindy that the world would hear....I totally agree.This is all about Cindy and Casey.
Oh yes Cindy enjoyed telling Casey to turn around and show that belly...