Has the defense created reasonable doubt?

[logicalgirl]

I did see that. Again, another reason why the chloroform just makes no sense to me at all. It's excessive and elaborate, and while Casey was elaborate in her lies, she seemed to pretty much take the easy road in every other way. MOO

Chloroform is not difficult to make or purchase as a pesticide. Why deal with a struggling child if you can duct tape a sedated one? Less trouble, quicker - and a more complete task. Makes complete sense to me.

 

[GeekyGirl]

Gotta explain the high levels of chloroform in the trunk somehow. Chloroform evaporates but doesn't fly. So someone put it there. Every expert said it was there but did not know why. But you have to ask an expert a question to get an answer.

Baez did not say - to his chemists - if you poured a bottle of chloroform in the trunk it would not explain the high levels found in the carpet would it? He didn't dare.

There's another really long post in this thread I wrote about the air sampling and my feelings on it. I'd go through it again, but I have to be up for work in about 4 hours, so I really, really need to get off here and go to bed. Thanks to everyone for the intelligent discussion, I really appreciate your thoughts.

 

[GeekyGirl]

Chloroform is not difficult to make or purchase as a pesticide. Why deal with a struggling child if you can duct tape a sedated one? Less trouble, quicker - and a more complete task. Makes complete sense to me.

Okay, one more... Why go to the trouble of making chloroform when you can knock a kid out with OTC meds? Just food for thought. I like that you make me think.

 

[logicalgirl]

I think it is probably pretty clear to the jury that this is a recent story. The state talked alot about the Zanny thing and even how up until 6 wks before the trial CA thought Caylee might still be alive. I think just from hearing that about the 6wks, they can infer that something caused her to change her mind. Also, remember that most of the members of the jury, if not all, HAD heard about the case, just didn't know a bunch of details, and they all had likely only ever heard about Zanny. Also, there was the fact that they brought up that the accident theory had been brought up by CA in a jailhouse tape early on, and how YM was trying to offer up an accident in his questioning of ICA. I'm sure there's more examples, but I can't think of any more right now. HTH!

If it was me who was a juror - I would have been asking my first question as - hey! when this get to be about an accidental death and when did Zanny hit the bricks? But...how...did someone confess? No? Then...what...oh - another story..oh I see.... :waitasec:

 

[logicalgirl]

Okay, one more... Why go to the trouble of making chloroform when you can knock a kid out with OTC meds? Just food for thought. I like that you make me think.

She thought there was something exotic and sexy and cool about chloroform....that's why she researched it. It was cool. Who searches 84 times for OTC drugs - that's boring...Besides - you have to get "the kid" to swallow an otc drug, and sometimes they have the opposite effect - they don't make a child sleepy - they speed them up. Take my child for example, hypothetically speaking only of course. About the taking part.

 

[katydid23]

Maybe we aren't so far apart as we think we are, for we both give credance to Carl Jung for educating us as to Archtypes (he too studied Astrology)
and for that we are both grateful.

However, just to be on record here, as to the existence of "evil" I'd have to explain myself, (or feel I should explain), that some of the deeds done by those you point to (Night Stalker, Ted Bundy), etc. are so reprehensible that causes society to lock them up and throw away the key, and so they NEED to, protect society from those people, i.e. souls.
Yet, their soul still exists, the same as mine does.

The concept of Evil comes from seeing the dualistic world (in my opinion) in stark black and white terms, for Satan and the "evil one" has come down to us from time immemorable, yet does actually "have a beginning" in the ancient Hebrew texts as a concept and not a soul or a fallen angel. But this is "OT" to even get into.

I think it's a misnomer is what I'm trying to say here.

Not an actuality...but rather a "concept" to explain man's dirty deeds. (women's too), lol. Let's not leave them out. There are Black Widows galore in our society who "off their husbands" and even their children.

The way we got on the subject of 'evil' is because in an earlier post, IIRC, you said that we should not look at her 31 days of behavior because it was just her immature and selfish personality shining through. [paraphrased]

And I replied that rather than being immature or selfish, I thought she was 'an evil soul.' I stick to that statement and here is why. We find ourselves watching the 'trial of the century' as it is now being called in pop culture. And the media says that she is 'the most hated mom in America.' It takes a lot to gain that notoriety. Why would she be so labeled? Something resonated in society that she would become so reviled. So in a sense it is an archetype, something bigger than her. But it is also HER, and her cold, calculated, heartlessness that people are responding to.

There are hundreds of women who kill their children every year. WHY is Casey so reviled? I think it is because she was not a crack ho, or in a drunken rage, or living on the street with no family support. She had no real excuses. She had it pretty good overall. But she wanted more and was lazy and cruel. Bad combination, imo. And I think society needs to lock her up to protect society as well. Because, imo, her parents would be next.

 

[Peachy Keen]

I think LDB was right when talking about common sense in her closing. ICA lied for 31 days about Caylee's whereabouts to everyone. She went out partying, the car smelled of decomposition according to numerous sources, the death band on the hair, the canine hits, the high levels of chloroform, the bug & plant evidence, the duct tape & bags that matched the Anthony's, the lies she told to LE and the wild goose chases she led them on, the phone calls and videos from jail which show she had no concerns about Caylee, and the tattoo all combined together should obliterate any doubt of ICA's guilt.

I hope there are enough jurors that use this common sense and can get any holdouts to see the proof that is there.

 

[Chilly Willy]

Okay, one more... Why go to the trouble of making chloroform when you can knock a kid out with OTC meds? Just food for thought. I like that you make me think.

You can put a child to sleep with OTC meds but you can't knock them out so they won't suffer.

 

[GeekyGirl]

You can put a child to sleep with OTC meds but you can't knock them out so they won't suffer.

freaking A I'm going to be useless tomorrow. Not to be gruesome, but in my experience, yes you could if you gave them an OD. (Not that I would ever do that, but I've treated kids with diphenahydramine OD's)

 

[logicalgirl]

You can put a child to sleep with OTC meds but you can't knock them out so they won't suffer.

Seriously ChillyWilly, an OTC drug did not make my youngest child sleepy - she bounced off the walls. Just like if I can't sleep I make a nice cup of coffee to drink and sleep like a baby. It's wacky but there you have it. Which reminds me - I think it is time for my coffee.

And who said there were holdouts anyhow? Maybe that's just media yakety yak..

 

[Chilly Willy]

freaking A I'm going to be useless tomorrow. Not to be gruesome, but in my experience, yes you could if you gave them an OD. (Not that I would ever do that, but I've treated kids with diphenahydramine OD's)

I certainly won't dispute your experience, but that much OTC medicine could case other unwanted reactions, like vomiting or seizures, plus it would take a while to work, if it worked at all. A quick dose of Chloroform and Caylee was immediately out, leaving Casey 15 minutes to apply the duct tape and assure that poor little Caylee would never wake up again.

 

[Kitty Kat]

I don't think they have created reasonable doubt. I think they COULD have if they went for a theory a little more believable. To use the phrase many others have used they pretty much threw noodles (or is it spaghetti??) to the wall to see what sticks. What they presented pretty much tries to cast doubt anywhere and everywhere and unless they expect the jurors to believe it was a conspiracy on so many different levels just to frame Casey it is just not reasonable in any way.

If I was a juror what could have 'possibly' cast reasonable doubt in my mind is if they would have claimed it was a drowning, without adding the George was there part. They could have said Casey is a liar and she's not quite right in the head (which they did). They could have said the duct tape was put on after death because she freaked out and decided to make it look like a kidnapping because being the liar she is, who puts on a front to the world, couldn't have people thinking she was a negligent mother.. Again, "something isn't right with this girl." I as a juror would have believed much more if she would just have owned up to something...anything... instead of placing blame on everyone else but her. As a juror, if they didn't try to place blame everywhere except Casey it could possibly have created a reasonable doubt in my mind at least on the charge if 1st degree premeditated murder.

 

[GeekyGirl]

She thought there was something exotic and sexy and cool about chloroform....that's why she researched it. It was cool. Who searches 84 times for OTC drugs - that's boring...Besides - you have to get "the kid" to swallow an otc drug, and sometimes they have the opposite effect - they don't make a child sleepy - they speed them up. Take my child for example, hypothetically speaking only of course. About the taking part.

Understood. I think there's something to the 84 search discrepancy but I respect your opinion. I hate to say it but I just don't believe she cared enough to knock Caylee out. I don't think it was premeditated for very long. Long enough to count for conviction, but just barely. I think Casey was impulsive in everything she did, and this is just another tragic example. MOO

 

[miss plum]

Okay, one more... Why go to the trouble of making chloroform when you can knock a kid out with OTC meds? Just food for thought. I like that you make me think.

I've wondered that too, but the thing is, we know she researched how to make it, and we know there were high levels of it in her car, and a dead child in her car, so without knowing the why or how it is safe to assume she either did make it, or she procured it. It does seem strange and convoluted but then, so does she.

 

[GeekyGirl]

I certainly won't dispute your experience, but that much OTC medicine could case other unwanted reactions, like vomiting or seizures, plus it would take a while to work, if it worked at all. A quick dose of Chloroform and Caylee was immediately out, leaving Casey 15 minutes to apply the duct tape and assure that poor little Caylee would never wake up again.

They can, but I don't think Casey would think that far ahead. As I said, I hate it, but I don't really believe Caylee was sedated in any way when she died. MOO

 

[Chilly Willy]

Seriously ChillyWilly, an OTC drug did not make my youngest child sleepy - she bounced off the walls. Just like if I can't sleep I make a nice cup of coffee to drink and sleep like a baby. It's wacky but there you have it. Which reminds me - I think it is time for my coffee.

And who said there were holdouts anyhow? Maybe that's just media yakety yak..

Ritalin has the same effect on some children. It's actually a stimulant. In ADHD children it stimulates the part of the brain that controls impulses and behavior. In other children, it stimulates activity.

 

[logicalgirl]

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating in any way shape or form that Casey not be held accountable. She knows right from wrong, and chose herself over the life of her child. There is no excuse for that. I find the reasons for her actions, or lack there of, interesting from an intellectual perspective because I'm intensely curious about how everything works, including the human brain. That's all.

I kind of like the work of Dr. Robert Hare who is the leading researcher and documentator of Sociopaths. He paints a pretty clear picture and has creaed extensive scales of testing. Actually I find his work fascinating.

 

[GeekyGirl]

I kind of like the work of Dr. Robert Hare who is the leading researcher and documentator of Sociopaths. He paints a pretty clear picture and has creaed extensive scales of testing. Actually I find his work fascinating.

You should read the "Psychopath Test" by Jon Ronson.... Great book. Hare is definitely fascinating.

 

[logicalgirl]

Understood. I think there's something to the 84 search discrepancy but I respect your opinion. I hate to say it but I just don't believe she cared enough to knock Caylee out. I don't think it was premeditated for very long. Long enough to count for conviction, but just barely. I think Casey was impulsive in everything she did, and this is just another tragic example. MOO

Well, let's see if Baez actually brings that "discrepancy" up again in some kind of a motion, because as mentioned in another thread - I believe HHJP is :waiting: patiently waiting for a little chat with Baez about those computer searches and the fact that Baez knowingly put CA on the stand with the knowledge she was going to lie in her testimony.

I cannot imagine any scenario at all that KDB did not question thoroughly and in depth before bringing those experts forward to testiy in the trial. Baez just spitting in the wind with that one.

And pre-meditated? The time it takes between the first application of the first piece of duct tape and the application of the second piece. Putting your finger on the trigger of a gun a pulling the trigger. Pre-mediation.

 

[GeekyGirl]

Well, let's see if Baez actually brings that "discrepancy" up again in some kind of a motion, because as mentioned in another thread - I believe HHJP is :waiting: patiently waiting for a little chat with Baez about those computer searches and the fact that Baez knowingly put CA on the stand with the knowledge she was going to lie in her testimony.

I cannot imagine any scenario at all that KDB did not question thoroughly and in depth before bringing those experts forward to testiy in the trial. Baez just spitting in the wind with that one.

I don't think it was intentional but there's a huge discussion in the computer forensics thread that talks about the bug in the parsing code for cacheback... It's not as implausible as you might think.