Did the jury get it wrong, or...

Did the jury get it wrong?

  • The jury got it wrong

    Votes: 1,051 81.9%
  • The state didn't prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt

    Votes: 179 14.0%
  • The Defense provided reasonable doubt and the jury got it right

    Votes: 55 4.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 31 2.4%

  • Total voters
    1,283
  • Poll closed .
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I take offense to that. I do not judge anyone. That's not my job not my ambition in life. So please kindly refrain from attacks on me.

I am just saying we are all DIFFERENT folks. And the term "judged by a jury of my peers" is about as relative and wide-open as one can get.

It wasn't an accusation, it was a question based on your inference that people who serve on juries succumb to dreaming about getting home to their Big Macs and online games. I just wanted clarification as to whether that is something you would find yourself doing since you have suggested that is what most people on juries are susceptible to doing. I think it was a fair question and I apologize if you took offense to it.
 
That tape does not look as if it went though a decompsition of a human body. Where is the staining? did it test for apicore(sp?) or any of the decomposition acids ? Not that I heard . Why?

Don't you think that being underwater and otherwise exposed to the elements for six months could and probably would wash all of that away? The duct tape was in pretty rough shape when the remains were found.
 
Beenabobba, how I wish you would have been on this jury! Great post.
 
I like your son's idea too. This trial had opened my eyes. Something needs fixing.

The state didnt have to prove how she died, but they needed to narrow it down, was it chloroform or was it the duct tape? were the jurors supposed to just pick one because they thought she was guilty? There was nothing brought in to evidence on that courtroom that put KC with Caylee when she died..no matter what her cause of death was.
I dont like the verdict, but I can see why they came to this conclusion. Its a court of law not a tea party. they took the instructions very seriously; more seriously than other juries?? maybe..but they did do what they were asked to do. 12 people agreed on it, they were not all stupid or lazy or corrupt as portrayed here.

What???? No evidence that put Casey with Caylee??? She is a 2 year old!!! If not with a babysitter or with her grandparents, she was with her mother!!!!!!!!! This is ridiculous! George went to work early in the afternoon, did he take Caylee with him? No, it was Casey's child, of course she was with her! There is no common sense in the justice system anymore, this isnt a game of Clue, its real life. They made a huge mistake, and as much as we stress the importance of reasonable doubt, I think we should remind jurors of the importance of keeping dangerous people off the streets and the consequences that have. They seem to think a Not Guilty verdict is the easy way to make sure you arent responsible for anything bad happening to someone, but someone should remind them something bad could happen to someone based on a Not Guilty verdict. That someone is Casey's next child or victim.
 
The jury got it wrong big time. I also thing the defense confused them and they didn't know the difference between reasonable doubt and no doubt at all. But we have the best criminal justice system in the world right? HAHA, yeah right, maybe we have the best in the world because there aren't very many other systems in the world so it's very easy to say ours is the best. In some countries Casey would already be dead right now by hanging, firing squad or maybe even thrown into a swamp of alligators or something, which would be very fitting for her.
 
I was on a jury, it wasnt murder, it was sexual molestation. It was daunting and heartbreaking. We found him guilty and he will spend the rest of his life in prison. When you are on a jury and someones life (prison or death) is on the line, you take the orders seriously. We all took it very seriously, "evidence" and reasonable doubt" take on a new meaning. I cannot imagine being harassed and ostracized after sitting my time on a jury, inconveniencing my family and tossing and turning about the details. I did my civic duty just like these people did.
It was 12 people, not 1. They deserve to be respected for their time, effort and ability to take the emotion out of their verdict.

I think they confused emotion with common sense. It is unreasonable I think to assume that everyone thinks she is guilty based on emotion. And I think taking out too much emotion is a bad thing. It's the murder of a child, a serious crime. Because of emotion, should we pretend its the same as shoplifting a candy bar?
 
In some countries Casey would already be dead right now by hanging, firing squad or maybe even thrown into a swamp of alligators or something, which would be very fitting for her.

Yes, she probably would be, but so would truly innocent people. Our system is not flawless or infallible (as this verdict pretty much demonstrated, IMO), but it's probably the best in the world.
 
Don't you think that being underwater and otherwise exposed to the elements for six months could and probably would wash all of that away? The duct tape was in pretty rough shape when the remains were found.

And the experts, the ones who should know, testified that there would probably not be DNA. That is who we should listen to, not just "look" and think it doesnt look like it was on the body.
 
And the experts, the ones who should know, testified that there would probably not be DNA. That is who we should listen to, not just "look" and think it doesnt look like it was on the body.
Sadly as often happens our judicial system is not about getting to the truth but which team of lawyers can out charisamize or bamboozle 12 suceptible hand picked folks.
In this case Casey's team 'won'....and a baby killer has been turned loose on the streets.
She got away with murder.
In this case 'Not Guilty' by legal standards certainly does not translate to 'Innocent'
 
I believe in our justice system, and I'd like to believe that we get things right more often than we get things wrong; however, juries are not infallible. Juries don't always interpret the evidence and/or the law correctly; innocent people are convicted (and even sentenced to death), and guilty people are set free. As much as I dislike that, it happens because our system is not flawless. That being said, I respect the jury's decision, but I do not agree with it. My opinion is not based on mere emotion; it's based on the evidence I saw presented during the trial.

Here's how I connected the dots based on the evidence:

The Car

I believe that there was a dead body in the trunk at some point. This is based on the testimony of several people who have had numerous experiences smelling dead bodies (including Simon Birch, who has also smelled all sorts of garbage/rotten food due to his prior work in waste management), the cadaver dogs, the chemical analysis, and the death band on the hair.

Here's the thing, though: As the defense pointed out, some of the technology/science the state presented is still new, so it's not 100% reliable. If the state had only presented the hair with the death band, for example, I would have reasonable doubt; however, when you take all of those things together, it's far more reasonable to believe that there was a dead body in the trunk than it is to believe that all of the trunk evidence was incorrect. When I consider the fact that Casey's defense attorney admitted that Caylee died on June 16th, I feel even more strongly about this.

Access to the Car

The DT seemed to imply that since George had keys to the car, he also had access to it and may have been responsible for putting Caylee's body in the trunk . . . which is odd when you consider the fact that they'd been fighting so hard to prove that there'd never been a body in the trunk in the first place.

But the thing is, when would George have had a chance to put the body in the trunk? If I remember correctly, the DT seemed to try to imply that he could have done it after Casey left her car or after it had been towed, but to believe this would mean that one would have to believe that George somehow randomly found her car in a city as big as Orlando, somehow transported a decomposing body in his own vehicle, somehow put it in Casey's car in a public place where he could have been seen, and somehow later came back to take it out. That, IMO, is far less reasonable than believing that Casey put the body in the trunk, even if you only go on the basis that she had more access to the car. (Of course, there are other things that tie Casey to trunk and to the crime itself, and I'll get to that in a bit.)

Chloroform

Regardless of whether or not the chloroform site was visited eighty-four times, it seems clear that someone* searched for it -- along with instructions on how to make it. That alone isn't too damning, but it is when you consider that the reason the computer was searched to begin with was due to unusually high levels of chloroform in the trunk. If the state had only presented the computer searches without presenting the evidence of chloroform in the trunk (or vice versa), then I would have reasonable doubt on this issue. The chloroform in the trunk could have been explained away by cleaning products, but when you view the evidence in conjunction with the computer searches, it seems far more sinister and a lot less coincidental. True, there is no proof that chloroform killed Caylee, but since evidence of Caylee's dead body and chloroform were both found in the trunk, there seems to have been some sort of connection. Personally, I've always believed she used the chloroform to knock Caylee out before placing the duct tape over her nose and mouth because there'd be no reason to place duct tape over her nose and mouth if she'd already been killed by the chloroform. I think it's likely that she used the chloroform to prevent a struggle.

*I'm not even going to mention Cindy's testimony because I think the state proved pretty conclusively that she was at work when those searches were made. George was also at work when these searches were made, so that leaves us with Casey.

The Duct Tape

This, IMO, was the murder weapon. Like Jeff Ashton said, there is absolutely no reason to put duct tape over the nose and mouth of a child, regardless of whether the child is dead or alive. Some people have speculated that the duct tape may have been used to stage a kidnapping, but this did not look like a kidnapping; it looked like a murder by suffocation. Kidnappers generally use duct tape to prevent someone from making noise, so if this was a staged kidnapping, the duct tape would have only covered her mouth. There would have been no need for three pieces to cover her nose and her mouth. Others have suggested that she may have used the tape to prevent decompositional fluids from coming out of her nose and mouth, but by the time her body was decomposed enough to be leaking fluids, that would be the equivalent of putting a band-aid on a gaping wound. Her face, along with the rest of her body, would have already been leaking.

So ... did someone put the duct tape on Caylee's skull after it was already decomposed, which is what Dr. Spitz suggested? First of all, why would anyone do that? There is absolutely, positively no evidence that any of the investigators tampered with the scene. The defense claims that Roy Kronk moved the body and may have placed the tape on Caylee's skull, but why on earth would he do that? Why would he care if her mandible became detached from the rest of her skull? What reason would he have to risk tying himself to the scene -- and, therefore, possibly implicating himself -- if all he cared about was claiming the reward money? I'm also not the least bit concerned about the lack of DNA on the tape and the lack of tape residue on the skull. After all, both had been exposed to the elements for six months, so that's not too unexpected.

Basing his opinion on the "pet cemetery" testimony, one of the alternate jurors thought that the tape could have come from the burial, but that doesn't really make sense. First of all, the Anthonys didn't place duct tape on their pets' faces. Secondly, the presence of the duct tape on the nose/mouth area -- with the mandible still attached -- strongly seems to indicate that the duct tape was placed on her face prior to decomposition, otherwise the mandible would have become detached when her face decomposed.

Tying Casey to the Crime Scene

The laundry bag Caylee was found with came from the Anthony home. The remains of the shirt found with Caylee's body hadn't been seen in the Anthony home, but Caylee was seen wearing it in a photo she'd had taken with Casey. Therefore, it's logical to assume that Casey may have kept it with her in a diaper bag. IIRC, Cindy also testified that she hadn't seen Caylee's Winnie the Pooh blanket since May of 2008, so it's logical to assume that Casey also had this in her possession. As far as I'm concerned, these things (along with other things, of course) rule out everyone in the Anthony home except for Casey.

The Manner of Death and Other Things

Dr. G said that Caylee died as the result of homicide by undetermined means. She based this on the duct tape and the manner in which Caylee was found. She also said that whenever an accident happens, 911 is always called. When you take this into consideration -- along with the rest of the evidence -- it seems reasonable to conclude that Caylee did not die as the result of an accident. There is no logical reason to make an accident look like a murder.

And last but not least, we have Casey's behavior. As you may have noticed, I've listed this last. Contrary to popular belief, it's possible to come to the conclusion that Casey killed Caylee without even looking at her behavior; however, when you look at her behavior in conjunction with everything else, it's pretty damning.

All that being said, I have no idea why the jurors were unable to put the puzzle pieces together. Like Vinnie Politan said, what other reasonable explanation is there that explains all the circumstances? Many of the jurors have said that they needed a motive, a concrete cause of death, a time of death, a place of death, etc., but legally, none of those things were required. Don't believe me? Take a look at their jury instructions.

Excellent & well thought out post! Regarding "take a look at look at the jury instructions..." Many others, along with myself, have included links/reference to the jury instructions, but apparently there are some who think that it's acceptable for a jury to make up their own requirements as they see fit.
 
I take offense to that. I do not judge anyone. That's not my job not my ambition in life. So please kindly refrain from attacks on me.

I am just saying we are all DIFFERENT folks. And the term "judged by a jury of my peers" is about as relative and wide-open as one can get.

I agree with you :)
 
No Sharai, you have no reason to disagree with me at all. :blowkiss:

My post that you quoted was me bowing out of debate with another poster that really wasn't a debate at all. I was trying to stop myself from getting a time out!

Trust me, you and I are on the same page :wink:
Thanks for clarifying that for me......
 
The state never said she accidentally drown..never..they said it was murder with duct tape or chloroform. The jury was not asked to decide if she drown, they were asked to decide if she was murdered with duct tape or chloroform at the hands of KC. It does not matter at all that Jose said she drown, she was charged with murder. Maybe thats why some of you are so upset, you dont understand what the trial purpose is. the state has to prove their theory..period.. Hate to tell ya folks, a trial is not the search for the truth..its did the state prove their accusations. nothing more, nothing less.
I respectfully disagree, it is the responsibility of the jury to examine the evidence and make an inference as to guilt or innocence of the defendent. Discovering the truth is an aspect of this process. The jury seemed to understand this or else they would not have found Casey Anthony guilty of lying. I find it incomprehensible as to how they were unable to ascertain that the reason she lied had to to with her culpability.

Furthermore, the manner in which the defense team approached this trial including their behavior within the courtroom and their continual courtship of the media while they criticized and blamed them for the "media circus" they created is deplorable. I believe Jose Baez disrespected the court, the members of the court, the American judicial system, and the American public by fabricating lies, making accusations, and prostituting the adversal nature of the criminal justice system to his own advantage. I seriously believe his behavior is evidence of a serious lapse in character and personality.

The American judicial system is the foundation upon which society is established. How is this verdict going to affect society standards of behavior from this day forth?
 
Alrighty then, I think I now understand.

Peace out :wink:
Thanks for clarifying that, I believe I intended to post my response on the post you were responding to. I appreciate you clearing that up for me.
 
The judge read the jury instructions to them. They're not difficult to follow, and not excruciatingly long even though some have criticized this jury for not taking hours to reread them. They're maybe 10 pages of text spread out over 26 sheets of paper. If any juror had a question about any of them after the judge read them, it would only take a minute or two to refresh their memories by looking at the printed version.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/59297005/Jury-Instructions-Casey-Anthony

It sounds to me like this jury not only understood the judge's instructions very well but followed them.

And as to the use of opening/closing arguments by the jury... the 'accidental' thing is even part of the jury instructions, so there's nothing wrong with them addressing that in their deliberations (page 3 of the instructions).
I respectfully disagree, it is the responsibility of the jury to examine the evidence and make an inference as to guilt or innocence of the defendant. Discovering the truth is an aspect of this process. The jury seemed to understand this or else they would not have found Casey Anthony guilty of lying. I find it incomprehensible as to how they were unable to ascertain that the reason she lied had to to with her culpability.

Furthermore, the manner in which the defense team approached this trial including their behavior within the courtroom and their continual courtship of the media while they criticized and blamed them for the "media circus" they created is deplorable. I believe Jose Baez disrespected the court, the members of the court, the American judicial system, and the American public by fabricating lies, making accusations, and prostituting the adversal nature of the criminal justice system to his own advantage. I seriously believe his behavior is evidence of a serious lapse in character and personality.

The American judicial system is the foundation upon which society is established. How is this verdict going to affect society standards of behavior from this day forth?
 
apparently all you have to do to get away with murder is to deny deny deny... where's haleigh? where's kyron? where's stacy peterson? etc?
 
I really don't think the defense picked where the jury would be seated. The defense is always on the left in every case I've seen and the state on the right, when you are in the back of the room looking toward the judge. I thought the fact that the jury could see her so well would be a big negative anyway.
Actually, the defense team complained about their seating due to their concern that observers in the courtroom might be able to see over their shoulders and read their notebooks. They requested to be moved so that to their location.

In addition, having the defendant placed directly in front of the jury would allow for a possible heightened effect of peripheral persuasion, this is persuasion that goes on outside of conscious attention.” (This concept) "has been studied for decades by those involved with advertising, politics, and negotiations (Lewicki, Barry, and Saunders, 2010)." It is an indirect persuasive method by which one's perception is influenced by the attractiveness of the messenger, the aggressiveness of the messenger, the confidence displayed by the messenger, augmentative behavior, the intensity of their language, and their emotional appeal. Peripheral persuasion can trump factual data. Emotional expression is more contagious than cognitive arguments, especially if there are time constraints. "Only a very aware person or professional can resist (this) peripheral emotional persuasion." "Recent brain research indicates that the person with the most emotional expressions will dominate a group in the absence of hierarchy (Goleman, 2006).

I think peripheral persuasion may have contributed to the not guilty verdict. I think it may have been an influencing factor within the courtroom, particularly during opening statements and closing arguments, as well as within the jury deliberation process. Perhaps jurors need to be given instruction regarding this concept so that they are fully aware of this human fallibility and are better able to participate in a logical rather than emotional sequence of problem solving within their own minds as well as with fellow jurors.
 
I believe she's the one who said they felt they shouldn't have to connect the dots....in other words....look at the freakin evidence! :banghead:
Connecting the dots reminds me of the coloring books I had as a child. There would be part of an object drawn and you had to correctly connect the dots to get the complete picture. Seems like a simple concept to me.

.1

2. _.
.3 Uilty
 
Stacy Honowitz said that her law professor told her to bat her eyes at jurors and get them to like her and she would win. It may boil down to that. The jury may have liked Baez and detested Ashton for his bully tactics. Judge Siedlin said there was two prosecutors in that room and implied the judge was too obviously pro prosecution. Also, the jurors were presented with testimony from experts (who Jeff Ashton mocked extremely) and told they could choose to give any of the experts testimony weight in their decision. Because of the defense's experts testimony the jury may have believed that it was reasonable to believe that they were right versus the state's expert witnesses. I believe it was JA's behavior toward Baez and his witnesses that lost the case for the state.

That would make sense if Mason and Baez didnt do the same thing, especially at the beginning.. . Remember how nasty they were to every witness???

Baez's attacks on Amy?

Mason's comment to one of the CSI ladies saying "Excuse me, Im over here?"

The personal accusations Baez would make against Ashton every time HE would bring in testimony at the last minute and Ashton would object... Baez got really personal when defending himself those times...

If the jurors identified with Baez more than the prosecutors, it must be because he is on their intelligence lever and they felt threatened by Linda and Jeff. Just look at Baez speak and fumble and mumble, compared to Linda and Jeff (and Ann Finnell for that matter, who knew her stuff).
 
Peeled off the skull??

Where ever you heard that is wrong,mistaken or misleading.

That tape does not look as if it went though a decompsition of a human body. Where is the staining? did it test for apicore(sp?) or any of the decomposition acids ? Not that I heard . Why?

because it was in a swamp...did you watch the trial?
 
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