Conrad Murray trial -Day nine.

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't think those were CR's aliases. I believe they were MJ's. One, (at least one that I remember, could have been more) of the prescription bottles recovered by Ms. Fleak was to Omar and was prescribed by Dr. Klein.

Murray had records on Omar Arnold in his LV office. It still would be easy for CM to order drugs under a patient's name though,imo but I also think they were for MJ.

I didnt catch when the medical records first began though.

imo

 

[TxLady2]

Also, what struck me listening to the tape, was CM's demeanor. Just days prior, one of the greatest if not the greatest entertainer of all time died on his clock and he very calmly describes how he discovered he wasn't breathing. I didn't hear remorse or sadness in his voice. Very businesslike and matter of fact.

What I think people are questioning is, why would it require an IV anesthetic to make a person sleep? A person's system does not become immune to all other medicines unless they have taken so much that nothing works anymore. When he listed everything he had given him in the hours prior to his death, it was startling, because that would have been enough to knock out 6 other people. It's true that most of the drugs were for other things like anxiety or pain, but good grief! It was a horrendous amount of drugs to have administered to one person in such a short period of time, and it would kill a lot of people. Demerol will usually make a person drowsy, but it is used primarily for pain and many people are addicted to it. Some anti-anxiety or antidepressant drugs will have the same effect.

IMO, someone who requires an IV anesthetic that is normally given to a patient to knock them out for surgery or a procedure, should be in a hospital or clinic... not at home. And they should be monitored closely. And if he had been giving him propofol every day, then Michael was addicted. No doubt in my mind. Someone who has to have strong drugs to make them sleep or for any other reason, is an addict. You can be addicted to anything. I personally am addicted to coffee, I have to have it to function. That's addiction. With most people, it's a psychological addiction as well as a physical one. Doesn't matter, it's still addiction.

 

[Crosby87]

Murray had records on Omar Arnold in his LV office. It still would be easy for CM to order drugs under a patient's name though,imo but I also think they were for MJ.

I didnt catch when the medical records first began though.

imo

IIRC, Omar Arnold's progress notes were located on CM's Iphone and included in the documents his assistant emailed to Dr. Murra on the 25th of June 2009.

Omar Arnold's progress notes were exhibited in Court and Dr. Murray could easily have taken another patient's progress notes and "doctored" them simply by changing the patient's demographics located in the header at the top of each page. (name, address, hospital number).

Having an excessive amount of drugs in MJ's possession makes it appear that MJ was a drug addict who died as a result of an accidental drug overdose and not a personal choice made by the decedent.

Unless someone conducted a thorough examination of Omar Arnold's medical chart, no one would suspect foul play by Dr. Murray and normally the only time they are thoroughly examined is when they're subpoenaed.

JMO

 

[Crosby87]

BBM

I had Dr Drew on last night, but was mainly half listening, half reading here.

I may have missed Dr Drew's mentioning the AR, but when Dr Drew & guest
were discussing the condition of MJ's lungs, I got it that they were referring
to the doctor's notes (Pt's Chief Complaint) from all the times he had seen
doctors for his many ailments... chest congestion being one of the many.

Michael’s autopsy states “the above lung injury with reserve loss in not considered to be a direct or contributory cause of death, however, such an individual would be especially susceptible to adverse health effects.”

This finding supports my evolving theory that Michael Jackson knew his body was in declining health and as a result his career was coming to an end so he hired Dr. Jack Kevorkian ops I mean Dr. Conrad Murray for that purpose.

This could be why Dr. Murray said no when the insurers requested a chest examination and MJ's medical records; because if Michael selected the day of his death, there would be no point to it. I have worked with hundreds of patients and never had a patient refuse my request for their past medical records.

The conversation recorded by Dr. Murray on May 5 2009 was preselected and to possibly cover up the fact Michael and Dr. Kevorkian, I mean Dr. Murray had planned the circumstances of his death. (when, where, etc.)

- IF Michael eventually died from adverse health effects caused by the lung injury, would that mean his death was a result of natural causes?

-IF Michael died from natural causes and not the result of an accident, how does that effect any life insurance policies he may have had?

JMO

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/02/09/mj_autopsy.pdf

 

[azwriter]

What I think people are questioning is, why would it require an IV anesthetic to make a person sleep? A person's system does not become immune to all other medicines unless they have taken so much that nothing works anymore. When he listed everything he had given him in the hours prior to his death, it was startling, because that would have been enough to knock out 6 other people. It's true that most of the drugs were for other things like anxiety or pain, but good grief! It was a horrendous amount of drugs to have administered to one person in such a short period of time, and it would kill a lot of people. Demerol will usually make a person drowsy, but it is used primarily for pain and many people are addicted to it. Some anti-anxiety or antidepressant drugs will have the same effect.

IMO, someone who requires an IV anesthetic that is normally given to a patient to knock them out for surgery or a procedure, should be in a hospital or clinic... not at home. And they should be monitored closely. And if he had been giving him propofol every day, then Michael was addicted. No doubt in my mind. Someone who has to have strong drugs to make them sleep or for any other reason, is an addict. You can be addicted to anything. I personally am addicted to coffee, I have to have it to function. That's addiction. With most people, it's a psychological addiction as well as a physical one. Doesn't matter, it's still addiction.

Oh, Texas Lady, I read this twice because it mirrors my thoughts so much. Your post brings to my mind a question - how did this all start? When was it, and under what circumstance that MJ discovered Profval was his drug of choice to render him into sleep.

Was it during one of his plastic surgery procedures that he experienced this drug and loved the effects? That he saw it as a way to accomplish immediate sleep. Did MJ want to cheat the natural process of falling asleep. Or, was this a desperate measure because he could not sleep mainly from the side effects of taking so much Demerol?

I appreciate this post and your thoughts. I find it difficult to move past this very strange behavior of MJ's when it comes to medical treatment. To me it seems MJ had many dark secrets and this trial, I'm afraid, will possibly uncover more of behind the scenes of MJ all in the effort of putting Dr. Murray in jail for 4 years.
jmo

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Michael Jackson Honored With Concert

Some Siblings Object To Having Tribute During Doctor's Trial

By Michael Martinez and Erin Mclaughlin CNN

POSTED: Saturday, October 8, 2011

UPDATED: 2:14 pm EDT October 8, 2011

Kevin Myers/CNN

CARDIFF, Wales (CNN) -- As his physician stands trial in his death, Michael Jackson was honored halfway around the world Saturday in a concert in Cardiff, Wales.

Michael Jackson's three children -- Prince, Paris and Blanket -- were attending the concert and were scheduled to appear on stage later in the show for an acknowledgment from the more than 40,000 persons in attendance, a concert spokeswoman told CNN.

Said Jackson brother Tito, who will be performing in the show, about the three children: "Yes, they have a small piece in the show and they are all here to enjoy the evening."

Another sibling performer, Marlon Jackson, said the event commemorated Michael Jackson's life.

"The message today is have a great time and remember him as a positive person and all the different things that he stood for -- not just his music but the human side of him"...

http://www.clickondetroit.com/entertainment/29427078/detail.html

 

[21merc7]

Dr. Adams did say that Murray has been trying to get someone to use Propofol on MJ since 2007 but he couldn't find anyone to do it.

IMO

respectfully snipped

WHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTT!

Murray was trying to get MJ on propofol???!!!!! Holy Moly!

 

[panthera]

Yes, even the DT has proven Murray is guilty when they admit he left the room.

No doctor in their right mind leaves drugs accessible to an addict and completely leaves them alone. That is like giving a box of matches to an arsonist and watching them as they burn a home to the ground.

Although I don't believe the hogwash about MJ ingesting or injecting the propofol. That is just a convenient blame the victim argument being used in hopes of getting a very guilty client off. Imo, it will not fly.

Common sense will rule the day.

Agree. Also, from what I understand, Propofol is fast-acting, therefore would MJ even be able to ingest or inject himself? What makes this case so disgusting, in my opinion, is this doctor trying to pass responsibility onto his patient. Especially if MJ was addicted to Propofol, the doctor leaving him alone with it is negligence in itself. If Murray was "in over his head" he should never have begun administering anesthesia. The responsibility lies completely with the care provider and no one else, even if MJ would have gotten the drugs somewhere else. Then so be it. Murray didn't have to administer them knowing the potential results.

MOO

 

[Talina]

I actually think he died closer to 10:40 am after Murray gave him the propofol improperly and it flooded his system shutting down his breathing leading to cardiac arrest.

I think Murray knew propofol worked and he was 'asleep' so he stepped away and did other things and after maybe taking a short nap started talking to his ladies..etc and then went back in and found MJ who had long been dead.

In his interview he does mention he looked at his watch and kept up with the times and there may have been a clock in the bedroom too.

IMO

BBM

That flies right in the face of what he told ER physicians that have already testified - that he had no watch and had no concept of time, therefore could not tell them when he administered any drugs.

I hope the jury is able to pay attn to all the inconsistencies in what he told ER and EMS versus what he told the detectives in his interview.

 

[panthera]

BBM

That flies right in the face of what he told ER physicians that have already testified - that he had no watch and had no concept of time, therefore could not tell them when he administered any drugs.

I hope the jury is able to pay attn to all the inconsistencies in what he told ER and EMS versus what he told the detectives in his interview.

BBM

Another reckless, negligent act. Times of administration, along with dosages, should always be documented.

MOO

 

[Crosby87]

The fact Dr. Murray wasn't monitoring MJ's vital signs tells me Michael isn't a victim of foul play and it was MJ's choice to die. Alot of people chose to die in the comfort of their own home.

Whether or not it was Michael's decision to end his own life doesn't matter, it is illegal for a doctor to "kill" his patient so Dr. Murray will be held accountable for MJ's death and he won't be found 'not guilty' imo.

No alcohol was found in Michael’s bloodstream but I wonder how the drugs Michael Jackson took before he died affected his ability to cross over?

One reason I abstain from drugs and alcohol is because I don’t want to be ‘dazed and confused’ when I die.

I have studied what happens after death and know any illnesses or physical limitations a person had prior to death disappear and you reside in a state of perfection and wholeness.

JMO

 

[Lqqkout]

The fact Dr. Murray wasn't monitoring MJ's vital signs tells me Michael isn't a victim of foul play and it was MJ's choice to die. Alot of people chose to die in the comfort of their own home.

Whether or not it was Michael's decision to end his own life doesn't matter, it is illegal for a doctor to "kill" his patient so Dr. Murray will be held accountable for MJ's death and he won't be found 'not guilty' imo.

No alcohol was found in Michael’s bloodstream but I wonder how the drugs Michael Jackson took before he died affected his ability to cross over?

One reason I abstain from drugs and alcohol is because I don’t want to be ‘dazed and confused’ when I die.

I have studied what happens after death and know any illnesses or physical limitations a person had prior to death disappear and you reside in a state of perfection and wholeness.

JMO

There is no way MJ wanted to die. He had big plans. Watch "This is it" and so how excited he was to begin his new tour. And he wanted to build a hospital for children. Does not sound like someone who wanted to die. No way, no how. I think MJ had a very active metabolism to keep up the schedule he was under and could not sleep ever. I know of 2 people who have tried everything and still can't sleep. It's in their makeup. imo

 

[Lqqkout]

I have been watching from day 1 and am confused about how many bags were hanging on the iv pole. We have heard 2 people testify the bottle of propofol was inside a saline bag. We have heard that Dr. Murry asked (forget his name) to unhook that particular bag and put it in another bag. The coroner's investigator testified the bottle was found in the bag, but foolish her, she did not photograph the setup. The toxicologist today testified he ONLY tested one bag, the one with pure saline in it. What about the second bag allegedly containing a bottle of propofol? This one was never tested or what? Of course the saline bag and tubing would show no evidence of drugs if a second bag containing the propofol was connected at the y connection where evidence of drugs were found. I must be missing something here because no testimony of the alleged bag including the bottle of propofol was tested by their toxicologist. Why not? What am I missing? What happened with the saline bag with the bottle of propofol allegedly in it? Can anyone set me straight regarding the second bag that was removed from the pole and hidden? tia

Can anyone opine on my question above (posted a couple of days ago)

 

[legalmania]

I've been speed viewing the trial. Now did Conrad perform surgery on anyone? I can picture his operating room with a psychic in one corner and a coach with a stop watch in the other. Another thing even if MJ in his stoned out condition was able to get up, isn't it still negligent to leave medication of such intensity, left laying around knowing children are in the house. I just find it strange that within two months of this guys care MJ was found dead.

 

[legalmania]

Can anyone opine on my question above (posted a couple of days ago)

As far as I can remember the bodyguard said there were two IVs hanging. One was just saline but the second was saline cut with a bottle inside. He was asked by Conrad to remove it and put it in another bag. Unfortunately the lady who was sent from the corners office was not experienced enough and instead of photographing the bag with everything in it first and preserving evidence the way it was, just took it out of the bag and by memory put it on top of a table the way it was in the bag and photographing it, but she testified that it was like that in the bag. Which IMO was not good for the prosecution. It's those little mistakes that cause reasonable doubt.

 

[borndem]

I actually think he died closer to 10:40 am after Murray gave him the propofol improperly and it flooded his system shutting down his breathing leading to cardiac arrest.

I think Murray knew propofol worked and he was 'asleep' so he stepped away and did other things and after maybe taking a short nap started talking to his ladies..etc and then went back in and found MJ who had long been dead.

In his interview he does mention he looked at his watch and kept up with the times and there may have been a clock in the bedroom too.

IMO

ITA, ocean - My estimate was that MJ was dead by 11:30, but your time may be more accurate -- I guess there's no way we'll ever know.... I wonder if the Coroner would have any idea since he performed the autopsy on the morning of 6/26 -- as to rigor, lividity, livor or whatever tools/measurements (if any exist) might be available. OTOH, the telephone evidence might be enuff in itself to send him to the slammer....

Yeah, I think CM was feeling fairly confident that MJ was okay, so CM went to do his own business & catching up with the other sleazy (IMO) side of his life. I mean, you know, he had already given MJ the whole night already!! It was his turn to have his own time, right???

And I wonder what CM's true feelings were about MJ. Did he truly love him, or was he resentful of all that MJ had? CM had come up hard, worked hard, magna *advertiser censored* laude as a college graduate, etc., etc. MJ certainly wasn't born with a silver spoon, either, but look what he had accumulated. But Michael had also worked hard. His daddy had him out on the street by the time he was, what? 6 or 7 years old? and with that huge talent. And the family hooked their stars to his coattails, etc, etc., and never let go.

 

[borndem]

BBM

That flies right in the face of what he told ER physicians that have already testified - that he had no watch and had no concept of time, therefore could not tell them when he administered any drugs.

I hope the jury is able to pay attn to all the inconsistencies in what he told ER and EMS versus what he told the detectives in his interview.

bbm ITA - my thoughts exactly, Talina!

Dr. Cooper is subject to recall in this case, as are so many of them, and her account was lucid and straightforward, and she has no reason to lie. Her account did differ a bit from CM's, as I think we all noticed. We may just see her again. I'm sure, if she heard his interview, she would be rarin' to go, too. :maddening:

 

[Only4Justice]

I don't trust one thing about Dr. Murray. I think he lies every time his mouth opens.

OBE... ITA with your statement about CM.

think about this. Remember when OJ gave an 'interview' with the cops after the brutal murders.......same with MR. Confident, Scott Peterson. IMO, these three talked to the cops, gave the interviews, because they thought/think they can talk there way out of anything, IMO. :waitasec:

 

[Crosby87]

Because plenty of urine was in the bottle next to the bed, this proves MJ was not dehydrated Thursday morning when he “allegedly” called CM.

In the interview played in Court on Friday, Dr. Murray said he gave Propofol to Michael every day for months and Nicole Alvarez said Dr. Murray left at 9 pm everyday to go to Michael’s; so CM was already at MJ’s residence and this phone call by MJ to CM at 1 am never took place.

To date there has been no proof presented in Court to prove Michael made this call to Dr. Murray and Dr. Murray answered it. Therefore I don’t believe this conversation took place which supports my theory CM and MJ planned Michael’s death in advance.

Elissa Fleak stated in her narrative report,

“I spoke with Detective S. Smith from the LAPD and he reported that on the early morning of 6/25/ 2009 (Thursday), the decedent placed a call to his primary physician, cardiologist Dr. Conrad Murray. The decedent complained of being dehydrated and not able to sleep. Dr. Murray went to the decedent’s residence and administered medical care.”

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/02/09/mj_autopsy.pdf

 

[Talina]

Because plenty of urine was in the bottle next to the bed, this proves MJ was not dehydrated Thursday morning when he “allegedly” called CM.

In the interview played in Court on Friday, Dr. Murray said he gave Propofol to Michael every day for months and Nicole Alvarez said Dr. Murray left at 9 pm everyday to go to Michael’s; so CM was already at MJ’s residence and this phone call by MJ to CM at 1 am never took place.

To date there has been no proof presented in Court to prove Michael made this call to Dr. Murray and Dr. Murray answered it. Therefore I don’t believe this conversation took place which supports my theory CM and MJ planned Michael’s death in advance.

Elissa Fleak stated in her narrative report,

“I spoke with Detective S. Smith from the LAPD and he reported that on the early morning of 6/25/ 2009 (Thursday), the decedent placed a call to his primary physician, cardiologist Dr. Conrad Murray. The decedent complained of being dehydrated and not able to sleep. Dr. Murray went to the decedent’s residence and administered medical care.”

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/02/09/mj_autopsy.pdf

BBM

In earlier testimony, security already testified that Dr. Murray was at the residence by the time they returned from rehearsal and that was normal. I believe I recall the testimony being that was one of the "prep" things that was on the list (so to speak) as far as making sure Dr. Murray was at the residence before Michael would return from a rehearsal.

In the bold part above, I do agree that is what was said but I noticed that Dr. Murray does not speak as though English is his first language (at least to me). To call someone doesn't necessarily mean you pick up the phone and place a call. It can also mean to summon them to your side if they are in a different room. Dr. Murray could have meant MJ called out to him and just used the word called him, instead saying it slightly differently.

It could be the detective interpreted just as you did when Dr.Murray said he was called by MJ and that is how the detective then passed that on to Ms. Fleak. Remember that this was before their interview with security. The detectives would not have known until security interviews that Dr. Murray was already there so they wouldn't have even thought in the interview to ask clarifying questions of Dr. Murray to that type of wording he used about a call.

I do not believe for one second MJ intended to commit suicide. The video in This is It shows to me a man who is driven to put on a spectacular performance, not one that is depressed with suicidal thoughts. Granted, there was the concerned phone call from his manager to the Dr. and the emails regarding concern about MJ. But do not forget the May 10 recording of MJ in an inebriated/altered (from something) state wherein he is talking about how good he wants the concert to be and how he plans to build a children's hospital. I suspect, if, in his heart and mind he planned on suicide, that is what we would have heard him talking about in that altered state, not the desire for success of his concert and his dream of a children's hospital. We would have heard despair to go on and desire to end things and I'll go out on a limb here and say Dr. Murray has NOTHING at all whatsoever (writing, video, or audio recording of or from MJ) to show MJ was contemplating suicide. IMO

ETA: I'm also very curious about that May 10 video. It was recorded on a Sunday morning at around 9am. Flanagan flippantly said "that's what happens when Dr. Murray isn't there to take care of him" to JVM when she asked him his thoughts about that excerpt that was played early on. Well Mr.Flanagan are you suggesting he arrived to MJ's residence at 9am and found him in that state? From testimony from Ms. Alvarez, she said he was usually getting home after being at MJs all night around 9, 10, 11am in the mornings. So, who actually put him in that state to begin with and if your (Flanagan) stance is that MJ did it to himself while Dr. Murray was there but MJ was able to sneak the drugs, then it didn't do much good that Dr. Murray was there, did it?

I wonder if there are cell phone records that will show his phone activity and cell tower pings that day at a range of time for that evening so we can see if Dr. Murray was there the entire night before the morning of that recording.