Conrad Murray trial -Day nine.

[borndem]

From comments by reporters during or after my watching the meeting between LAPD and the good doctor, it was said that CM was not, or is no longer, board-certified in either his specialty, Internal Medicine, nor his sub-specialty, Cardiology. That is very unusual and/or a bit suspicious. Here is some general reading about certification:



What Is Medical Board Certification?
Why Is It Important for a Doctor to Be Board Certified?

By Trisha Torrey, About.com Guide
Updated September 23, 2011


A medical "board" is an organization that doctors become a part of by meeting the requirements for membership. Whether that doctor is a specialist, or is a primary care physician, the doctor may decide that demonstrating that level of competency will enhance her esteem among colleagues and patients. It will improve her career standing as well.
Approximately 90% of all practicing physicians in the U.S. are board-certified. While being board-certified guarantees a doctor has met a minimum competency requirement, the same cannot be said for those who are not board-certified. Non-certified doctors may be more or less competent. They may not be board-certified because they have not made application for their certification credential, because they have been turned down for membership, or because they have lost the credential for failing to continue meeting the minimum requirements...."

http://patients.about.com/od/doctorsandproviders/a/boardcertificat.htm

BBM
It stuck me as quite unusual when I heard it because not being board-certified is just plain odd. My DH, who has been in Cardiology research for over 30 years heard the reporter comments and remarked that non-certification can keep physicians out of some hospitals and such a doctor is not a good candidate for being able to join a medical practice.

Even an Internist (Internal Med. Specialist) who knows he/she is going on to pursue a sub-specialty such as cardiology, oncology, gastroenterology, infectious diseases, etc., etc., gets board-certified in Internal Medicine and then in his/her subspecialty because that's the way it is done. Certainly, hospitals want their staff or those to whom the hospital gives admitting privileges to be certified.

Not to be certified is viewed as sub-standard and possibly suspicious....

Did anyone else hear the remarks about his not being board-certified? The reporters did not dwell on it since they didn't have time for many remarks, but DH and I both heard it...

If the reporters were being factual about this, it is certainly bothersome.... and sad.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Michael told Dr. Murray he wanted to build a children’s hospital with a movie theatre and a game room because it would help cure depression; but the treatment MJ received from medical doctors and his long-standing career in the entertainment field was only able to offer him temporary relief from depression; not cure it, which was necessary in order to save his life.

Therefore, the children’s hospital MJ said he wanted to build with entertainment facilities in order to cure depression would only provide the patients with temporary relief as well and even though MJ stated emphatically, “God wants me to do this”, I can’t see what difference or contribution this medical facility really had to offer.

JMO

He wanted to build the hospital but he knows sick children can get very depressed there but if they also had a movie theater and a game room it would be a way to take these sick children's mind off of their illiness and many do suffer from depression.

I understood what he wanted to do perfectly.

I remember when my son was little he had pneumonia and he was so lethargic... it broke my heart to see him so sick, but he perked up when he knew Santa Claus would be coming to see the children that night and he brought him a little game. He even managed to smile.

Healing is not just physical but it is mental as well. Body, mind and spirit. The happier children can be it helps get their minds off of what they are facing.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

ITA, ocean - My estimate was that MJ was dead by 11:30, but your time may be more accurate -- I guess there's no way we'll ever know.... I wonder if the Coroner would have any idea since he performed the autopsy on the morning of 6/26 -- as to rigor, lividity, livor or whatever tools/measurements (if any exist) might be available. OTOH, the telephone evidence might be enuff in itself to send him to the slammer....

Yeah, I think CM was feeling fairly confident that MJ was okay, so CM went to do his own business & catching up with the other sleazy (IMO) side of his life. I mean, you know, he had already given MJ the whole night already!! It was his turn to have his own time, right???

And I wonder what CM's true feelings were about MJ. Did he truly love him, or was he resentful of all that MJ had? CM had come up hard, worked hard, magna *advertiser censored* laude as a college graduate, etc., etc. MJ certainly wasn't born with a silver spoon, either, but look what he had accumulated. But Michael had also worked hard. His daddy had him out on the street by the time he was, what? 6 or 7 years old? and with that huge talent. And the family hooked their stars to his coattails, etc, etc., and never let go.

Actually in his interview with police I picked up that he was jealous of MJ and resented him. I did not care for his tone at all.

I would say MJ worked harder than most anyone has to do to make a living for the entire huge family he had who always had their hand out except Janet. He had been used as a workhorse starting at such a very young age. His daddy taking him and the others into bars to sing and dance when they were so little. It really is a sad story.

I think Murray really messed the TOD up from the get go by saying he found a pulse (which I do not believe). Now in the interview he is even saying MJ had a heartbeat (I dont believe that lie either) At that time people were believing CM even though one EMT had his doubts about how long he had been dead.

By the time the EMT wrote his report up in a couple of days the autopsy had already been done so I doubt they did a liver punch and that is really the only way to determine TOD closely.

And then those pesky variables can get in the way too. We have heard the room was warm which also can push back livor mortis and the body sinking down in the fluffy bed cover would also make the body retain body heat skewing the TOD.

But personally I think what went wrong ......went wrong immediately and I don't know if he didn't check the line or the clip closely or not but I think the entire bottle of propofol flooded into his system and he was dead in a minute or two after then. That is why I think the 10:40 am-10:45 am time line makes more sense to me.

That is why MJs eyes were already fixed and dilated and ALSO DRY! Even with the bed covers by then his body was cool to the touch.

ETA: Oh he is not board certified so the reporters are right.

Just my opinion though.

 

[borndem]

(Snipped & Bolded By Me)

I appreciate your opinion, but a lot of people, who claim to have had a rotten childhood because their
parents did not have good parenting skills or were abusive, become the opposite & are very good parents.

My opinion stems from my own experience. Although they weren't deliberately abusive,
I don't think my parents were very good parents at all.

They believed "Children should be seen and not heard". Actually, it seems we were not seen nor heard &
not appreciated. We were not encouraged to be creative or to play or to form opinions or have feelings....

... IOW, it seems to me, that my 3 sibs and I were never allowed to just be children.

As I grew up and had my own children, I wanted to be everything that my parents were not.
And, not be some things that they were!

I loved encouraging my 3 sons, at all stages of their lives, from their toddler years, to be artistic,
creative and to voice whatever opinions & feelings they had, without being told they were wrong.

I tend to see Michael being that same sort of parent. From the videos I've seen (mostly at U-Tube)
of him with his children, he is a very good parent. Even when he had them wearing their masks in public,
it looks like they were all playing games.

I am proud to say that my 3 sons were never in trouble with the law or with drugs, they all 3 made excellent grades,
all 3 graduated from college and all 3 are very successful now as adults.

Way to go, peace-Mom!! That's how the world gets changed -- one (or 3) person(s) at a time!! Bless you.

I have the same impression of MJ as a good & creative parent as you stated -- I think some of it is due to his being so very child-like (NOT childish, please note), so soft spokenand loving, so artistic -- can you imagine a make-believe story he could tell?! His missing out on some things while he was on tour & on-stage that other kids had -- playing in a playground, in a tree house, hide-and-seek, Old Maid, Super Mario Brothers, cowboys & Indians, tag, etc., etc., etc., happened, I think, and sometimes the simplest things are the most fun. Seeing the world was a wonderful thing for MJ to experience, but a Cub Scout camp-out would be a great adventure, too.

 

[EPfan]

He wanted to build the hospital but he knows sick children can get very depressed there but if they also had a movie theater and a game room it would be a way to take these sick children's mind off of their illiness and many do suffer from depression.

I understood what he wanted to do perfectly.

I remember when my son was little he had pneumonia and he was so lethargic... it broke my heart to see him so sick, but he perked up when he knew Santa Claus would be coming to see the children that night and he brought him a little game. He even managed to smile.

Healing is not just physical but it is mental as well. Body, mind and spirit. The happier children can be it helps get their minds off of what they are facing.

IMO

You are so right. When my son was 1 1/2 he was so very sick, the hospital had a really big bright play room, with all kinds of toys and little things to ride, books you name it they had it. He was so weak that he could barely stand up and we would take him to the play room and set him down on a rug and he would just light up and smile and laugh. It brings tears to my eyes just thinking about it. It does help in the healing mentally which also effects the depression part of it.

 

[borndem]

Blue By Borndem -

Actually in his interview with police I picked up that he was jealous of MJ and resented him. I did not care for his tone at all.

I saw and heard that, too. It was just under the surface, but it was there, wasn't it? Staying in MJ's home (albeit rented) night after night probably did nothing to lessen it. Mahogany everywhere, a dressing room that looked like a store on Rodeo drive... understandable for someone who really had to work hard to improve his circumstances (MJ's early work notwithstanding...). CM wanted some of that.


I would say MJ worked harder than most anyone has to do to make a living for the entire huge family he had who always had their hand out except Janet. He had been used as a workhorse starting at such a very young age. His daddy taking him and the others into bars to sing and dance when they were so little. It really is a sad story.

Wolfgang Mozart's father did the same thing. He saw what a prodigy Mozart was, and he put him on the street when he was 6 years old. Mozart was somewhat sickly, and some biographers think that he caught some type of TB when he was very young and was never able to have the time to recover from it. He died at the age of 35. MJ's early life has always made me think of Mozart in this regard.

I think Murray really messed the TOD up from the get go by saying he found a pulse (which I do not believe). Now in the interview he is even saying MJ had a heartbeat (I dont believe that lie either) At that time people were believing CM even though one EMT had his doubts about how long he had been dead.

By the time the EMT wrote his report up in a couple of days the autopsy had already been done so I doubt they did a liver punch and that is really the only way to determine TOD closely.

And then those pesky variables can get in the way too. We have heard the room was warm which also can push back livor mortis and the body sinking down in the fluffy bed cover would also make the body retain body heat skewing the TOD.

Yeah, I was hoping, since the M.E. got the body relatively quickly, that a liver probe could have been done. That stat would have been interesting -- oh, well.

But personally I think what went wrong ......went wrong immediately and I don't know if he didn't check the line or the clip closely or not but I think the entire bottle of propofol flooded into his system and he was dead in a minute or two after then. That is why I think the 10:40 am-10:45 am time line makes more sense to me.

OMG, ocean, that never occurred to me, but it makes tons of sense. Oh my stars, how tragic. And how inept, incompetent, and irresponsible. And certainly that would do it with no chance of recovery.

Does the amount of Propofol in the Tox report support that amount of Propofol being taken into his system? I have no idea how the mg's. going into his system compare to the amounts in the blood, urine, liver, vitreous, etc. If so, seems to me, that that would be a whopper of a dose. Wow! And if so, you know CM just had to be in a pure, wild panic. No wonder he was sweating so. Somebody should have checked HIS b.p. and respirations....

.



That is why MJs eyes were already fixed and dilated and ALSO DRY! Even with the bed covers by then his body was cool to the touch.

ETA: Oh he is not board certified so the reporters are right.

Just my opinion though.

Wow -- a Big Thanks :tyou: for your reply, oceanblueeyes.

[O/T: Are you a Marine :usa: or a Marine Spouse? (If you care to answer.) We spend a lot of time at Morehead City, NC...]

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Blue By Borndem -




Wow -- a Big Thanks :tyou: for your reply, oceanblueeyes.

[O/T: Are you a Marine :usa: or a Marine Spouse? (If you care to answer.) We spend a lot of time at Morehead City, NC...]

Ah, no thank you. I enjoy reading your posts. They make me think which is a good thing. So many great posters here at WS.

We have four daughter and only one son. He is our youngest.

Our son was in the Marine Corps for 12 years until he was offered a civilian job he could not refuse.

BUT he will always be a Marine in his heart. Always. So I have this signature line to always honor his exemplary service and all the other Marines that fight so selflessly for our freedoms.

I believe I remember going to Morehead City one time when he and his air crew were placing a old civil war cannon in a park area there that had to be brought in by the CH-53 Super Stallion Helicopter.

Well goodnight everyone!

I guess we will have the rest of the taped statement played first thing in the morning.

ETA: They did say the amount found was enough for a major 8 hour surgery so that is a whole lot of propofol and we dont know if the bottle was completely full or not. It sure wasnt 25 mg which would have only kept him under around four minutes.

 

[borndem]

Hmmmm, oceanblueeyes, enough to keep someone under for an 8-hour surgery......

That's a mighty lot of that stuff,huh? Seems like lots & lots to me.... especially if MJ only wanted a couple of hours of sleep. (Maybe the good doctor meant to say, "2500 mgs" -- ya think?!) ...... Either that's how much it normally would take to get him to sleep all night -- but using a drip over several hours' time, or CM fouled-up the dose, or the drip became a drowning downpour, as you said. Any one of which was curtains for that trusting little man. It's just such an unfortunate waste leaving 3 children without their only parent. So now they will be raised by his parents.... Hmmmm...

I wonder how his estate is set up... I hope he had a better estate attorney that he did a PMD.

And, ocean -- I understand what you meant about your son -- "Once a Marine, always a Marine!"

Goodnight and Semper Fi!

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Hmmmm, oceanblueeyes, enough to keep someone under for an 8-hour surgery......

That's a mighty lot of that stuff,huh? Seems like lots & lots to me.... especially if MJ only wanted a couple of hours of sleep. (Maybe the good doctor meant to say, "2500 mgs" -- ya think?!) ...... Either that's how much it normally would take to get him to sleep all night -- but using a drip over several hours' time, or CM fouled-up the dose, or the drip became a drowning downpour, as you said. Any one of which was curtains for that trusting little man. It's just such an unfortunate waste leaving 3 children without their only parent. So now they will be raised by his parents.... Hmmmm...

I wonder how his estate is set up... I hope he had a better estate attorney that he did a PMD.

And, ocean -- I understand what you meant about your son -- "Once a Marine, always a Marine!"

Goodnight and Semper Fi!

MJ was a very savvy business man. He set up a trust for the children many years ago. Even the Beatles catalog and the MJ catalog is in that Trust.

The Estate Administrators are some of the best in the world. They expect that the Estate will be worth around 2-3 billion. After MJ died the Administrators struck the largest recording contract in history with Sony for MJs songs which he has 100s that have yet to be released. They recently petitioned the court so they would be able to put another 80 million into the Trust for the children.

Also I just read an article where they also have found a 186 piece fine art collection belonging to MJ and the certified appraisers said their value could reach almost a billion dollars. This is over and beyond the other fine art he collected when at NL.

20% goes to the charities he chose in his Will and that is to be paid first right off the top before any monies are paid for adm cost or put in the Trust at a later date etc.

So he sure had his act together when it came to protecting his children's financial future. His mother is allowed to draw from the estate as long as she lives but all assets belong to his children. The estate gives her $86,000 a month for living expenses and that includes expenses for raising his children.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Ok first........Good morning everyone!

Now as usual I was thinking about something else Murray said in his faux statement so I have a question.

He flat out said MJ told him all the other meds DID NOT WORK and only the propofol did....SOO why would Michael get up and take the larazapam ( probably murderlized the spelling lol) anyway???????

Especially if he was going to inject himself with PROPOFOL which he knew worked???????????

Could it be that Murray has lied once again????

Me thinks so. What do y'all think?

 

[peace9274]

I too believe CM is lying!

I do not believe MJ took any meds on his own.
I do not believe that MJ had begged as hard as CM said he did.

If that were the case, why did he call CM in the first place?
MJ knew CM would give him the IV propofol.

I think MJ received the meds a lot earlier than any of the previous stated times...
ie when CM first got to MJ's house. CM was used to getting to MJ's house much earlier, but this night, MJ worked later.

I think CM started the IV with the propofol and then went to talk on his phone and/or he fell asleep himself.
When he awoke, he saw that MJ had been dead for several hours, by his color, eyes fixed/dilated pupils, rigor, temp of skin, etc.

CM's taped interview just seems like a bunch of lies and I hate his fake tone of voice...
and how he says he cared so much for MJ. Why even say that, unless he was afraid that
the LE was suspicious. I can just see the LE looking at each other & rolling their eyes (when CM wasn't looking, of course).

CM is exaggerating his demeanor and making up his story as he goes along. I have worked with a lot of patients that were sociopathic/psychopathic.
The lies and the soft spoken voice and the "love" of everybody/thing, the sense of entitlement... is sickening.

I also don't believe CM rubbed lotion on MJ nor emptied his urinal. I think CM thinks he was above all that.
A nurse would have done both & at least picked up towels, straightened the bathroom, hung or folded MJ's clothes, thrown away garbage, etc.

IMO, CM is a !!!

 

[Talina]

Ok first........Good morning everyone!

Now as usual I was thinking about something else Murray said in his faux statement so I have a question.

He flat out said MJ told him all the other meds DID NOT WORK and only the propofol did....SOO why would Michael get up and take the larazapam ( probably murderlized the spelling lol) anyway???????

Especially if he was going to inject himself with PROPOFOL which he knew worked???????????

Could it be that Murray has lied once again????

Me thinks so. What do y'all think?

Very good catch and good question. Oh, the lies we weave.

 

[borndem]

Good Morning, Sleuthers! The rubber is starting to hit the road with the People's case now, SportsFans.... Should be a day to pay attention...

Oceanblueeyes - Yeah, faux statement from CM is indeed what I think.

As to the Lorazepam (Ativan and Temestra are brand names, and it is a drug for "anxiety, insomnia, an anticonvulsant & muscle relaxer") - If MJ is sneaking his own dose while the good doctor is taking a whiz, why would he take the time to find, take & chase with water, something that he believes does not help?? I can only see him going straight for the milk.
Does an alcoholic (not saying MJ is an addict necessarily, but it seems so to me), when sneaking a drink, open a Coke & drink it before he/she reaches for the liquor? Nyet, my friends.

MJ has a doctor -- all he has to do is ask for another injection. And fooey to the drinking it, so consider...

If the milk burns as it's going in the vein, will it also burn when it's going down the throat? Does MJ wanna risk something burning down his throat when he will be singing for hours over the next however many days/weeks? You can buy a new trumpet, but you can't buy a new set of vocal chords.... just a thought...

 

[21merc7]

borndem;

You are right. No singer will drink or eat anything that will harm their mouth, throat, tongue or vocal chords. Not a chance, never. (Even the bad ones that only get to sing in hotel lounges, lol!)

 

[Talina]

Good Morning, Sleuthers! The rubber is starting to hit the road with the People's case now, SportsFans.... Should be a day to pay attention...

Oceanblueeyes - Yeah, faux statement from CM is indeed what I think.

As to the Lorazepam (Ativan and Temestra are brand names, and it is a drug for "anxiety, insomnia, an anticonvulsant & muscle relaxer") - If MJ is sneaking his own dose while the good doctor is taking a whiz, why would he take the time to find, take & chase with water, something that he believes does not help?? I can only see him going straight for the milk.
Does an alcoholic (not saying MJ is an addict necessarily, but it seems so to me), when sneaking a drink, open a Coke & drink it before he/she reaches for the liquor? Nyet, my friends.

Also, if the milk burns as it's going in the vein, will it also burn when it's going down the throat? Does MJ wanna risk something burning down his throat when he will be singing for hours over the next however many days/weeks? You can buy a new trumpet, but you can't buy a new set of vocal chords.... just a thought...

I've seen anesthesiologists on the TH shows (during this trial) say the Propofol would have set his mouth literally on fire if he were to orally take it and that he likely would have vomited almost immediately.

 

[borndem]

MJ was a very savvy business man. He set up a trust for the children many years ago. Even the Beatles catalog and the MJ catalog is in that Trust.

The Estate Administrators are some of the best in the world. They expect that the Estate will be worth around 2-3 billion. After MJ died the Administrators struck the largest recording contract in history with Sony for MJs songs which he has 100s that have yet to be released. They recently petitioned the court so they would be able to put another 80 million into the Trust for the children.

Also I just read an article where they also have found a 186 piece fine art collection belonging to MJ and the certified appraisers said their value could reach almost a billion dollars. This is over and beyond the other fine art he collected when at NL.

20% goes to the charities he chose in his Will and that is to be paid first right off the top before any monies are paid for adm cost or put in the Trust at a later date etc.

So he sure had his act together when it came to protecting his children's financial future. His mother is allowed to draw from the estate as long as she lives but all assets belong to his children. The estate gives her $86,000 a month for living expenses and that includes expenses for raising his children.

Wow, thanks, and that's a relief -- I just wanted to know that their inheritance is protected from relatives who might feel that the children need help taking care of their investments. Sounds good & tight.

 

[tambo]

Michael told Dr. Murray he wanted to build a children’s hospital with a movie theatre and a game room because it would help cure depression; but the treatment MJ received from medical doctors and his long-standing career in the entertainment field was only able to offer him temporary relief from depression; not cure it, which was necessary in order to save his life.

Therefore, the children’s hospital MJ said he wanted to build with entertainment facilities in order to cure depression would only provide the patients with temporary relief as well and even though MJ stated emphatically, “God wants me to do this”, I can’t see what difference or contribution this medical facility really had to offer.

JMO

wow,, really????? my son had cancer when he was 2 years old and i can tell you for a fact, that any kind of happiness brought to a child that is suffering is always, always a very very good thing....and any parent with a sick child would be gratefull for even 5 minutes of happiness for their sick child....

sorry, i don't mean to be snotty, but that just blew me away...

 

[2goaliemom]

Good morning everyone! I just wanted to thank all of you for the summaries of the last few days in court and the excellent commentary and analysis. I went back east for my son's wedding and I'm still catching up. Absolutely unbelievable number of inconsistencies in the good doc's statement to police and the witnesses' testimony. I can barely listen to the arrogance and narcissim streaming from his mouth!

 

[Lqqkout]

I guess it is who you feel is telling the truth. I see no reason whatsoever why AA would lie about something he saw and those two items were exactly as he described when Murray told LE himself where they were on the third day after MJ died. If they had not found them then maybe some doubt.....but they were found and AA nor the public had a copy of what was retrieved in the SWs. Those were held sealed for months.

While Ms. Fleak may have made errors because after all this was just a death investigation and not a homicide investigation I do not think she is lying about one thing. And there is no way she or AA could get Murray's fingerprint on the bottle found in the slit bag.

I think what happened is she felt the propofol bottle would not show up and it would cause a glare when photographing it and it does show the saline bags that does have a glare on them. So she... meaning well... took the bottle out of the slit bag..placed it on the top of the bag she found it in and took a photo of it.

If you noticed she took individual photos of other things. Since the propofol and bag came together she photographed them that way...together.

That is not going to make or break the case. Murray has many more problems that just that. The worst thing he could have done ever was agreeing to talk to LE. Now they have him locked into his lies that do not add up to the evidence.

I have a real problem with the absence of a picture of the bag with the alleged propofol bottle inside it, and with NO testing of this setup. Now this detective is another witness who did not take notes of the bottle of propofol inside the saline bag. To me this is huge. It doesn't matter who I believe or not, there is NO evidence other than eyewitness testimony, no picture of the bottle of propofol was in the saline bag. I think the lack of notes or pictures of this setup is suspicious and could just be the smoking gun to acquit Dr. Murray. I do not understand this at all. This alleged bottle in the saline bag is the most important thing in this case and the proof is severely lacking in the prosecution. I think this WILL make or break this case. jmho and I love Michael Jackson, but it almost appears to me this evidence was manufactured by LE.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I have a real problem with the absence of a picture of the bag with the alleged propofol bottle inside it, and with NO testing of this setup. Now this detective is another witness who did not take notes of the bottle of propofol inside the saline bag. To me this is huge. It doesn't matter who I believe or not, there is NO evidence other than eyewitness testimony, no picture of the bottle of propofol was in the saline bag. I think the lack of notes or pictures of this setup is suspicious and could just be the smoking gun to acquit Dr. Murray. I do not understand this at all. This alleged bottle in the saline bag is the most important thing in this case and the proof is severely lacking in the prosecution. I think this WILL make or break this case. jmho and I love Michael Jackson, but it almost appears to me this evidence was manufactured by LE.

That is because the detective did not see the bottle in the bag. Fleak had already removed it and put it on top of the saline bag. At the time he was only assisting the Coroner's office with a death investigation.......not a homicide investigation. It didn't become a homicide investigation until 8-09

I think there is a lot of evidence to substantiate it. No one slits a bag without intending to put something inside of it. Fleak saw it. Alvarez saw it and both items were found in the bags where Murray hid them away. The bottle in question has the finger print of Conrad Murray on it and no one else's.

Murray has a lot more to worry about than them trying to say the bottle wasnt in the bag.

IMO