Conrad Murray Trial - Day Ten

[Isabelle]

I sure hope we see the prosecution's anesthesiologist witness next.

Gawwww..coroner just IV was by left knee. Other medical testimony has said right knee. What the heck knee was it?

I thought I heard it once said it was by an ankle??

edited to add: noted in autopsy report that there were punctures of left calf and right ankle.

 

[Isabelle]

Guarantee Dr Murray removed the tubing from the Propofol bottle and IV before Alvarez got to the room. Probably discarded it with other stuff somewhere at the hospital as was previously stated.

 

[LyndyLoo]

I thought I heard it once said it was by an ankle??

Yes Dr. Rogers stated the site was behind the left knee..and just wish to point out...the IV stand was on the RIGHT side of the bed..as was CM and his comfy chair and drugs...So given scenerio of DT..MJ would have to have the manual dexterity to locate propol, find the port about 6 cm from IV site..insert syringe..plunger it, remove it..return syrige to bedside table..and resume position on his back..and ohhh yeah..get 8 pills out of container, swallow without any water handy..too..Yikes!!

Somethings is amiss by Conrad's recollections??..:waitasec:

 

[Talina]

Yes Dr. Rogers stated the site was behind the left knee..and just wish to point out...the IV stand was on the RIGHT side of the bed..as was CM and his comfy chair and drugs...So given scenerio of DT..MJ would have to have the manual dexterity to locate propol, find the port about 6 cm from IV site..insert syringe..plunger it, remove it..return syrige to bedside table..and resume position on his back..and ohhh yeah..get 8 pills out of container, swallow without any water handy..too..Yikes!!

Somethings is amiss by Conrad's recollections??..:waitasec:

And on top of that, all of those items are missing any finger prints of MJ.

I can see limited or very few finger prints of Dr. M. He had gloves at his disposal. I guess we can assume in that hypothetical that MJ also put gloves on and removed them before going unconscious.

 

[Thundar]

I watched most of the testimony today, at least what I could and still carry on my normal routine. So, what if anything new did I learn today? I got to see another autopsy picture presented by the prosecutor. I got to hear again mode and cause of death, which has not changed. I got to hear a lot of hypotheticals presented by defense.

The explanation of the spike mark in the propofol bottle I think was new info in testimony. Other than those things I heard a lot of blahblahblah from the defense.

Thank you to everyone who explained things today.

What did you learn from the trial today?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Well one thing I have learned from Murray's "made for LE' interview is he certainly is a self serving individual. He builds himself up and throws everyone else under the bus.

He lies and says he is the one that ordered the autopsy. He was not even in charge of MJs body once the ER head doctor took control. MJ became her patient.......not Doc Murray.

He said he is the one who advised that a social worker be called for the children when the ER head doctor said that is standard protocol when they have a code and the social worker was already there with the family.

To hear him tell it he was calling the shots and everyone else were following his orders. Horsepoopy.

He would have the jury believe he is totally blameless and did everything correctly yet he ignorantly calls propofol a sedative and while also saying it can be used for anesthesia. There is nothing on the pamphlet inside the propofol box that states propofol is to be used as a sedative or sleep aide.

He also wants the jury to believe that MJ laid awake for many hours sleeping only 15 minutes out of that long time line. Is this logical? Is it reasonable to believe such claims? Especially when the DT has painted MJ as this raging insomniac who needed propofol to sleep? Even Murray states MJ told him NOTHING ELSE worked. So why would he take lorazeapam then?

Who continues chest compressions on a patient that supposedly already has a rapid heart rate? One that has no clue what they are doing OR they are making the entire thing up.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I watched most of the testimony today, at least what I could and still carry on my normal routine. So, what if anything new did I learn today? I got to see another autopsy picture presented by the prosecutor. I got to hear again mode and cause of death, which has not changed. I got to hear a lot of hypotheticals presented by defense.

The explanation of the spike mark in the propofol bottle I think was new info in testimony. Other than those things I heard a lot of blahblahblah from the defense.

Thank you to everyone who explained things today.

What did you learn from the trial today?

I was not offended by the autopsy photo of Michael at all. I think the state presented it with the most dignity they could to the jury.

It showed me that MJ was not emaciated. He was lean but then he has always been extremely lean. Imo, it showed a healthy man who looked much younger than he really was. If I didn't know he was dead it looked like he was just a man that could have been there sleeping in a hospital room.

It did make me feel sad that this healthy man died and it didn't have to happen. If only Murray could have been as attentive to his one patient as he was in talking and texting with his ladies this would have turned out much differently and so many lives wouldnt have been shattered.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Flanagan asking coroner a lot of questions about Dr.Shaffer's report. Why not save those questions for the author of the report or at least another anesthesiologist?

This has bugged me from the start when it comes to Flanagan. He goes on and on with the same subject and it isn't even the expert he should be asking and believe me he knows that. He just wants to get that out there to the jury ad nauseaum no matter which witness he has to use to do it.

I think that is why Walgren finally called for a side bar.

IMO

 

[borndem]

I like the coroner, and worked with a Dr. like him - personality like a wet cardboard box.

:floorlaugh: Whew, Isabelle, I needed a laff!!!:lol: I've never heard quite that particular description, but it definitely paints a picture! :laugh: Still smiling.

And we've all known someone like that. :clap: Thanks for breaking up the slog through all this medical mystery tour.

 

[borndem]

Maybe the judge will throw flanagan out! Looks like he is getting ticked.

Hooo-boy is he! He had a scrunched-up look when he had to ask the sizzling live-wire coroner to speak up (again), but I didn't think that that little l man was pizzing him off, but I could tell it was something. I think Hizzoner's bile at flanagan has been building, & he may be on his last nerve with him.

Obfuscate, go in a zig-zag line, and baffle 'em with bullsheet.... gets old, doesn't it?

 

[borndem]

Was the concentration of lorazepam in the gastric fluid in micrograms??

The only gastric stats were lidocaine at 1.6mg & propofol at 0.13mg. Nothing else was measured.

 

[borndem]

Where can I find the tox report?

It's very near the end of the attached AR.

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Celebs/jackson, michael_report.pdf

 

[Talina]

The only gastric stats were lidocaine at 1.6mg & propofol at 0.13mg. Nothing else was measured.

I'm pretty sure that the gastric contents toxicology report did show lorazipam. That was a different toxicology report than the one done and attached to the autopsy report. The gastric contents toxicology report was done in Aug 2011 by an outside toxicologist hired by the def team.

ETA: http://www.antiguaobserver.com/?p=65588

and:

http://lawmedconsultant.com/2575/toxicology-in-the-michael-jackson-manslaughter-trial excerpt: The coroner’s office did not test the gastric contents for an actual level of lorazepam, since the blood results which showed a low amount of lorazepam, any amount in the stomach would be irrelevant to the cause of death. The defense claims that the amount of lorazepam in the stomach was 4x the amount found in the blood according to subsequent testing they had done. This would not have affected Jackson however, since it is the amount in the bloodstream which affects the patient

 

[Crosby87]

http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/1007_conrad_murray_transcript.pdf

This is the transcript

Thank you Talina,

I learned Michael Jackson had a subluxation of his right hip and Dr. Murray is 6’4” - 6’5” tall and weighs approximately 220 lbs.

Page 12, Dr. Murray: “But during a cursory physical examination, I did not find any major physical change except for a subluxation of his right hip. When asked to explain what a subluxation is, Dr. Murray replied, “It’s like if you have a joint that goes out of place, and comes back in at a certain angle. So whenever he bent to 90 degrees or greater, his hip would slip out of joint - sits back up, slides back in”.

Page 44: re: Propofol - Dr. Murray: He never told me that he administered it himself, but he had said to me that the doctors allowed him to infuse it himself. And I refused him that opportunity. And he asked me, “Why would you -- Why don’t you want me to push it? I love to push it. You know, it makes me feel medicine is great.” I said, “Well, if I’m going to give you an agent that is going to put you to sleep immediately and be so quick to act, I don’t want you ever to infuse such a substance when I am present. I’ll do that. So sorry about the other doctors who have done this. I would not.”

I got a chuckle when I read this, When Dr. Murray said MJ asked for milk so he could sleep, Detective Smith said, “Hot milk or warm, or just”.

 

[borndem]

I feel like my head has a cloud in front of my eyes from this defense cross. I imagine the jury would feel the same way.

That's what this defense team is trying to do: They are trying to O.D. the jury on all this confusing, complicated, hard-to-understand, too-much-math, too many milligrams (what's a dayam milligram, anyway?) and micrograms and nanograms, diazepam, lorazepam, medazipam, and I-don't-give-a-dayam, and diprivan, ativan and minivan (or whatever it is), and propofol, folderol, and flomax, and lorax, remax, and versed, and spikes, and oximeters, speedometers, and thermometers, and I'm so confused, I'm just gonna ignore this part.

======> That's what they're after -- just hoping the jury will just feel so unqualified and uneducated about all this pharmacology and toxicology and blabology that they will just skip that part in their deliberations. MJ's doctor sounded so nice, he must be okay. Not guilty. :maddening:

 

[katydid23]

I noted one thing the defense tried to sway the jury with today. They acted all butt hurt that LE did not watch surveillance videos AFTER the death, because they implied that anyone could have come in and tampered with the doctor's medical bags. They tried to implicate the Jackson family in doing so, by pointing out that they found the pot in another suitcase in a closet. Thus by inference, they must have found this closet and looked inside of and messed with these medical bags too. I hope the jury does not accept that.

 

[borndem]

Guarantee Dr Murray removed the tubing from the Propofol bottle and IV before Alvarez got to the room. Probably discarded it with other stuff somewhere at the hospital as was previously stated.

Yes, indeed -- My thoughts exactly -- I think it's the first thing he did, probably after one look at little MJ.

Only after that little clean-up did he start his version of CPR on the bed. He knew MJ had been dead for probably an hour -- I'll grant him that much knowledge about medicine.

 

[borndem]

IIRC, on the 25th, after things kind of calmed down at the hospital, it was said that the security unit at MJ's house was replaced. (Maybe I just imagined it -- if no one else recalls, just ignore this dribble, please.)

If that is so, who gave directions for the security to be replaced and what new unit was put on security? Who would have had that authority unless it was the Coroner or the LEO's? :waitasec:

Odd, seems to me.

TIA if someone knows.

 

[21merc7]

That's what this defense team is trying to do: They are trying to O.D. the jury on all this confusing, complicated, hard-to-understand, too-much-math, too many milligrams (what's a dayam milligram, anyway?) and micrograms and nanograms, diazepam, lorazepam, medazipam, and I-don't-give-a-dayam, and diprivan, ativan and minivan (or whatever it is), and propofol, folderol, and flomax, and lorax, remax, and versed, and spikes, and oximeters, speedometers, and thermometers, and I'm so confused, I'm just gonna ignore this part.

======> That's what they're after -- just hoping the jury will just feel so unqualified and uneducated about all this pharmacology and toxicology and blabology that they will just skip that part in their deliberations. MJ's doctor sounded so nice, he must be okay. Not guilty. :maddening:

I know you did not intend for this to be funny, but I got a chuckle out of it. Especially minivan and lorax. :crazy:

You are correct, the defense is trying to confuse, to create that "reasonable doubt." It will be difficult regardless of how medically educated or not the jurors are because of the one big thing. Propofol.

I think most all of us, besides the medical professionals here, had no idea about propofol before MJ's death. At least I didn't. I then understood it is an anesthetic, something to be used for surgery only ===== what even the medically uneducated juror's understand.

So, defense would like it if they find Murray not guilty of manslaughter, but, it would be nice if they let him continue to practice medicine too. Confuse them with who gave it and why, maybe they will be so boggled that the manslaughter gets tossed out of their minds. Tell them MJ did it to himself, maybe they will just say "Aw heck with it, it is MJ's fault, let Murray continue to practice."

BUT, how can the jurors overlook the obvious. MJ could not give himself the propofol. MJ hired Murray to give it to him and to watch him while under propofol as he knew it could have "some" consequences. (This is why they explain this stuff to you and you sign forms about it in the hospital.) How can the jurors overlook the lorazapam (spelling?), the lack of proper monitoring equipment, the texts and phone calls, the one handed chest compressions, Murray not calling 911 and talking to the chef instead, and the list goes on.

I feel for the defense in that this is one heck of tough case to defend. I'm sure they have chosen jurors as wisely as possible, but if there is any little doubt, all the jurors have to do is request to review the evidence, the transcripts, the autopsy report(s) and then that fine line suddenly vanishes.

 

[TxLady2]

That's what this defense team is trying to do: They are trying to O.D. the jury on all this confusing, complicated, hard-to-understand, too-much-math, too many milligrams (what's a dayam milligram, anyway?) and micrograms and nanograms, diazepam, lorazepam, medazipam, and I-don't-give-a-dayam, and diprivan, ativan and minivan (or whatever it is), and propofol, folderol, and flomax, and lorax, remax, and versed, and spikes, and oximeters, speedometers, and thermometers, and I'm so confused, I'm just gonna ignore this part.

======> That's what they're after -- just hoping the jury will just feel so unqualified and uneducated about all this pharmacology and toxicology and blabology that they will just skip that part in their deliberations. MJ's doctor sounded so nice, he must be okay. Not guilty. :maddening:

OMG! Thank you for this laugh so early in the morning!!! Post of the day!

That is a defense lawyer's mantra: If you can't persuade them with facts, then confuse them with bullsheet.
Flanagan gets on my nerves. Not too crazy about the other defense guy but Flanagan has that scowl on his face all the time, and he confuses himself, I think.
I don't believe for one second that MJ injected himself with propofol. I've had it several times, the second it hits the blood stream you're out. Gone. The syringe would still have been in his hand, and he would have been slumped, not laying out straight with his palms up. Nope, never happened.
Propofol is not a sleeping medication. It is an anesthetic. It knocks you out, but that is not sleep, that's a semi-coma. I never feel rested once I wake up, I just feel dopey.