Lisa Irwin Disappearance - Thoughts and Theories ONLY!

[wfgodot]

Hello and welcome to WS, lag28wa!

 

[belimom]

Welcome, lag28wa!!!! Great first post...

:Welcome1:

 

[Dr.Fessel]

OK, I've been thinking a/b this for few days now. It goes back to when Haleigh Cummings went missing. I was watching Nancy Grace and my son (he knows I follow these cases, an had watched some of NG on the Anthony case) came in and said said, "what another missing kid ? Are these pple just getting rid of their kids to get on TV ?" Now I've been following Aliayah's case and Lisa's case, and he asked me almost the same question, except he added on, "what are these parents doing, getting rid of their kids for attention, a trip to New York to be on TV and start a "foundation" like the Anthony's did ? The 1st time he said it, I paid no attention, now I'm thinking it's very possible, (not saying its true) but a red flag for me in this case was Debra's "deal" with national media and how this case has played out so far. Could or would someone be willing to risk it all, lose their baby, and a possible life sentence for what they think is fame an fortune ? Just a thought.

I agree, WTH is going on.

 

[Paige SC]

OK, I've been thinking a/b this for few days now. It goes back to when Haleigh Cummings went missing. I was watching Nancy Grace and my son (he knows I follow these cases, an had watched some of NG on the Anthony case) came in and said said, "what another missing kid ? Are these pple just getting rid of their kids to get on TV ?" Now I've been following Aliayah's case and Lisa's case, and he asked me almost the same question, except he added on, "what are these parents doing, getting rid of their kids for attention, a trip to New York to be on TV and start a "foundation" like the Anthony's did ? The 1st time he said it, I paid no attention, now I'm thinking it's very possible, (not saying its true) but a red flag for me in this case was Debra's "deal" with national media and how this case has played out so far. Could or would someone be willing to risk it all, lose their baby, and a possible life sentence for what they think is fame an fortune ? Just a thought.

Munchausen's by Reality TV? Balloon Boy hoax gone awry?

 

[MissJames]

Earlier I was driving into town listening to HLN on XM radio. JVM was saying that Mom's anguish seemed sincere to her and she could usually tell when parents were phony.

That reminded me of Nancy Grace supporting Billie Dunn when Hailey was first reported missing. And if I recall correctly ,didn't Billie also say she failed a polygraph?

 

[katydid23]

Long time reader, first time poster here! Figured this is as good a place as any to jump in.

I'm really on the fence as to this case. Everything is so strange!

I agree that statistically and with the circumstances that we are aware of, a stranger abduction seems unlikely. It would seem that it would have to be someone who is somewhat familiar with the family and the home in the very least.

DB does seem very genuine with her emotions, but I could also see them being attributed to guilt in addition to grief. It of course makes no sense to try and cover up and accidental death, but I don't think people are thinking clearly in the heat of the moment and perhaps there is some reason that she believed if she told the truth no one would believe her anyways and she'd get away with this whole kidnapping ruse.

I can't decide what JI's role is in all of this, I agree that his demeanor is very strange, but I can't tell if it's just the way he is, or if it is due to some sort of emotional distance from DB or if he had an active part in some possible cover up.

It does seem brazen that an intruder would leave all the lights on and the doors open and unlocked and things like that but I maintain that a good portion of people who commit crimes aren't firing on all cylinders and logical, critical thinking might not be their strong suit. Casey Anthony, for one, seemed to even have sociopathic tendencies to me...

And here's just some random bits of my brain matter to throw onto the heap of ideas:

While there are no formulations of cold medicine on the shelves for children under the age of 4, there are still people who give it, just not as the label directs. Lots of people go with the "my mother did it and my mother's mother did it and we all turned out fine" mentality. I'm a parent myself and parents are weird about their certain things.

Also wanted to add that I just read that all over the counter infant acetaminophen (Tylenol) is changing the concentration that it's sold in. Currently you can buy infant acetaminophen which is very concentrated so that the dosage is very small, because it's always been thought that it would be easier give a very small amount to a baby. The children's formulation is much more diluted, so the amount given to a child is larger. Think dropper (baby) vs syringe or cup (child). Manufacturers are moving to selling only the weaker concentration (children's) with different dosage information for infants. The reasoning behind this is because people have gotten the two concentrations mixed up and accidentally overdosed their children. If DB had more than one formulation in the house and used the syringe for the children's Tylenol, but in the bottle of infants Tylenol she'd be giving almost 5 times the recommended dose. It probably doesn't amount to much, but it's something to think about. Of course we'll never know if DB gave Lisa any medication at all unless Lisa (or her remains ) are found or DB tells us.

I think I saw someone touch on this in one of the general discussion threads before the new forum was made, but just the other night National Geographic had a special on about memory. It was super fascinating, they used the classic scenario of a crime (like a robbery) occurring in public and then seeing what details some bystanders could immediately recall. Then they also did memory exercises hours and even days later. One of the things that researchers and neurologists have found out is that every time we recall a memory, the biochemistry of it in our brain actually changes, basically stating that you will no remember a memory absolutely 100% the same way each time you recall it. The differences may be non-essential or minute, but there are always differences. Then they also said that as time passes and memory fades, memories and their physical make-up in the brain is more susceptible to alteration. Alterations being things like one memory kind of getting glommed onto another memory, some outside influence or "suggestion" changing the memory. In the show they used the example of the bystanders to the crime, a few days after it occurred discussing what they saw as if they were witnesses getting ready to testify. As they were trying to sort out the details a "fake" planted witness used the word "red" in reference to something during the crime and several people then began to swear up and down that one of the people involved had a red coat. They were willing to testify under oath to it, when it was in fact an incorrect memory. A former detective with the NYPD was saying much of this is known in the LE community but eyewitness testimony is still considered the number one most reliable evidence to a jury. Anyways, I only bring that up in reference to all the changes in DB and JI's stories, was the door locked, was it not locked? Who's room with JI go to first, etc. Each time they are trying to recall the details it makes the memory vulnerable to alteration, which is obviously happening here.

I also get the feeling that neither DB or JI is telling the whole truth. Even if they are seemingly inconsequential details, I agree with a previous poster that said if you were nekked and howling at the moon you better tell them about it! Just to give yourself credibility.

Lastly I have to add that every night in the midst of reading these threads I have gone through my house locking my doors and windows, something I wasn't very good at doing before. And I spent an hour on the phone with ADT the other day, getting a system installed! Hubby is set to deploy in the near future and it will be just me and my 17 month old son on our own here for a while, it's time to get monitored!

What a GREAT first post here. :fireworks::welcome:

 

[gitana1]

This bothers me : " ~one of the cell phones did not work.. all three were on the counter and she was in the midst of reprogramming them/putting numbers into them" but I can't put my finger on why, exactly..

I have that feeling this is either a Munchhausen's mother and/or there was issue with baby Lisa's paternity.. and I have NO factual basis for my clairvoyance (aka "playing the meer percentages game")

Are we sure JI is the father of that child? Bc if there was any question about it, that might explain his seemingly distant posturing. I've yet to see that man hold his head up for longer than 15 seconds...

Bothers me too. Who takes all their cell phones ( and why so many for a stay at home mom)) lines them up and reprograms them? Reminds me of casey anthony and all her phones that she lost or whatever.

The main difference I see is the age of the victim in this case opposed to the victims mentioned above.

True, but I actually think it would be easier to steal a little baby from a home as opposed to a kid. They could just clamp their hand over their little mouths and carry them out.

Nevertheless, the problem in this case is that the mom apparently failed a polygraph "miserably" according to LE and LE really seems to be focused on the home and the family. That's enough for me to be suspicious right now and to not go with the abduction scenario.

Also, while the mom has cried a lot in interviews, she also seemed very cool to me in others and shifty eyed. her phrasing was odd too when talking about all those tragic things you hear on the news about people harming their kids. Something was off in the phrasing to me. Could be exhaustion, I guess. I don't know. Seemed weird to me.

 

[lag28wa]

I keep thinking about how close to the airport (MCI) they live....the fact that you do not need ID for a child when traveling with a child....Baby Lisa could have been anywhere by the time they called 911....wonder if LE or FBI have reviewed cameras/footage at the airport....and now I am wondering WHY ID is not needed....this should be a duh point for security...jmo

Yes! Absolutely! I have traveled several times with my son, both as an infant and a very young toddler and have never even experienced a batted eye-lash. Even when I traveled with him WITHOUT my husband. I would think that parent abductions are somewhat common so you'd think they'd be more cautious about the parents not traveling together.

I guess it's a little better that we have always bought a seat for my son, so he has his own ticket and his name matches my/our name(s) so maybe they feel better about that. But with baby Lisa, she doesn't need ID or a ticket or anything of any kind, she might as well be a stuffed teddy bear, she's treated about the same! I know they ask at the gate how many lap children are traveling, I assume so that in the case of an emergency they know how many passengers they need to locate, but I don't think they ask for a name or anything, just a head count. I could be wrong on that last part though.

 

[Jaxson]

ow,ow,ow,ow! finger refreshing cramp

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I agree, WTH is going on.

I heard (or read) something today about a "trust fund" being set up for a reward. I apologize for sounding skeptical, but why do people think of money-making strategies when a child's life is endangered? :maddening:

 

[neesaki]

Long time reader, first time poster here! Figured this is as good a place as any to jump in.

I'm really on the fence as to this case. Everything is so strange!

I agree that statistically and with the circumstances that we are aware of, a stranger abduction seems unlikely. It would seem that it would have to be someone who is somewhat familiar with the family and the home in the very least.

DB does seem very genuine with her emotions, but I could also see them being attributed to guilt in addition to grief. It of course makes no sense to try and cover up and accidental death, but I don't think people are thinking clearly in the heat of the moment and perhaps there is some reason that she believed if she told the truth no one would believe her anyways and she'd get away with this whole kidnapping ruse.

I can't decide what JI's role is in all of this, I agree that his demeanor is very strange, but I can't tell if it's just the way he is, or if it is due to some sort of emotional distance from DB or if he had an active part in some possible cover up.

It does seem brazen that an intruder would leave all the lights on and the doors open and unlocked and things like that but I maintain that a good portion of people who commit crimes aren't firing on all cylinders and logical, critical thinking might not be their strong suit. Casey Anthony, for one, seemed to even have sociopathic tendencies to me...

And here's just some random bits of my brain matter to throw onto the heap of ideas:

While there are no formulations of cold medicine on the shelves for children under the age of 4, there are still people who give it, just not as the label directs. Lots of people go with the "my mother did it and my mother's mother did it and we all turned out fine" mentality. I'm a parent myself and parents are weird about their certain things.

Also wanted to add that I just read that all over the counter infant acetaminophen (Tylenol) is changing the concentration that it's sold in. Currently you can buy infant acetaminophen which is very concentrated so that the dosage is very small, because it's always been thought that it would be easier give a very small amount to a baby. The children's formulation is much more diluted, so the amount given to a child is larger. Think dropper (baby) vs syringe or cup (child). Manufacturers are moving to selling only the weaker concentration (children's) with different dosage information for infants. The reasoning behind this is because people have gotten the two concentrations mixed up and accidentally overdosed their children. If DB had more than one formulation in the house and used the syringe for the children's Tylenol, but in the bottle of infants Tylenol she'd be giving almost 5 times the recommended dose. It probably doesn't amount to much, but it's something to think about. Of course we'll never know if DB gave Lisa any medication at all unless Lisa (or her remains ) are found or DB tells us.

I think I saw someone touch on this in one of the general discussion threads before the new forum was made, but just the other night National Geographic had a special on about memory. It was super fascinating, they used the classic scenario of a crime (like a robbery) occurring in public and then seeing what details some bystanders could immediately recall. Then they also did memory exercises hours and even days later. One of the things that researchers and neurologists have found out is that every time we recall a memory, the biochemistry of it in our brain actually changes, basically stating that you will no remember a memory absolutely 100% the same way each time you recall it. The differences may be non-essential or minute, but there are always differences. Then they also said that as time passes and memory fades, memories and their physical make-up in the brain is more susceptible to alteration. Alterations being things like one memory kind of getting glommed onto another memory, some outside influence or "suggestion" changing the memory. In the show they used the example of the bystanders to the crime, a few days after it occurred discussing what they saw as if they were witnesses getting ready to testify. As they were trying to sort out the details a "fake" planted witness used the word "red" in reference to something during the crime and several people then began to swear up and down that one of the people involved had a red coat. They were willing to testify under oath to it, when it was in fact an incorrect memory. A former detective with the NYPD was saying much of this is known in the LE community but eyewitness testimony is still considered the number one most reliable evidence to a jury. Anyways, I only bring that up in reference to all the changes in DB and JI's stories, was the door locked, was it not locked? Who's room with JI go to first, etc. Each time they are trying to recall the details it makes the memory vulnerable to alteration, which is obviously happening here.

I also get the feeling that neither DB or JI is telling the whole truth. Even if they are seemingly inconsequential details, I agree with a previous poster that said if you were nekked and howling at the moon you better tell them about it! Just to give yourself credibility.

Lastly I have to add that every night in the midst of reading these threads I have gone through my house locking my doors and windows, something I wasn't very good at doing before. And I spent an hour on the phone with ADT the other day, getting a system installed! Hubby is set to deploy in the near future and it will be just me and my 17 month old son on our own here for a while, it's time to get monitored!

I agree that maybe some type of unforeseen accident may have caused baby Lisa's death. I just can't go along with the accidental overdose of an over the counter cold medication, you're talking about a really large dose to cause a baby to actually stop breathing and die. Unless we're talking something purposeful, rather than accidental. UNLESS, there was the off chance she may have been allergic to something in the medication and went into anaphylactic shock. IMO that is not what happened or they would definitely called 911 and gotten help to save their daughter. No guilt there, therefore, it has to be something more.

The fact is, the parents could have no way of knowing when they walked in the baby's room and discovered her not breathing that her death was caused by them giving her too much of the wrong medication. With one exception, and that is if it was done intentionally . Otherwise, they couldn't be more worried about their own guilt than they were about their own daughters life, to the point they would not immediately call 911. Think about it, they would simply have walked into the room and witnessed the baby not breathing, maybe a small amount of vomiting, other than that, what? Why or how could they think they caused their baby's death, unless they did it with intention?

SID's (sudden infant death syndrome) happens every day. Not to mention it could have been any number of other things, choking on a bottle? By the way, you're not supposed to put a baby to bed with a bottle because of the chance of aspiration. Did she not know this, or did she have more important things on her mind? This wasn't her first experience at being a mother, so I think she knew this simple fact. Something more is going on, accident, possibly, but more than over the counter cold meds. JMO

 

[flipflop]

(OT: I agree to a certain extent - it's one of the downsides of getting a forum dedicated to one case. OTOH, it doesn't move so quickly as one long thread does, and it allows folks to concentrate on the areas that interest them and also puts the info altogether per topic - easier to find in the long run)

I hear what you are saying, but out of the 17 threads for Lisa Irwin many of them are discussing the same thing right now...

Cannot find the thread I was reading and commenting on....I find this too frustrating to follow....good night all!!!!

 

[Dee10]

Weird. Why? To create more drama? When did it become ok for journalists to create news?

BTW, is anyone else super annoyed by the reporter in this clip? http://video.foxnews.com/v/1206812569001/report-mother-of-missing-baby-failed-lie-detector-test

If it was my kid, I'd camp out at the police station, regardless if they were accusing me, until they found my baby. I wouldn't "lawyer up" and I'm a lawyer myself. I wouldn't do that until I was charged, if I was innocent, that is.

AH HA...Finally we have an actual lawyer saying that! :tyou: Can I ask you to expand on why IYO???

 

[MissJames]

Long time reader, first time poster here! Figured this is as good a place as any to jump in.

I'm really on the fence as to this case. Everything is so strange!

I agree that statistically and with the circumstances that we are aware of, a stranger abduction seems unlikely. It would seem that it would have to be someone who is somewhat familiar with the family and the home in the very least.

DB does seem very genuine with her emotions, but I could also see them being attributed to guilt in addition to grief. It of course makes no sense to try and cover up and accidental death, but I don't think people are thinking clearly in the heat of the moment and perhaps there is some reason that she believed if she told the truth no one would believe her anyways and she'd get away with this whole kidnapping ruse.

I can't decide what JI's role is in all of this, I agree that his demeanor is very strange, but I can't tell if it's just the way he is, or if it is due to some sort of emotional distance from DB or if he had an active part in some possible cover up.

It does seem brazen that an intruder would leave all the lights on and the doors open and unlocked and things like that but I maintain that a good portion of people who commit crimes aren't firing on all cylinders and logical, critical thinking might not be their strong suit. Casey Anthony, for one, seemed to even have sociopathic tendencies to me...

And here's just some random bits of my brain matter to throw onto the heap of ideas:

While there are no formulations of cold medicine on the shelves for children under the age of 4, there are still people who give it, just not as the label directs. Lots of people go with the "my mother did it and my mother's mother did it and we all turned out fine" mentality. I'm a parent myself and parents are weird about their certain things.

Also wanted to add that I just read that all over the counter infant acetaminophen (Tylenol) is changing the concentration that it's sold in. Currently you can buy infant acetaminophen which is very concentrated so that the dosage is very small, because it's always been thought that it would be easier give a very small amount to a baby. The children's formulation is much more diluted, so the amount given to a child is larger. Think dropper (baby) vs syringe or cup (child). Manufacturers are moving to selling only the weaker concentration (children's) with different dosage information for infants. The reasoning behind this is because people have gotten the two concentrations mixed up and accidentally overdosed their children. If DB had more than one formulation in the house and used the syringe for the children's Tylenol, but in the bottle of infants Tylenol she'd be giving almost 5 times the recommended dose. It probably doesn't amount to much, but it's something to think about. Of course we'll never know if DB gave Lisa any medication at all unless Lisa (or her remains ) are found or DB tells us.

I think I saw someone touch on this in one of the general discussion threads before the new forum was made, but just the other night National Geographic had a special on about memory. It was super fascinating, they used the classic scenario of a crime (like a robbery) occurring in public and then seeing what details some bystanders could immediately recall. Then they also did memory exercises hours and even days later. One of the things that researchers and neurologists have found out is that every time we recall a memory, the biochemistry of it in our brain actually changes, basically stating that you will no remember a memory absolutely 100% the same way each time you recall it. The differences may be non-essential or minute, but there are always differences. Then they also said that as time passes and memory fades, memories and their physical make-up in the brain is more susceptible to alteration. Alterations being things like one memory kind of getting glommed onto another memory, some outside influence or "suggestion" changing the memory. In the show they used the example of the bystanders to the crime, a few days after it occurred discussing what they saw as if they were witnesses getting ready to testify. As they were trying to sort out the details a "fake" planted witness used the word "red" in reference to something during the crime and several people then began to swear up and down that one of the people involved had a red coat. They were willing to testify under oath to it, when it was in fact an incorrect memory. A former detective with the NYPD was saying much of this is known in the LE community but eyewitness testimony is still considered the number one most reliable evidence to a jury. Anyways, I only bring that up in reference to all the changes in DB and JI's stories, was the door locked, was it not locked? Who's room with JI go to first, etc. Each time they are trying to recall the details it makes the memory vulnerable to alteration, which is obviously happening here.

I also get the feeling that neither DB or JI is telling the whole truth. Even if they are seemingly inconsequential details, I agree with a previous poster that said if you were nekked and howling at the moon you better tell them about it! Just to give yourself credibility.

Lastly I have to add that every night in the midst of reading these threads I have gone through my house locking my doors and windows, something I wasn't very good at doing before. And I spent an hour on the phone with ADT the other day, getting a system installed! Hubby is set to deploy in the near future and it will be just me and my 17 month old son on our own here for a while, it's time to get monitored!

Excellent first post! Welcome!

Tylenol or acetaminophen damages the liver .The baby would get really sick before death,but it's not like a sedative or anything where they stop breathing .
There are other drugs that can make kids sleepy like Benedryl .I believe they suppress the respiratory system.
I recall a daycare provider who was convicted after a baby died in her daycare. There were records of her buying it in large amounts . She gave it to all the kids to get them to sleep.

 

[Dee10]

I hear what you are saying, but out of the 17 threads for Lisa Irwin many of them are discussing the same thing right now...

Cannot find the thread I was reading and commenting on....I find this too frustrating to follow....good night all!!!!

Goodnight Flipflop :seeya:, hopefully you find this in the morning. It will get easier, trust me. If you can't follow a case 24-7 it is a Godsend to be able to catch-up on, also if there is a topic that we do-to-death say "dogs, bedding, trash, DNA, etc." that we beat to death & you are only interested in "dogs" you can go right there. I know it is frustrating at lst, I am trying to re-adjust as I believe the Horman case was the last one I followed. Please give it a chance I loved your posts on Tori's case & a number of others.

 

[Paige SC]

It is beyond inappropriate and bizarre that the media would pay for this guy to be the spokesman.


Stanton left the police department, opened a private investigation agency and became a personal bodyguard. At the same time, Stanton became bouncer at a trendy nightclub. And after hobnobbing with celebrities, decided he wanted to be one himself.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/1742242...ching_your_back/t/who-wild-bill/#.TpUJB82LHsJ

:worms:hdear::nuts:

 

[MissJames]

I agree that maybe some type of unforeseen accident may have caused baby Lisa's death. I just can't go along with the accidental overdose of an over the counter cold medication, you're talking about a really large dose to cause a baby to actually stop breathing and die. Overdose of something stronger than that, maybe. But not an over the counter cold remedy. They are just not that strong, UNLESS, there was the off chance she may have been allergic to something in the medication. Otherwise, that, IMO, is not what happened. It has to be something more.

Not only that, how would the parents know, when they walked in the baby's room and saw her not breathing, what could have caused that. SID's (sudden infant death syndrome) happens every day. Not to mention it could have been any number of things, choking on a bottle? You're not supposed to put a baby to bed with a bottle because of the chance of aspiration. She had already had one child. She didn't know this? MO, something more is going on, accident, possibly, but more than over the counter cold meds. JMO

Mom's don't give up on their babies if there's an accident .They get help. They do everything they can to get that child breathing ,unless there is criminal activity involved ,IMO. Even then,most mom's would get help .

I've told the story in Caylee's thread how my husband worked so hard on our son until EMS came ,and he had no signs of life.Still ,my husband had hope. You just don't automatically get to "he/she's dead" Your brain won't let you.He was hopeful with me on the phone and I had no idea my son was dead. I was at the ER door when the ambulance arrived and wanted to go back with him.The dr said "first let me see if there is anything I can do for him". Still ,I knew they could save him and I would yell at my son for scaring us . But he was gone. I wanted them to keep trying . It was unfathomable the dr would stop.

When I was growing up we knew a family who's little boy was backed over in the driveway by a delivery truck and was decapitated.His mom tried to put his head back on. Mom's don't give up and they don't let go. They don't make an accident look like a kidnapping . They don't nap with kittens hours later ,unless it was intentional. JMO

It still could be a kidnapping .I'm not ruling that out ,yet.But not an accident IMO.

 

[linajoy]

I just joined WS, but have been following for years, glad to be here. I live in the KC metro and can't get poor little Lisa off my mind. I have a theory about what may have happened. Hope this is allowed. Here goes. IMO!

-DB is involved in an affair with this "handyman" or "homeless" man that had been seen around the area. (I will call him "handy" from here on)
-This is the man that she was seen with at the grocery store. DB lied about her involvement with him and that has police focusing on them both.
-DB knew JI was going to be working that evening/night for a while (at least a week)
-She planned an evening with "handy" while JI would be gone.
-She went to the store with "handy" to get alchohol for the night and had the babysitter watch the kids.
-Something happened that evening with Lisa being sick. Shaken, overdosed, suffocated...something happened and Lisa passed.
-"Handy" told DB that he would take the body and dispose.- don't like typing that!!
-"Handy" is the man that the neighbor man saw walking with a baby at midnight on his way to dispose of the body.

This is where i get stuck.... those damn phones!!!!!

-There is a reason police have been showing "handy's" photo to neighbors.
-This is why they were so quick to search the well today, "handy" may be homeless and may have known that house.
-The only thing I can't piece in is where JI is involved?? Is he clueless or is he trying to protect DB and his child?

You are all really good at this and will shoot holes in my theory, but I find myself growing really frustrated with this case and I'm grasping for ideas! Thoughts?

 

[vlpate]

thought I would add this video link in case it hasn't been posted here @ WS yet

http://www.fox4kc.com/news/wdaf-add...-lisa-irwins-parents-20111011,0,5050853.story

ETA: it says this contains additional footage from a previous interview with the parents

New to me.....thanks! JI looked a little concerned about the dumpster fire. How could they NOT know what's going on??

 

[linajoy]

Does there have to be a separate thread for everything? Makes it kinda hard to actually follow things.... Just my opinion.

Could not agree more!!:banghead::banghead: