Lisa Irwin Disappearance - Thoughts and Theories ONLY!

[Boodles]

Racking my brain and these are the possibilities as I see them. But considering so few facts (but so much rumor which is just unreliable), it's just based on gut instincts and some media reporting.

1) Deborah did something which resulted in the baby's death. Jeremy may or may not know.
2) Jeremy did something to cause the baby's death. Deborah probably knows and is covering up.
3) They sold the baby, which is why Deborah shows, at times, moments of apparent despondency, but at other times appears composed. Motive to do this? I can't come up with a theory for that, other than they may have been approached by someone wanting this blonde haired blue eyed baby. Perhaps there is question about the baby's paternity and JI pushed the idea of getting rid of the child (altho I realize many have said they feel the baby looks like Jeremy - I personally don't see it)
4) Abduction.

I am personally leaning toward theories #2 and #3 right now. But I change my feelings every other day or so. They just are not acting like people whose baby was stolen. There are no emotional pleas for their baby's return, and their stories don't have the level of detail to be convincing IMO.

 

[HatesSociopaths]

With respect, if this had any possibility of being an abduction, why has no Amber Alert been re-issued (and why was it canceled earlier)?

Here are the criteria:

Summary of Department of Justice Recommended Criteria

There is reasonable belief by law enforcement that an abduction has occurred.
The law enforcement agency believes that the child is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death.
There is enough descriptive information about the victim and the abduction for law enforcement to issue an AMBER Alert to assist in the recovery of the child.
The abduction is of a child aged 17 years or younger.
The child’s name and other critical data elements, including the Child Abduction flag, have been entered into the National Crime Information Center (NCIC) system.

http://www.amberalert.gov/guidelines.htm

Active AMBER Alerts are kept on this web page for a period of ten days from the initial AMBER Alert. After that ten day period they will be removed from this page. However if the child still remains missing they will be in NCMEC's missing children database. Please click on the link below and search by name.

http://www.ncmec.org/missingkids/servlet/AmberServlet

How irresponsible for the FBI and KCPD would it be to not use the Amber Alert system in this case if it was an abduction? They KNOW it wasn't an abduction, IMO. And they want the perp to know they KNOW.

MOO.

 

[feistygurl]

With respect, if this had any possibility of being an abduction, why has no Amber Alert been re-issued (and why was it canceled earlier)?

Here are the criteria:



http://www.amberalert.gov/guidelines.htm




http://www.ncmec.org/missingkids/servlet/AmberServlet

How irresponsible for the FBI and KCPD would it be to not use the Amber Alert system in this case if it was an abduction? They KNOW it wasn't an abduction, IMO. And they want the perp to know they KNOW.

MOO.

I am leaning towards an abduction also. I don't understand the amber alert thing at all. Here one was never issued for baby Lunsford. saying that they didn't have a vehicle description , didnt meet the requirements for one, ect. So not sure how one was issued for Baby Lisa in the 1st place. I'm gonna have to read up on the amber alert requirements.

 

[feistygurl]

Heres what is says about it for missouri

http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?id=650515

Before an amber alert can be issued law enforcement officials have to have reasonable belief that an abduction occurred, and that law enforcement officials believe that the child is in imminent danger or seriously injured,” Hull said. “Also law enforcement officials have to have enough descriptive information about the victim and the abductor before they can issue an amber alert

http://www.mshp.dps.missouri.gov/MSHPWeb/PatrolDivisions/DDCC/AmberAlert/aboutTheAmberPlan.html

AMBER ALERT ACTIVATION CRITERIA


In order for an AMBER Alert to be forwarded for dissemination via the Alert Missouri program the following criteria must be met:


1. Law enforcement officials have a reasonable belief that an abduction has occurred, which meets the definition in RSMo. 565.110 or 565.115.


2. Law enforcement officials believe that the child is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death.


3. Enough descriptive information exists about the victim and the abductor for law enforcement to issue an AMBER Alert.


4. The victim of the abduction is a child age 17 years or younger.


5. The child's name and other critical data elements - including the child abduction (CA) flag - have been entered into the National Crime Information Center (NCIC) system


Makes me think that really one never should have been issued for this case according to the criteria. Which I don't understand I think one should be issued for every missing child. I think they can think its an abduction but without a desription of the abductor or vehicle they can't issue an amber alert.

 

[linda505]

I am beginning to believe that this may be an abduction/kidnapping by either a known or unknown person. I may be just doing some wishful thinking but here are my reasons.

1. Lack of any real information coming from LE - if there has been some communication from kidnappers they may have demanded no media release of the circumstances - this would also explain the limited interviews/sighting of Lisa's parents.

2. I know there has been teams of LE searching - but the fact that they allowed that abandoned house to be demolished makes me think that the search there that day was more for show. I don't think it would have been hard to get the city to hold off for a bit to make sure that there weren't any clues there.

3. The threat analysis specialist - she would definetly be a big asset to the family if they had some sort of contact from someone who might have been involved.

4. A wealthy benefactor - somehow connected to the family...if this connection was known by someone who knew the family - there could have been the assumption that this person would come to the rescue - maybe done just for the reward money.

Just hopeful thinking here...because this scenario in my mind is more likely to return a safe Lisa than others that I can think of...

Quoted myself to add one more item to this thought.

5. What if the phones were taken not because there was something on them that would incrimate the family but because there was some prior threat made - not necessarly a threat to kidnap Lisa- but some kind of threat that would cause LE to look at them as a suspect?

 

[EllaMae]

Just a little brainstorming here.

1. The new kitten
2. Son found in room with her.
3. The wine

How hard was it for DB to be alone at night? Were the above 3 items a solution to being alone?

How much wine did she drink? What does her friend have to say about that who was there?

Was Debbie on medication? Was she on anti-depressants? Was she on medication that is a toxic cocktail when combined with alcohol? She has excellent health coverage being that she is still under her military husband's plan, IMO. It is possible she took advantage of this with getting a prescription for any emotional issues she had, if any.

Was the baby hard to deal with that night? Was she coughing from her illness? Did DB have to deal with this while intoxicated?

MOO.

There is no evidence that Deborah even drank any wine. We don't know anything about it one way or the other. But if I had to guess I'd say she was not drunk at all. She had enough mental clearness to grab both boys and take them outside as they waited for the police. That tells me she was thinking and acting in a protective and motherly way towards those boys. I don't think a drunk person would be able to process the fact that the boys needed to be kept in sight.

And just because someone is on medication it does not mean that the person would harm a much loved baby. I don't think Deborah was psychotic,severely depressed, or a paranoid schizophrenic. She seems to have been a well functioning adult who did a good job of caring for Baby Lisa.


IMHO...

 

[Patty G]

Just a little brainstorming here.

1. The new kitten
2. Son found in room with her.
3. The wine

How hard was it for DB to be alone at night? Were the above 3 items a solution to being alone?

How much wine did she drink? What does her friend have to say about that who was there?

Was Debbie on medication? Was she on anti-depressants? Was she on medication that is a toxic cocktail when combined with alcohol? She has excellent health coverage being that she is still under her military husband's plan, IMO. It is possible she took advantage of this with getting a prescription for any emotional issues she had, if any.

Was the baby hard to deal with that night? Was she coughing from her illness? Did DB have to deal with this while intoxicated?

MOO.

BBM
:waitasec: Your never ALONE when you have 3 children in the house.

 

[HatesSociopaths]

Here is something else I am brainstorming on:

Theorizing that Debbie accidentally did something wrong to kill the child (ie. she wasn't INTENDING to kill the child, but did somehow and felt she would get in trouble if known how), what are the ways this could have occurred that would put DB in a panic to stage an abduction?

MOO.

Some ideas on this:
1) She accidentally over-dosed the baby on cough syrup (but why not call 911? Was this clearly negligent - perhaps adult cough syrup?)
2) She was not home and the baby fell out of her crib or something else happened that killed the baby (but again, why not call 911? Did she fear it would be discovered she was out at the time? Then why hasn't it been discovered she was out if she was?)
3) She was possibly intoxicated, she couldn't get the baby to stop crying, she lost control, she shook the baby, etc. and the baby was killed. (How often has this happened per statistics? Is there an earlier case you know of?)
4) ?

MOO

 

[HatesSociopaths]

BBM
:waitasec: Your never ALONE when you have 3 children in the house.

I should have said "at home at night without her fiance" - in other words, did this cause her stress, etc.?

 

[EllaMae]

Racking my brain and these are the possibilities as I see them. But considering so few facts (but so much rumor which is just unreliable), it's just based on gut instincts and some media reporting.

1) Deborah did something which resulted in the baby's death. Jeremy may or may not know.
2) Jeremy did something to cause the baby's death. Deborah probably knows and is covering up.
3) They sold the baby, which is why Deborah shows, at times, moments of apparent despondency, but at other times appears composed. Motive to do this? I can't come up with a theory for that, other than they may have been approached by someone wanting this blonde haired blue eyed baby. Perhaps there is question about the baby's paternity and JI pushed the idea of getting rid of the child (altho I realize many have said they feel the baby looks like Jeremy - I personally don't see it)
4) Abduction.

I am personally leaning toward theories #2 and #3 right now. But I change my feelings every other day or so. They just are not acting like people whose baby was stolen. There are no emotional pleas for their baby's return, and their stories don't have the level of detail to be convincing IMO.

There were emotional pleas in the beginning.

I mean no disrespect to you at all...but where is the checklist for proper behavior for parents of a stolen child? Everyone reacts to a crisis in their own way. I have seen real anguish from Debbie, and to me Jeremy looks like he is in total shock. He seems to be close to losing it at any moment, and Debbie seems like she can't understand why this situation has happened to them. I got the sense that they were close to breaking down completely.
What you or other people perceive as inappropriate seems completely in line to me and maybe to others as well.
Debbie is not out dancing in a bar, writing hot checks, and pretending her child is with a non-existent nanny. I don't think Jeremy is out dealing drugs.

I'm not sure how much detail Deborah can give for an ordinary night at home. She has said quite a bit, but I'm sure her statement to LE is much more involved.

This couple still seems like an enigma to me. I am not entirely on their side because I do realize that some parents harm their children. But I don't get the same signals of deceit that others do from their interviews either.

It's a real puzzle to me at this point.

 

[HatesSociopaths]

There were emotional pleas in the beginning.

I mean no disrespect to you at all...but where is the checklist for proper behavior for parents of a stolen child? Everyone reacts to a crisis in their own way. I have seen real anguish from Debbie, and to me Jeremy looks like he is in total shock. He seems to be close to losing it at any moment, and Debbie seems like she can't understand why this situation has happened to them. I got the sense that they were close to breaking down completely.
What you or other people perceive as inappropriate seems completely in line to me and maybe to others as well.
Debbie is not out dancing in a bar, writing hot checks, and pretending her child is with a non-existent nanny. I don't think Jeremy is out dealing drugs.

I'm not sure how much detail Deborah can give for an ordinary night at home. She has said quite a bit, but I'm sure her statement to LE is much more involved.

This couple still seems like an enigma to me. I am not entirely on their side because I do realize that some parents harm their children. But I don't get the same signals of deceit that others do from their interviews either.

It's a real puzzle to me at this point.

Let me create a situation here and get your opinion:

If you had a baby, and then an abductor took it, would you stay in the house and not get on camera and ask for it back? Would you tell the abductor about feeding instructions, etc. to ensure your baby remained in good health?

I think Defense Attorneys and the psychologists they pay have brainwashed the public into thinking we can't use common sense in evaluating post-crime behavior. We heard this about Casey Anthony's clubbing and tattoos after the murder of her child.

Common sense is ok to use in investigating. Post-crime behavior is a key component to detective work.

MOO.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Let me create a situation here and get your opinion:

If you had a baby, and then an abductor took it, would you stay in the house and not get on camera and ask for it back? Would you tell the abductor about feeding instructions, etc. to ensure your baby remained in good health?

I think Defense Attorneys and the psychologists they pay have brainwashed the public into thinking we can't use common sense in evaluating post-crime behavior. We heard this about Casey Anthony's clubbing and tattoos after the murder of her child.

Common sense is ok to use in investigating. Post-crime behavior is a key component to detective work.

MOO.

BBM

But if this is a true abduction - what if a note was left? Would you then not want to do anything that would "upset" whoever has her?

We, John Q. Public, will never know about this note at all. The cells taken could have held clues as to who this is - possibly the family has been "threatened" before.

Is there a landline phone in the house?

Not saying I think this - just throwing thoughts I've had out there - brainstorming - that's all.

JMHO

 

[marge_rita]

There is no evidence that Deborah even drank any wine. We don't know anything about it one way or the other. But if I had to guess I'd say she was not drunk at all. She had enough mental clearness to grab both boys and take them outside as they waited for the police. That tells me she was thinking and acting in a protective and motherly way towards those boys. I don't think a drunk person would be able to process the fact that the boys needed to be kept in sight.

And just because someone is on medication it does not mean that the person would harm a much loved baby. I don't think Deborah was psychotic,severely depressed, or a paranoid schizophrenic. She seems to have been a well functioning adult who did a good job of caring for Baby Lisa.


IMHO...

That may be true in general terms but unless someone was with D that night, we have no idea if she drank no wine, a sip of wine or 5 glasses of wine.

imo

 

[HatesSociopaths]

Was the baby observed to be coughing at the party? Was there medication given to the baby there for it? What? Where is it now? Did Debbie not have cough medicine for a baby? Was adult cough syrup found in the house? Was adult cough syrup found in the dumpster fire remains?

 

[marge_rita]

There were emotional pleas in the beginning.

I mean no disrespect to you at all...but where is the checklist for proper behavior for parents of a stolen child? Everyone reacts to a crisis in their own way. I have seen real anguish from Debbie, and to me Jeremy looks like he is in total shock. He seems to be close to losing it at any moment, and Debbie seems like she can't understand why this situation has happened to them. I got the sense that they were close to breaking down completely.
What you or other people perceive as inappropriate seems completely in line to me and maybe to others as well.
Debbie is not out dancing in a bar, writing hot checks, and pretending her child is with a non-existent nanny. I don't think Jeremy is out dealing drugs.

I'm not sure how much detail Deborah can give for an ordinary night at home. She has said quite a bit, but I'm sure her statement to LE is much more involved.

This couple still seems like an enigma to me. I am not entirely on their side because I do realize that some parents harm their children. But I don't get the same signals of deceit that others do from their interviews either.

It's a real puzzle to me at this point.

Question, why the never ending defense of D?

NO ONE knows what went on in that house, that night.

imo

 

[iamnotagolem]

If they are worried about upsetting an alleged abductor, then what is with the circus they brought to town?

 

[marge_rita]

If they are worried about upsetting an alleged abductor, then what is with the circus they brought to town?

And what a circus it is!!!:crazy:

imo

 

[iamnotagolem]

Here is a theory:

What if Lisa was coughing at the party on Sunday. Maybe a relative or friend thought "I'd never take my baby out with a cough like that" and decided they could better care for this much loved Lisa.

I do not think it's beyond the realm of possibilities, how many times on this very forum have people said "my daughter in law puts her babies in pajama shorts at night, I never would have done that". It's not even that the person is a bad parent, but grandparents can be quite quick to judge the parenting style of their children & in laws, and criticize them.

 

[momtective]

My thoughts are, if Lisa is missing and her parents had absolutely nothing to do with her disappearance then someone else is missing as well. Right? Do we know of anyone else missing from the neighborhood other than "Jersey" and his girlfriend? Maybe not necessarily missing but unable to be located. These two are my most likely suspects at this point, however there are several missing persons in the State of MO., some reported missing right around the same time as Lisa, some with mental health issues...http://www.mshp.dps.mo.gov/CJ51/SearchAction?page=1&county=&personType=A

I absolutely do not believe Lisa's parents were in any way responsible for her disappearance.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Heres what is says about it for missouri

http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?id=650515

Before an amber alert can be issued law enforcement officials have to have reasonable belief that an abduction occurred, and that law enforcement officials believe that the child is in imminent danger or seriously injured,” Hull said. “Also law enforcement officials have to have enough descriptive information about the victim and the abductor before they can issue an amber alert

http://www.mshp.dps.missouri.gov/MSHPWeb/PatrolDivisions/DDCC/AmberAlert/aboutTheAmberPlan.html

AMBER ALERT ACTIVATION CRITERIA


In order for an AMBER Alert to be forwarded for dissemination via the Alert Missouri program the following criteria must be met:


1. Law enforcement officials have a reasonable belief that an abduction has occurred, which meets the definition in RSMo. 565.110 or 565.115.


2. Law enforcement officials believe that the child is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death.


3. Enough descriptive information exists about the victim and the abductor for law enforcement to issue an AMBER Alert.


4. The victim of the abduction is a child age 17 years or younger.


5. The child's name and other critical data elements - including the child abduction (CA) flag - have been entered into the National Crime Information Center (NCIC) system


Makes me think that really one never should have been issued for this case according to the criteria. Which I don't understand I think one should be issued for every missing child. I think they can think its an abduction but without a desription of the abductor or vehicle they can't issue an amber alert.

I keep wondering if they used the sighting of the guy with a baby to issue the amber alert at first then when they cleared that they had to remove the alert.