Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION**

[redfish]

Forgive me, OT....

Thank you Sarx and Oriah. We are so lucky to have you two professionals here to guide and teach us. Now, do you guys have any contacts with credible, objective FBI agents that might sign up with WS???! LOL I have soooo many questions for them!

 

[Oriah]

Forgive me, OT....

Thank you Sarx and Oriah. We are so lucky to have you two professionals here to guide and teach us. Now, do you guys have any contacts with credible, objective FBI agents that might sign up with WS???! LOL I have soooo many questions for them!

Thank you redfish, that is very sweet of you.

But what makes you think there aren't any here already?

Back on topic- has the issue of HRD 'alerts' been clarified for eveyone? I feel like it has been somewhat confused by the media; and as a result, many people who do not work or train with HRD dogs are confused.

 

[Miziree]

Would it be possible they think Lisa fell out of the window and didn't want the media to see the dogs "hit" in that area?
Could the dog have followed a trail from outside to inside the mom's room?
That comment DB made about being afraid to go out back because she was afraid what she would find really bothers me about this..IMO

 

[nursebeeme]

Okay... I have another question... I must admit that I am really confused that the SW said the dog hit near parent's bed but the carpet was not taken out...

any reason that would/could happen?

 

[carole]

Okay... I have another question... I must admit that I am really confused that the SW said the dog hit near parent's bed but the carpet was not taken out...

any reason that would/could happen?

Didnt have to be the carpet. Could have been a comforter, toy, clothing, etc.

 

[cachmo]

So what is your professional opinion on the "hit"?
Do you believe that this hit had anything to do with Lisa?(I tried to say that without being graphic I hope you get my point)

 

[Oriah]

Okay... I have another question... I must admit that I am really confused that the SW said the dog hit near parent's bed but the carpet was not taken out...

any reason that would/could happen?

The SW was for probable cause, correct? We might have to combine a Q&A attorney thread with the HRD thread.

 

[Oriah]

So what is your professional opinion on the "hit"?
Do you believe that this hit had anything to do with Lisa?(I tried to say that without being graphic I hope you get my point)

I have no opinion, actually. I just know that if a properly trained and utilized HRD dog alerted somewhere, then it is likely there is human decomp present at the location of the alert. Trying to remain impartial here and just stick to the basics of HRD alerts, because I believe there to be quite a lot of spin doctoring going on right now. HTH.

 

[Oriah]

Would it be possible they think Lisa fell out of the window and didn't want the media to see the dogs "hit" in that area?
Could the dog have followed a trail from outside to inside the mom's room?
That comment DB made about being afraid to go out back because she was afraid what she would find really bothers me about this..IMO

It is very possible that LE did not want an HRD dog alert filmed and spilled to media.

 

[Jakinly]

I really appreciate both of you sharing your knowledge. I am fascinated.

I have 2 questions about HRD and "the moment of death." I hope you don't find this too morbid, but here goes: in 2010, my hubby went into cardiac arrest in our bedroom. He had no pulse and was gray by the time EMS arrived Although I was doing chest compressions, he was not breathing. EMTs moved him to the living room and resucitated him there (eventually). His heart stopped again in the ambulance.

1. Would HRD dogs hit in the bedroom, living room, and ambulance (stretcher)?
2. Would the scent be picked up now by a HRD dog not trained for aged remains?

Epilogue: Hubby had no brain waves for 2 1/2 days. He walked out of the hospital nine days later 100% himself. MIRACLE.

 

[lag28wa]

I am getting the impression from you two professionals in the field that pretty much the only true, verifiable "expert" that could attest to how successful the dog(s) that got the hit probably were or weren't would be the dogs actual trainer and/or handler. So even if Tacopina gets some huge HRD dog guru, its going to be mostly conjecture and what-ifs on his(the expert) part as well, yes? (Does that make sense?)

I think having the media say the dog got a positive hit and then having someone the defense team supports say it could be total malarky is what's hard for a lot of John Q. Public reconcile.

All MOO, of course.

 

[Cazzie]

dasiy7, I don't want to turn this into a discussion thread- but it is getting hard to dissect at this point, lol.
Those are the items on the inventory, correct? It is entirely possible that some of those items were seized as scent articles. And it is entirely possible that if those were scent articles taken for the purpose of HRD dog(s) scent discrimination, that there were other articles seized not listed in the SW. Mvho, of course.

WARNING: sensitive questions that may be good questions or I'm "the last one to figger this out"...

Scenario 1: 1st scent article only came in contact with a particular person while that person was alive. 2nd scent article has decomp on it.

Can a properly trained HRD dog match up a particular person's live scent with that same person's decomp scent? Can they also rule out the 2nd scent article/decomp as being from a different person? These seem like separate questions (to me).

Scenario 2: 1st scent article came in contact with a particular person after they died (and also while they were alive, does this matter?). 2nd scent article also has decomp on it.

Can a properly trained HRD dog match up the 2 scent articles with decomp as being from the same person? Can they also rule out the 2nd scent article as being from a different person?

I think I finally got this worded correctly...whew!!! And I realize I may be sometimes using the term "scent article" improperly but I don't know what the other proper term would be....

 

[PolyGraph]

Not sure if this was asked, didnt have time enough to read through all the threads, but can a dog hit on the items that were burned in the dumpster? When things have been burned? Im wondering if LE even had those items tested or put in front of a scent dogs nose for detection??? I would have hoped they have done this already.\

I am talking about the dumpster that held the burnt items and the fire that happend the same night as the baby went missing.

 

[Oriah]

I really appreciate both of you sharing your knowledge. I am fascinated.

I have 2 questions about HRD and "the moment of death." I hope you don't find this too morbid, but here goes: in 2010, my hubby went into cardiac arrest in our bedroom. He had no pulse and was gray by the time EMS arrived Although I was doing chest compressions, he was not breathing. EMTs moved him to the living room and resucitated him there (eventually). His heart stopped again in the ambulance.

1. Would HRD dogs hit in the bedroom, living room, and ambulance (stretcher)?
2. Would the scent be picked up now by a HRD dog not trained for aged remains?

Epilogue: Hubby had no brain waves for 2 1/2 days. He walked out of the hospital nine days later 100% himself. MIRACLE.

I am out on call and can't answer all questions right now but will be back in a few hrs and will do my best. In the meantime- glad your hubby is a miracle, and yes there is science behind the scent here.

Ok be back later.

 

[~n/t~]

I apologize if this was asked and answered already.

At what point does a human detect the scent of death. aka human decomposition? Following the CA trial, we were told how strong the odor was in the trunk of that car.

If that's the case, there were reporters and other people inside the home after Lisa was abducted. Wouldn't they have detected the horrible smell?

 

[CN2Souls]

Oriah, Sarx,

I have a Friend who is a A world renowned "Track Layer" for LE and Their dog units can you tell me more about this, and what all they do?

He says they can take a cloth no bigger than the top of your pinky finger with decomp on it and walk it over a mile and then bury it 2 feet down and A dog can tack your whole path and then find it...

 

[Oriah]

WARNING: sensitive questions that may be good questions or I'm "the last one to figger this out"...

Scenario 1: 1st scent article only came in contact with a particular person while that person was alive. 2nd scent article has decomp on it.

Can a properly trained HRD dog match up a particular person's live scent with that same person's decomp scent? Can they also rule out the 2nd scent article/decomp as being from a different person? These seem like separate questions (to me).

Scenario 2: 1st scent article came in contact with a particular person after they died (and also while they were alive, does this matter?). 2nd scent article also has decomp on it.

Can a properly trained HRD dog match up the 2 scent articles with decomp as being from the same person? Can they also rule out the 2nd scent article as being from a different person?

I think I finally got this worded correctly...whew!!! And I realize I may be sometimes using the term "scent article" improperly but I don't know what the other proper term would be....

Some HRD dogs are trained for scenario 1, but they are few and far between right now. You're basically talking about a DNA dog here.

Scenario 2- I am a little confused about the question. Sounds like you are saying both scent articles came in contact with human remains of the individual? That's not a 'clean' scent article, lol. An HRD dog should then be alerting on the scent article!

 

[Oriah]

Oriah, Sarx,

I have a Friend who is a A world renowned "Track Layer" for LE and Their dog units can you tell me more about this, and what all they do?

He says they can take a cloth no bigger than the top of your pinky finger with decomp on it and walk it over a mile and then bury it 2 feet down and A dog can tack your whole path and then find it...

A 'track layer' is typically someone who lays a track for dogs training for tracking or trailing. If they are also training with decomp scent, then it seems they are likely cross training? HTH.

 

[Oriah]

I apologize if this was asked and answered already.

At what point does a human detect the scent of death. aka human decomposition? Following the CA trial, we were told how strong the odor was in the trunk of that car.

If that's the case, there were reporters and other people inside the home after Lisa was abducted. Wouldn't they have detected the horrible smell?[/quote]

BBM:
Oh, no. An HRD dog can detect very minute HR scent particles. Much more minute than the average human nose.

 

[Peliman]

Waves and thanks to you two for my doggy edumacation. Question for the experts because I'm working on a dog theory.

Trailing dogs! Well, we know baby Lisa didn't walk out of the house and get lost in the woods. She obviously was carried or driven somewhere. IMO

Reports are trailing dogs we're used in day 2 or 3 of her missing. Dogs were used in woods searches around the home and reportedly but nothing was found. (according to reports) A man with a carrying a baby with only a diaper on, reported x 2. I beleive one of those persons has been found and his lead was eliminated.

Question: Do you think a trailing dog would have picked up on the baby's scent if a baby was carried away from the house? If no scent was detected, is it more likely the baby was put in a vehicle and driven away?