GUILTY MO - Tyler Dasher, 1, Affton, 15 Nov 2011 - #2

[Truthwillsetufree]

A little O/T, but my oldest took a family/homemaking elective during her freshman year. One of the projects/test was taking home one of those "real" babies. It came with a car seat, 2 diapers, and a bottle. It was programmed to cry and to respond to various things at various times...and sometimes couldn't be comforted at all except by holding and rocking it. It also has a computer chip in it that would record how long the baby was left unattended, whether the baby was abused (shaken), etc.

Well, her's was accidentally programmed on the highest setting. I was determined to make her take care of the baby all night by herself. At 2:30 a.m. the baby was programmed to only respond to the rocking and cradling to stop the crying. My daughter was in her room rocking and crying with the baby. She was so frustrated and so tired.

When I took her to school the next morning, we had a talk about it. She was very tired and VERY happy to be bringing her baby back to school. She said it was one of the hardest nights of her life. It was a real eye-opener.

I'm going to have my youngest do this project as well.

In fact, I think EVERY high school student, both boys and girls, should be required to do it.

There was/is a program like that here, not sure if it is still going but the students had to keep the baby for a week and depending on the care they gave the baby determined if they would pass or fail. It was/is a good program and should be a requirement in every high school. JMO but I think that one week was the best "birth control" information that a high school student could receive.

 

[LaLaw2000]

It was stated yesterday,in the presser iirc, that it is standard procedure there to put everyone on suicide watch for the 1st while, can't remember if it is 24 hours or how long. I'm not quoting it properly I know and now I can't find a link to the typed up presser.

Actually, a real suicide watch will have her in a paper dress and she will be beside a control room with a big window where she can be seen at all times. A hall duty officer will check on her every 15 minutes and log it into a chart affixed to her cell door.

It is impossible to have every arrestee on suicide watch. He must have meant everyone charged with a murder would be placed on suicide watch, or every high profile inmate will be on suicide watch. You don't place someone arrested on traffic tickets, DUI, misdemeanors, and most felony offenders on suicide watch. You can't because there would not be enough special cells or officers.

I think Shelby should be on extended suicide watch. She is going to realize that most of her friends will no longer be her friends (although some will), she will see her mother grieving for little Tyler when she visits later on, and she will know how much quite a few people are so totally disgusted by what she has done. She should be housed alone because she really would be in danger if placed in the general jail population. Please don't take that as my wanting her to be protected because if it were up to me she would have the same thing done to her as she did to Tyler. She would be a liability to the jail if placed in general population. It just isn't going to happen, IMO. Besides, I really don't care what happens to her.

GB this precious Little Tyler. He is truly an angel now.

 

[Amster]

wow....ok....I give up. Equating the disease of cancer with the crime of murdering a baby is too much. I don't do the collective guilt thing and do not believe in making excuses for murdering a baby....PPD or ABC or any other letter grab bag used to "understand" evil.

 

[cluciano63]

Seeing how Child Services and the courts are (mostly) determine that mothers and babies should not be separated, I doubt there will be much of a decrease in the years ahead of such incidents. Even if this mother had a prior incident of abusing Tyler, she probably would still have had custody, or had custody returned to her after a short class of some kind. As long as the biological fact of giving birth is such a strong point in determining what happens to a child, there will always be deaths and injuries to babies and children, IMO. The true welfare of a child is not the real issue, IMO; the goal seems to continue to be to reunite mother and child, which is too frequently not the safe choice. JMO

 

[Flutterby80]

wow....ok....I give up. Equating the disease of cancer with the crime of murdering a baby is too much. I don't do the collective guilt thing and do not believe in making excuses for murdering a baby....PPD or ABC or any other letter grab bag used to "understand" evil.

Does it seem like I'm making excuses? Trust me, I am not. If by saying I hope we can find a way to stop child abuse from occuring makes it seem that I am excusing those who abuse their children, then maybe I am not stating my opinion very well. That is certainly not what I mean.

 

[21merc7]

Actually, a real suicide watch will have her in a paper dress and she will be beside a control room with a big window where she can be seen at all times. A hall duty officer will check on her every 15 minutes and log it into a chart affixed to her cell door.

It is impossible to have every arrestee on suicide watch. He must have meant everyone charged with a murder would be placed on suicide watch, or every high profile inmate will be on suicide watch. You don't place someone arrested on traffic tickets, DUI, misdemeanors, and most felony offenders on suicide watch. You can't because there would not be enough special cells or officers.

I think Shelby should be on extended suicide watch. She is going to realize that most of her friends will no longer be her friends (although some will), she will see her mother grieving for little Tyler when she visits later on, and she will know how much quite a few people are so totally disgusted by what she has done. She should be housed alone because she really would be in danger if placed in the general jail population. Please don't take that as my wanting her to be protected because if it were up to me she would have the same thing done to her as she did to Tyler. She would be a liability to the jail if placed in general population. It just isn't going to happen, IMO. Besides, I really don't care what happens to her.

GB this precious Little Tyler. He is truly an angel now.

I know, I was just repeating what was said in the presser yesterday. Starts at post 1298 & 1300 here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154790&page=52

 

[gitana1]

wow....ok....I give up. Equating the disease of cancer with the crime of murdering a baby is too much. I don't do the collective guilt thing and do not believe in making excuses for murdering a baby....PPD or ABC or any other letter grab bag used to "understand" evil.

Does it seem like I'm making excuses? Trust me, I am not. If by saying I hope we can find a way to stop child abuse from occuring makes it seem that I am excusing those who abuse their children, then maybe I am not stating my opinion very well. That is certainly not what I mean.

I really haven't seen anyone excusing this mother for murdering her precious son. However, I have seen several people going past the, "String that B!$@$* up and beat her like she did her baby! Today! Now!", to
wondering what on earth can really be done to protect babies like Tyler and prevent such atrocities. I think that's also a natural response and a smart one if we are ever to get a handle on such horrors.

I'd venture to guess that almost everyone asking why believes she should stay in jail at least until she can never have another child again, if not longer.

 

[laniefi]

From doing some reading online there are many of Shelby's self-procliamed friends who are madder than a wet hornet (rightfully so IMO) and there are others who are still in disbelief/denial.

Poor little guy - so many people loved you - but the one person YOU loved the most took back the life they had given you without any right to do so.

 

[TorisMom003]

How many cases of a "mother" killing her child/children does it take for us to understand why it happens? What's the magic number, if there is one? Every day there is another case in the news concerning a child that has been abused, killed, etc. At what point do we say "Now I see that this is sometimes (most often IMO) because the person that would do this is just plain evil"? All of the discussion in the world is not stopping it from happening. If anything it seems to be getting worse. If a "mother" is not held accountable for her actions (or inactions) against her child then what makes the upcoming "mothers" think that they need to do a better job themselves? Society has gone downhill progressively over the years. Instead of getting better things are getting worse.

So is there a point where we say that sometimes a person is just plain evil, lock them up away from society for the rest of their lives and move on? Or must we disect every action to find some way to explain how a "mother" that is supposed to be loving and protective of their children can abuse and/or kill their children?

IMO I see these types of cases in two categories. On one side we have the ones like Andrea Yates. On the other side we have the ones like Casey Anthony. I sympathize with the ones like Andrea. The ones that realize after what they have done and live the rest of their lives in constant pain over what they have done. I say we study them. We find out how better to help those kind. The Casey Anthony types, the ones that are beyond selfish that do abuse/kill their kids for revenge or because they don't want them anymore......I don't need to know anything else about them. The world would be a better place if they were no longer alive IMO because you can not rehabilitate or even fully understand pure and simple evil.

MOO

 

[Kelly Faraday]

I agree that it is important that we talk about the REALITIES of parenting. I think there is something inside most of us that is deathly afraid to admit we have weak moments as parents. I have never, will never spank or so much as slapped my son's hand BUT I will shamefully admit to having flashes of violent thoughts on one occasion when he was up several nights in a row and I had gotten zero sleep. I knew it wasn't his fault. There is something in me, some internal mechanism that will not allow those thoughts to become reality. I think people who snap and whale on their kids are missing whatever that is due to what....drugs? Immaturity? A bad upbringing? I don't know the answer, but I do think it would be more helpful if parents felt it was ok to speak honestly about having those feelings instead of being ashamed.

When my son, the love and light of my life, was just a couple months old, I remember standing on the second floor balcony of our apartment at around 3 am. I had him in my arms and he was crying, had been crying for several nights in a row. I worked full-time. I had just bought us a house and was trying to not only pack up our apartment, but paint and clean the new house so that we could move in. I was a single mom with absolutely zero help and support from my son's dad. I was literally operating on probably six hours sleep over three days time. I could not lay my son down and walk away because if I let him cry like that, the neighbors would not be happy. The people upstairs had already banged on the floor a few times when he would cry. I couldn't put him in the car and drive around like I had the previous nights because I was so incredibly tired that it wouldn't have been safe. As I stood there, I had a horrible thought...if I threw him off my second floor deck, I bet he would stop crying. I actually saw myself doing it. It was the most horrifying thing, to have this thought in my head. Fortunately, that little switch in my brain kicked in and snapped me the heck out of it and fast. My point is, I think some people are missing that switch. And I think it might be helpful for those people to hear from the rest of us that they are not alone in having these horrible moments, but there are ways to handle it and get through it.

Bless you Flutterby80. Thankfully you had that "switch" and your boy is OK.

It was so thoughtful and courageous of you to share such a personal story. Who knows how many will read this and realize they are not the only mom who has been tired and at her wits end and had a thought she would have never had in her right mind. When I say "right mind", I simply mean when you are exhausted it severely affects your thought processes. I mean no disrespect.

Point is, you have no idea how many will read your post and benefit from what you have said.

Have a blessed day.

K.

P.S. I wish Shelby had been like you.

 

[JeannaT]

I think we are doing all of the future babies of this world a terrible disservice if we don't try to understand it. Working to understand child abuse will hopefully lead to finding ways to prevent it. Understanding why someone does something doesn't negate their responsibility. It doesn't take away the sorrow and anger we all feel. It just, hopefully, saves some babies. What could be wrong with that?

I think one of the things that would be really helpful is educating the public in what to look for in a potential abuser. As mothers, we all have seen mothers who are terrible and heartless. My guess is, it was pretty obvious to everyone around her that she didn't want to be bothered by this child. She may have had her moments of tenderness, but it sounds like in general, he was irritating to her. That pic of him in the bathtub - what did she see when she looked at that pic? That is one sad, sad little boy. When she looked at that, did it look cute to her? So the more proactive the community is, at spotting that and seeking help when it's warranted for abusive and neglectful parents, the better. And this sweet baby may not have died completely in vain.

 

[Kat]

This post isn't directed at anyone's post, just some food for thought.

IMHO a mom who kills her child doesn't necessarily have to be suffering from any emotional or psychological disorder. Just like a great many of either gender that murder others aren't emotionally or psychologically disordered (or mentally ill).

IMHO she didn't have to hate him. The opposite of love isn't hate IMHO it's apathy. She only had to be emotionally disconnected enough from him to be apathetic to his needs and to see his needs as an affront to her at the moment and act out in anger.

IMHO there are numerous resources to assist young parents in that area. I'm very impressed with it actually. I wish we had some of those in my community. How to prevent this from happening? That is a question that has been asked and debated for longer than I've been alive. Even if all resources are available there are still children being killed by their parents or caregivers, newborns still being abandoned in trashcans sometimes not even a block from safe haven designated spots.

There is no answer to protect all of these children above and beyond the resources already in place IMHO. But, I personally, am making sure that all of my children (aged from teens up to 31 and the 31 year old I did do this but she's well into adulthood now) have protection from not only STD's but unplanned pregnancies. All of them---males and females. I talk to them all the time about it. IMHO the only way to prevent a child from being murdered by a parent or caregiver is to prevent that pregnancy.

A bit out there I admit. But that's how I'm handling it in my home. All JMHO

 

[21merc7]

Kat;

That's what I did with DD. From the age she could read, to the library we would go, and I would sneak in age appropriate books on procreation and what have you, with the fun ones. Then a lovely thing happened. Majic Johnson spoke on a children's program about HIV, she asked if we could watch it. I said "SURE!" So we did and we talked, she was maybe 10, that opened the bigger can of worms, but all done in a very mature and understanding manner. I think it curbed the curiosity a bit, so she waited for marriage to have little ones of her own.

ETA: I also explained about birth control, and told her "he" would need it too, that was easy after the Majic Johnson show. Showed her where they were in the drug store every time we went, that may have been overboard though, lol.

 

[Melanie]

WOW I can't believe after a confession she would have the nerve to plead NG. I smell a insanity plea coming......

She didn't plea. If you don't have an attorney, the judge will automatically enter a not guilty plea for you -- which he did.

Judge Permuter entered a not guilty plea for Dasher. Dasher did not have an attorney in court and she said she did not have money for an attorney.

The rights she was read specifically state she has a right to an attorney:

You have the right to speak to an attorney, and to have an attorney present during any questioning. If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be provided for you at government expense.

Personally, I don't want this case thrown out because her Miranda rights were violated. The judge was only doing his job by entering the not guilty plea until an attorney can be appointed to her.

Not defending the woman by any means, but pointing out that I don't want to see her civil rights violated and watch her end up walking out of jail.

MOO

Mel

 

[Flutterby80]

I am fairly new to this board so I'm wondering if by pleading not guilty to the second degree murder charge, that opens the door for her to plea to a lesser charge of manslaughter or something where she might only serve a few years.

 

[MagnoliaMom]

I don't think anyone can truly understand being a mom until they actually become one.
Before I was a mom, I remember being irritated at people who constantly took off work for reasons related to their children. After I became a mom, I found great humor in those thoughts. I now wonder how they ever got to work at all.

At Tyler's age, they are so truly defenseless. Dangers are everywhere and even with the most vigilant mom, sometimes things happen. The world is a wonderment to them and they want to explore it all. It breaks my heart to think of him crying on his last morning. He was hungry, probably wet and wanted to be loved and adored. He deserved to have those needs met.

All of you that are moms know the joy on a child's face when they first see you in the morning. They are so glad to see you and so trusting. They are searching your face for an indication of how you feel. Their whole demeanor changes.

Tyler I am so sorry your cries were not answered with the love and comfort they deserved.

I have only seen one picture of the mother but in it she looks so angry. There is no sadness, no grief, no shame. I have to wonder if there were warning signs.

So senseless. If she wanted to sleep, she could have gone to bed when Tyler did and she would have gotten plenty of sleep.

 

[Mustang Sally]

I think culture may play a huge role in what SEEMS to be an increase in child murders. I know it has gone on literally forever...my own sweet Grandma and her seven siblings were severely abused in every way imaginable. They had a horrid life, and she was born before 1920. But it does seem the last two generations have raised a crop of selfish, whiny, lazy people who are now having babies. There are so many people in this world who expect life to be easy. Things that our grandparents considered a privilege (a car, a college education, etc.) are now considered to be rights. Immediate gratification is something the older generations didn't expect. If you wanted something, you worked and saved for it. If you wanted people to respect you, you behaved in a responsible way. If you wanted good children, you put in the work and raised them to be decent human beings. This culture of giving your children everything they want and running to school to cuss out the teacher when they get into trouble is ruining people. MOO

A simple thanks was not enough..

I taught First Grade for 33 years and a big part of my retirement was exactly what your last sentence states:

"""This culture of giving your children everything they want and running to school to cuss out the teacher when they get into trouble is ruining people."""

The sense of "Entitlement" is the main reason the Schools Today are in such a mess.....Teachers are not supported by the parents...they are usually treated as an Enemy...the students do NOT work hard to get "Good Grades".....they just expect them to be given to them because they attend school! """Entitlement & Immediate Gratification!!!"""

OK off my rant.....

I will NOT spend my time giving "Shelby" any attention....She does NOT deserve my anger...She Deserves My Disgust!

The Unbelieveable SADNESS in ME is for ""Little Tyler"" and the fact that his own mother did NOT value his "LIFE!" It is exceedenly SAD that his life was taken by his mom so that she could sleep off her "Bad Night of Partying."

Wondering how many times he had suffered her ANGER....Too bad she was never observed hurting him and them maybe she would have been turned over to the "Children's Protective Services" of her state. Then maybe she would have be educated on Proper Parenting and given some oversight, thus saving "Little Tyler's LIFE!"

I choose to give a lot of time being a "Guardian ad Litem"... giving love and support to the children that I am assigned. They are the ones that need it due to being in the Court System because of the "Horrible Choices" that their parent/s made. It is so sad to watch these INNOCENT CHILDREN...have they lives torn up side down and many have lasting emotional trauma...I am hoping that I can make a small difference in their lives and give them some loving support and show them that SOMEONE actually cares about THEM!

My heart also breaks for the "Grandmother", the other Grandparents and the Birth Father and any other relativies and Friends!!....The sadness and guilt that they are feeling is way beyond my comprehension....They have been cheated out of watching this "Beautiful Boy" grow into a productive adult..."Little Tyler".....had so much untapped potiental..He could have grown up to find the Cure for Cancer....But his selfish mother put an end to his "LIFE!"

Dear God..Please Bless the Soul of Tyler Dasher..Give Him Some Love and Let Him Run and Play with Caylee Antony, Trenton Ducket, HaLeigh Cummings, JonBenet Ramsey, Nevaeh Buchanan, Kyron Horman, Zarah Baker... and ALL the other Sad Missing Children whose lives were taken from Them!

 

[Karmaa]

If hand-wringing over Tyler's mother saves one future baby from being beaten and dumped like garbage, how can anyone find fault with it? I don't see anyone on this thread saying Shelby deserves easy treatment no matter what her excuses might be. Shelby's guilt and the reason she killed her baby are two separate things, IMO. Ok, if the reason is that she is selfish and hateful, let's figure out how to stop producing selfish and hateful people. Let's talk about it. Let's research it. Let's STOP IT FROM HAPPENING.

How many people who read and comment on this thread do not share what they read with other people in their lives? Do your friends and family want to discuss dead babies with you? In my case, no. Nobody in my life wants this heavy weight on their hearts. It's painful. This, IMO, is part of the problem. There was a time when people wouldn't talk about cancer either, but then someone made it ok and now they are figuring out cures and preventions right and left.

Flutterby - you are absolutely correct. And, I have one thing to offer that gives us all the opportunity to DO something, and not just feel something. VOLUNTEER! Seriously - I know several others on WS who are child advocates (as am I) and we give a little or a lot of time to help the "end result" of child abuse. But there are programs everywhere. Working with pregnant teens, working with abused kids, new mothers.

Just do it! It's amazing, not only will you maybe be able to help someone who needs it , it will make YOU feel better. Guaranteed. I have yet to meet anyone who did not get positive benefits from volunteering.

 

[Mish]

http://www.cbsnews.com/i/tim/2011/11/16/Tyler+Dasher+1_540x405.jpg


fly with the angels little one

That's it, I've had it with people killing their precious children! This picture made me burst into tears; Tyler looks like he is looking right at us, but he's dead- because his "mom" cared more about her comforts than that of her precious baby. A baby that many people would give anything to have, hold and care for- forever.

I'm sorry, I went thru hell to have my two sons- I lost a baby from a miscarriage and was never able to get pregnant again. I endured surgeries, then endured 6 adoptions (two gals ran away a week before birth, one changed her mind and one had a miscarriage), over $150 thousand, a million tears, and so much more. And I would go through it all again, because my precious children are GIFTS from God! Tyler was a beautiful, priceless gift and that "pathetic excuse for a mom" killed him just because she didn't want to hear her child's cries. I have just had it with people doing this- what in the world is going on these days?:furious:

 

[BritsKate]

I am all for attempting to understand what causes mothers to kill but I think there is a very fine line between comprehension and rationalization. The overwhelming majority of young, abused, poor, barely educated, addicted or mentally ill women do not murder their children.

I honestly believe the key to cutting filicide is not only understanding the underlying causes that may be present (without minimizing the mother's involvement) but also taking a much harsher stance on it than society has previously done. I believe that we need to accept mothers who murder by and far have made a choice and they should be held as responsible for their choices as we hold paternal filicides.

Some researchers of filicide argue that while general homicides have fallen over the last quarter century parents murdering their children (especially infanticides) are actually on the rise. It is a new breed of mother who murders now though than when filicide categorization was first developed. Overwhelmingly the mothers who murder in our generation show a level of entitlement, selfishness, apathy and narcissism in my opinion. And while changes in society may account for some of that personal responsibility of the murderer should not and cannot be diminished as a result. Yet that is often the case and we are left with a legacy of more mothers who murder their child.

Casey Anthony was not the first mother to kill her child and not be held fully accountable. Casey Anthony will not be the last. While mothers who murder are somehow portrayed as victims of society instead of pariahs we will continue to watch these cases unfold at increasing rates. JMVHO