Nuisanceposter,
We cannot be certain John did not know about the size-12's.
I agree. I'm assuming he didn't know about them, but we don't know that for certain. JR taking the time to concern himself with the location of gifts for Patsy's family seems out of character for him - IMO - but that doesn't mean that's all there is to it. There are always variables to consider.
Patsy may have told him they were going to Atlanta with them. He may have come across them when preloading the plane with stuff?
And there's a perfectly viable variable right there.
I was just thinking: if it was December 26th, the morning after Christmas, and that package of bloomies for Jenny was in the Rs basement (or wherever)...when were the Rs supposed to send that package off? Perhaps they intended to take them with them and see to its delivery while on the second Christmas celebration with JRs older kids.
That would pretty much explain it for me, thanks.
Patsy may have told him where they were whilst she went and prepared a draft of the ransom note.
Hmmm. That would explain that. I can't believe I hadn't ever thought of that before.
In lots of cases there is always something that seems inexplicable and in the context of a staging placing those size-12's onto JonBenet, is such an instance. It might simply be one of those irrational things that occur in the execution of a crime.
For us its a very large red flag, we all know it invalidates the wine-cellar crime-scene, when added to the pineapple evidence, it blows a hole in the Ramsey defense that it was IDI.
The size 12 bloomies are extremely curious. There are so many questions that one aspect of the staging calls up.
I've followed the investigation of JonBenet Ramsey's murder since I first heard about it on tv in Dec. of 1996. I watched that CNN interview with John and Patsy where she's doped to the rafters and they're "not angry" and "just want to move on" the day it aired, a week after the murder. I actually thought DA Hunter was going to do something as I watched the "umbrella of suspicion" press farce. I held my breath as I waited to hear the verdict of the Grand Jury, and gasped in disappointment when I did hear. I read everything I could find whether on a list for a new release from the library (DOI) or scanning tabloid headlines at the check-out to see if it was worth the cover price to read the full article undisturbed.
And in all of that time, there was basically NOTHING about the size 12s. I didn't find out all about those until I made my way to WS et al after finally getting internet (dial-up back then, ha.) Most people out there who haven't done the level of studying people here do do not know about the size 12s at all.
There is no way an intruder would have known where those bloomies were in order to have dressed her in them, and no reason to believe an intruder who had just sexually assaulted and strangled a child in her own home would risk staying around long enough to redress the dead child, in any size bloomies. IDI fails right here. Those underwear were not in the drawer - JonBenet could not have dressed herself in them. Someone who knew they were there put them on her, and the only people who have known they were there were the Rs.
So whether it was Patsy or John, IMO, is not something to get hung upon, since we can all accept the parents were involved in the wine-cellar staging.
Agreed. There's definite evidence of both, just on fiber evidence alone. I also think both were involved in writing the RN, but the handwriting analysis shows only one person cannot be excluded as the author - Patsy.
Patsy's story about the size-12's is at odds with the actual evidence,
She's a liar.
so if she re-dressed JonBenet, why did she not place the remaining size-12's into her underwear drawer?
Like the pineapple left on the table, I assume that detail was overlooked and then got lost in the grand overall staging scheme.
Unfortunately, due to Patsy being said liar, we'll never know.
Another interpretation is that Patsy was aware that JonBenet had been sexually assaulted and was complicit in the crime-scene staging, and she did indeed redress JonBenet, but when it came to her Atlanta Interview she simply attempted to lie her way out of the situation, hoping to distance herself from the big mistake?
Yep, that pretty much sums up what I suspect. IMO, there is NO WAY that Patsy did not know JonBenet was being sexually abused.
All of the health records from both pediatrician and school being vaulted and never made public - why?
All of the Monday visits to the school nurse JonBenet made in the weeks preceding her murder - why?
The three calls to Dr. Beuf in one evening, within about an hour time frame, days before the murder, and neither Patsy nor the dr's office can remember what those three calls were about - why?
The toilet regression, so bad JonBenet not only wet but soiled herself, to the point of suffering infections. Patsy refusing to acknowledge it other than to let her wet/soil herself and then clean her off and wait for it to magically clear up on its own. I think part of that is due to the pressure Patsy put on JonBenet to live a pageant winner lifestyle, but there's obviously more to it when the autopsy says there is evidence of chronic abuse in an area no six year old girl should have to even know exists. Why?
Patsy made that weird comment about how she knew JR wasn't molesting JonBenet while she was recovering from cancer because her mother Nedra Paugh was right there - and then there's the weird comment Nedra herself made about JonBenet having been "a little bit molested."
What? Why was Patsy referencing the worry that JR might molest JonBenet in the first place? Where did that even come from, and why was that so in the front of her mind that it spilled out of her mouth before she realized how such a statement could be interpreted?
Why would a grandmother downplay the molestation her six year old granddaughter suffered, whether it was a one time event on the night the child was murdered or as an event ongoing in the child's life prior to the murder, in any way at all?
I'm not sure Patsy wasn't the abuser.
IMO Someone sexually assaulted JonBenet, then there was an altercation involving JonBenet, which led to JonBenet being whacked on the head and on her body. This in turn led to some kind of initial staging e.g. JonBenet being relocated to her own bed? Later this was revised to JonBenet being relocated to the wine-cellar. The wine-cellar move must surely be predicated upon the assumption of abduction, and seems to have been a very last minute decision, given the wine-cellar was not completed.
I agree completely. My theory is basically the same: someone was in the act of abusing JonBenet and it somehow got out of control, resulting in JonBenet being mortally wounded by the skull fracture. Whoever was there at the moment of impact MUST have heard her skull fracture, as bad as the damage was...and if they had the nerve to check her scalp for bleeding/swelling/bruising, they may have run their fingers over the spot and felt how bad the damage was. I can hardly stand to look at the autopsy pics.
Some say JonBenet may have been immediately unconscious going into comatose, some say she may have experienced seizures or convulsions from the injury to the brain, but I think the person who inflicted the injury would know it was bad
real bad just by hearing the sound of bone being crushed on impact.
The blood on her pillow, prompting detectives to question Patsy about night time nosebleeds, seems to indicate an initial yet aborted scene for staging. They needed to get her farther away from the family than in her bed, to reinforce the kidnapping scenario, so the wine cellar room was the best choice, being the farthest away from the rest of the fam they could JonBenet without putting her outside - and they can't risk that. Not only might they been seen or leave evidence, but JonBenet has GOT to be picture perfect for her funeral so Patsy can display her in an open casket.
Yes, I guarantee you that last bit was on Patsy's mind, even as they staged the wine cellar scene. I am believer in the "Patsy loved being the mother of a murdered beauty queen" angle.
I think she really did love it. She called JonBenet "America's Princess" and I felt sad for JonBenet - the former Little Miss Christmas was now America's Princess in Death. I saw with great dismay that the very same title, "America's Princess", was given to Caylee Anthony when the world learned of her name and fate. I had to stop and smile to myself for a second, wondering how that would have gone over with Patsy, had she still been alive to see it.
Back on track, I agree, the wine cellar scene was the last minute option and while it appears as though they threw everything they had into it, they overlooked this and left out that here and there, indicating it was only as complete as they could get it in the time frame they felt they had.
So it appears that JDI+PDI is the most realistic scenario. If you reckon its PDI, then why would John take the risk of leaving his fibers on JonBenet's genitals. Helping Patsy is one thing, but leaving a forensic trail that implies culpability, is something else.
Good question. I don't know. It seems to me as though JR tried as hard as possible to leave as much up to Patsy as he could - she wrote the RN, she supposedly woke up first and made the initial discovery of the RN/JonBenet gone, she made the 911 call, and, if other evidence such as fiber evidence is proof, she tied the ligature on JonBenet's neck, put the tape over JonBenet's face, and she dressed JonBenet in the size 12s and long johns.
This is where I really have to wonder what JR's involvement is. There is no question in my mind that he was involved from well before Patsy called 911 - he never tried to stop her from calling people despite having read the warnings that JB will be beheaded if they do, and he had no argument about sending Burke out of the R house, as if he was very aware there was no kidnapper and no reason to fear for the safety of either Burke or JonBenet.
But what exactly is his involvement? Why would he choose to help Patsy cover up abuse that took the life of a second daughter of his, after his deep grief over the loss of the first, Beth...if he had no involvement in the abuse or the event that caused the skull fracture that brought on the need to stage a crime scene so it didn't look like death by abuse?
This is where I'm not sure that JR wasn't the abuser.
It does look like the staging was done in stages, and not as part of some grand staging plan, it was more evolution than revolution. The unfinished aspects of the staging and the crudeness of some features e.g. restraints, along with the size-12's suggests not a great deal of thought was applied.
This would be where Patsy is writing the RN and JR doing who knows what, most likely staging the crime scene. That makes perfect sense. I don't know why, but I've always had this mental image of John and Patsy both working on the RN together from start to finish, and that probably wasn't the case at all.
How do you know John's touch-dna is not all over JonBenet's clothing, including her size-12's?
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Dude. Now that you ask, I don't know that it isn't. That's a really good point. We have so much information on this case (yet frustratingly, not enough) that I didn't consider that a fact like that might have been held back, even at this date. After all, look at how long it took before I found out about the size 12s.
Really excellent stuff. I feel like I've progressed my personal theory in this conversation, filled in some small holes that needed going over. Thank you.
