TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #12

[JBean]

Yes the description matches #3 closely. I'm not sure which one is the bear or in which picture, it maybe confusing me.

we don't know when all these pictures were taken and that's why it is confusing,imo. One article says the rocks were on the edge of the road and another says the rocks were by the road and the rocks were in front of the grassy area so that would be consistent. So it could be one of the other depicted areas before rocks were added. I don't think we can tell yet.

>>Sheriff Hammond said the Jeep, when it went over, took with it a bear-shaped rock about the size of a car tire. He said a resident across East Brow Road had placed a series of large rocks by the road to deter drivers from going onto the property. Beyond the rocks was a grassy strip. There were hedges beyond that.<<
http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_214723.asp

>>Residents had noticed that one of the large rocks that was on the edge of the road was missing but they didn't connect to the missing woman.<<

http://timesfreepress.com/news/2011/dec/01/gail-palmgrens-jeep-found/

 

[CarmelEyesD]

What about if she was backing in something like this to turn around, and hit the gas instead of the brake-or thought she had shifted into drive, but actually was still in reverse? If she was very distraught, something like that could have happened...

 

[JBean]

Here is a picture and we can see one of the boulders at the site, part oif the wall and the grassy area-no railroad tie sitting up on the road.

 

[christee]

Wow, I hadn't seen this photo until just a few minutes ago...

caption under pic says "Recovery personnel bring the first evidence bag from the Gail Palmgren crash site down from the side of Signal Mountain Saturday afternoon at 2 p.m."
Photo by Tim Barber.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2011/dec/03/technicians-scene-now-removing-palmgren-remains/

 

[hollyblue]

How amazing it is that they could track the fall?

I think it's amazing they can track her cell to a specific convenience store, yet they didn't know the area where the phone was. No mention of E Brow Rd...previously. Guess I'm not getting it. :waitasec:

Back to lurking on this case.

 

[hollyblue]

The rear hitting the ground first, if true, doesn't make sense at all. The car weight is all in the engine so how it would manage to hit rear first is puzzling. Backing over accidentally sounds very unlikely to me.
My BIL is a PhD in physics so I am going to ask him for his thoughts.

Inertia and gravity. If it was 250' to the end of the first sheer bluff....enough time to have turned in mid air and landing on it backend. imo

 

[hollyblue]

One article said the rock weighed a couple hundred pounds. I can find the link shortly.
I 100% concur that backing over a rock and forcing it off the cliff does not make sense at "back up" speeds, from what we knw at this time. Additonally, I assume the rock which was shaped like a bear, was not a flat rock, and her jeep sets high off the ground.
She was on a straight away but reaching for a phone or purse would be enough to drive off the road but doesn;t make any sense it terms of landing rear end first, if true.

I have more questions than answers I am afraid.

IDK JBean, it may be possible. If you had a 300# football player scrunched up in a ball and 5000# vehicle coming at it---even at 10 or 15 mph..I would think it/he would be moved. ?

 

[Analyze This]

I only became a member of WS in the past couple of weeks, but I have read on the website for a long time. I followed the news of Gail's disappearance from the beginning. My condolences to Gail's family and friends. I had always hoped that this would have a happier ending, but I am relieved that her family will not be left without answers.

This is just my opinion, but I have done a fair amount of off roading with various Jeep models (certainly no expert). Typically, with a front end impact you would expect the rear end to lift off of the ground, rolling the vehicle and causing it to land on the roof. In this case, the slope was dropping away as the Jeep was flipping causing the Jeep to rotate further than would normally be the case. As the Jeep was dropping, it was getting closer to impacting the ground.

The key question here is height of the rock and the speed of the Jeep. If the rock was lower than the bumper, the Jeep would've gone "up" front end first. If the rock was tall enough to fully impact the front bumper, the rear end would've lifted on impact. In my opinion, the Jeep was likely traveling at a high enough rate of speed that the forward momentum "propelled" the Jeep into an end over end roll. If Gail hadn't hit that rock, the Jeep would've likely just "sailed" over the edge and would've hit front end first.

All just my opinion of course, but would really like to hear from someone with a lot more knowledge than I have.

 

[Oriah]

In the pictures shown of the vehicle after it came to rest against the tree, it appears to me as if the front end is still somewhat intact. You can see the grill, lights and rock rails. Which seems to support the theory that the initial impact was the rear of the vehicle, and then perhaps it rolled on its side (which would explain the significant top damage, especially considering the softtop.)

If it left the bluff with enough force to gain some air- even if just a bit- then I can see it hitting foliage nose first and then being bumped back to hit on the tail end, all of which would slow the momentum and probably bump it back to its' heaviest side-which I would imagine being the drivers side- and then rolling on its' side a remaining 100 ft or so until stopped by trees.

I can also see it sort of 'driving' down the first part of the bluff, hitting an obstruction, and then flipping, causing the greatest impact to be to the tail end. Without having the added protection the front end has, it seems logical that the tail end of the vehicle would show more impact than the front end- even if the front end took a greater hit.

Idk. I am no crash scene investigator.

The timeline still doesn't make sense to me.
If Gail was last seen leaving their residence at 12:15pm, and investigators are estimating 12:25pm as the change in elevation- the crash site is roughly 3.3 miles from the Palmgren residence- clocked at about 9 minutes. Well, that all fits with the time line. But doesn't leave a lot of room for stopping at the convenience store- nor the more extended conversation with her sister- nor time to reach the base of SM (ping) and then turn around and return.

Still perplexed here.

 

[Oriah]

I only became a member of WS in the past couple of weeks, but I have read on the website for a long time. I followed the news of Gail's disappearance from the beginning. My condolences to Gail's family and friends. I had always hoped that this would have a happier ending, but I am relieved that her family will not be left without answers.

This is just my opinion, but I have done a fair amount of off roading with various Jeep models (certainly no expert). Typically, with a front end impact you would expect the rear end to lift off of the ground, rolling the vehicle and causing it to land on the roof. In this case, the slope was dropping away as the Jeep was flipping causing the Jeep to rotate further than would normally be the case. As the Jeep was dropping, it was getting closer to impacting the ground.

The key question here is height of the rock and the speed of the Jeep. If the rock was lower than the bumper, the Jeep would've gone "up" front end first. If the rock was tall enough to fully impact the front bumper, the rear end would've lifted on impact. In my opinion, the Jeep was likely traveling at a high enough rate of speed that the forward momentum "propelled" the Jeep into an end over end roll. If Gail hadn't hit that rock, the Jeep would've likely just "sailed" over the edge and would've hit front end first.

All just my opinion of course, but would really like to hear from someone with a lot more knowledge than I have.

Hi Analyze This and welcome to WS's.

I tend to agree but there is one thing that I can't wrap my head around, which is getting enough speed up in that location to propel off the bluff, taking the rock with it.
I have been trying to think of scenarios where I've seen this happen (and certainly- accidents are freak- thus the nature of 'accident'- sometimes you are just left scratching your head and being defied by logic and physics) but the turn off- I am just having a really hard time with.

The other vehicle found at the site is also very interesting to me. Wondering did it follow the same trajectory? Is it possible that vehicle took the rock with it?

 

[Cazzie]

I do believe there is a good chance that Gail simply had a terrible accident and went off the road. It would be extremely difficult, IMO, to force a vehicle off the road hitting it hard enough to make sure the person would be killed, without severe damage to your own vehicle not to mention possible injury, and also, people walk away from "totaled" cars all the time; it would be pretty risky, in case Gail had survived or managed to tell someone on the phone that "so and so just ran me off the road".

Of course anything is possible, but I won't be shocked if her case is ruled an accident. I am glad her family knows for sure now, as sad as the news is, as I think not knowing has to be worse. You lose that tiny bit of hope with the finality, but for myself, I don't think that I would be able to maintain much hope anyway, after all these months. And so many families just never find out...

JMO

Respectfully, I disagree. With the history of Gail's troubled marriage, Matt's affair, apparent DV calls to the home, Gail placing assets with supposed trusted friends....etc., etc., etc...

I think it would be much too coinkie-dinkie that she had an accident.

I don't have much confidence that local LE are really looking into what really happened...not back when she disappeared, nor now. JMO. And I'll leave it at that.

JMO, but we would fail women (and men, but statistically it's usually women who are abused) in need of help to just write this off as an accident. Perhaps there is a minute possibility of it, but I don't think that's what happened. JMO.

Gail. :rose: You didn't deserve this.

I hope for a full investigation by competent SBI, FBI....

 

[Cazzie]

Let's not forget that Matt and his mother both lawyered up early on...

And it took way too long for Matt's house (and hers) to be searched...

'Nuff said... :angel:

 

[Analyze This]

Hi Analyze This and welcome to WS's.

I tend to agree but there is one thing that I can't wrap my head around, which is getting enough speed up in that location to propel off the bluff, taking the rock with it.
I have been trying to think of scenarios where I've seen this happen (and certainly- accidents are freak- thus the nature of 'accident'- sometimes you are just left scratching your head and being defied by logic and physics) but the turn off- I am just having a really hard time with.

The other vehicle found at the site is also very interesting to me. Wondering did it follow the same trajectory? Is it possible that vehicle took the rock with it?

Thank you for the welcome.

I agree that the turn off is the bizarre part of this situation. I can wrap my head around the actual crash, but the events that precipitated the crash are still very puzzling. I did wonder about sun glare. Is it possible that the sun was in Gail's eyes, she was distracted while driving and may have been momentarily sun blinded? I don't know the area at all, but several folks have mentioned that it was a very nice weather day.

 

[Emeralgem]

Thank you for the welcome.

I agree that the turn off is the bizarre part of this situation. I can wrap my head around the actual crash, but the events that precipitated the crash are still very puzzling. I did wonder about sun glare. Is it possible that the sun was in Gail's eyes, she was distracted while driving and may have been momentarily sun blinded? I don't know the area at all, but several folks have mentioned that it was a very nice weather day.

Welcome to WS... I'm thinking the sun should have been high in the sky at 12:25 in the afternoon...

 

[SuHarper]

I'm not sure where I read it, but wasn't there a post describing rocks along the road with shrubbery behind that and the Jeep going over the shrubbery? I did a Bing map search and found what might be that location. I'm not sure how to copy the picture, but this is the link. http://binged.it/uDzeLh

 

[Pearl*]

[snipped for space]
I think it would be much too coinkie-dinkie that she had an accident.

I don't have much confidence that local LE are really looking into what really happened...not back when she disappeared, nor now. JMO. And I'll leave it at that.

JMO, but we would fail women (and men, but statistically it's usually women who are abused) in need of help to just write this off as an accident. Perhaps there is a minute possibility of it, but I don't think that's what happened. JMO.

http://www.wrcbtv.com/global/catego...d=6514094&topVideoCatNo=123979&autoStart=true


Sheriff comments begin at mark 2:10 and are finished at 3:00. He does seem to be emphasizing the fact she didn't go off at a curve. I just don't get the impression he believes this is an accident. I'm still interested in the specific video clips of the sheriff speaking. Rather than transcribing them, I'm going to sift through and mark them like I have done this one.

I know that, from the viewpoint of many, our local LE hasn't been particularly impressive, but I'm leaning now toward thinking we may have been selling them short. I think they're looking at this from every possible angle and doing it in a very careful, methodical manner. They're consulting experts from all over in making decisions on how to proceed, and they are asking for on-scene assistance from other agencies, including the military.

I also think LE must have had some very good reasons for the parts of information withheld from the public. We just don't yet know what they are.

I'm so interested in the sheriff's actual statements, because he is the one person I'm guessing to be privy to all the information. He's carefully choosing what to say and what to keep, obviously. I think there are clues in what he says and how he says it.

As for the boulder, if the neighbor thought it might have been stolen, then I don't think it's the tremendous rock some of us have been picturing.

ETA: I can't seem to fix my link problem. I'm attempting to link the video that shows with a length of 5:39 and titled "Remains likely found of missing Signal Mtn. mom." When I link it, though, it doesn't go to that particular video. Maybe a mod can help me with the link edit.

ETA #2: Not the sheriff speaking, but the reporter comments about the boulder, referencing comments from neighbors and joggers, is from mark 2:05 - 2:35 in video titled "Investigators to reconstruct wreck on Palmgren's jeep," video length 3:10. Again, I'm able to link only the "video landing page" and not the particular video.

ETA #3: Sheriff interview from 1:00 - 3:15 in video length 6:26 "TEAM COVERAGE: Jeep of missing Signal Mountain mom found empty" Monica Caison interview from mark 5:10 - 5:30 in same video.

ETA #4: Video counter moves backward rather than forward. Sheriff speaks very briefly, from mark 2:00 - 1:45. Maybe WDEF video link will work: http://www.wdef.com/news/story/Technology-Helps-in-Search-for-Palmgren/SG0Rx0E-RUCm0wyAoWm7Xw.cspx

 

[Emeralgem]

I'm not sure where I read it, but wasn't there a post describing rocks along the road with shrubbery behind that and the Jeep going over the shrubbery? I did a Bing map search and found what might be that location. I'm not sure how to copy the picture, but this is the link. http://binged.it/uDzeLh

Welcome Su Harper

To my knowledge I haven't read or heard anything that has mentiond Gail's jeep disturbing the rocks along the road and Gail's jeep going over any shrubbery. However, seems to me IF that was indeed the spot where the jeep went off the mountain, people in the area would have immediately noticed rocks and shrubbery were missing...JMHO

 

[carole]

I'm not sure where I read it, but wasn't there a post describing rocks along the road with shrubbery behind that and the Jeep going over the shrubbery? I did a Bing map search and found what might be that location. I'm not sure how to copy the picture, but this is the link. http://binged.it/uDzeLh

That is a great map! It shows the other areas that have been looked here at WS. Thanks for posting it.

 

[Emeralgem]

http://www.wrcbtv.com/global/catego...d=6514094&topVideoCatNo=123979&autoStart=true


Sheriff comments begin at mark 2:10 and are finished at 3:00. He does seem to be emphasizing the fact she didn't go off at a curve. I just don't get the impression he believes this is an accident. I'm still interested in the specific video clips of the sheriff speaking. Rather than transcribing them, I'm going to sift through and mark them like I have done this one.

I know that, from the viewpoint of many, our local LE hasn't been particularly impressive, but I'm leaning now toward thinking we may have been selling them short. I think they're looking at this from every possible angle and doing it in a very careful, methodical manner. They're consulting experts from all over in making decisions on how to proceed, and they are asking for on-scene assistance from other agencies, including the military.

I also think LE must have had some very good reasons for the parts of information withheld from the public. We just don't yet know what it is.

I'm so interested in the sheriff's actual statements, because he is the one person I'm guessing to be privy to all the information. He's carefully choosing what to say and what to keep, obviously. I think there are clues in what he says and how he says it.

As for the boulder, if the neighbor thought it might have been stolen, then I don't think it's the tremendous rock some of us have been picturing.

BBM... I agree, and at the present time I am in total agreement with your thoughts on the subject as to how this tragic situation is being handled by LE in charge...JMHO

 

[ThoughtFox]

Thank you for the welcome.

I agree that the turn off is the bizarre part of this situation. I can wrap my head around the actual crash, but the events that precipitated the crash are still very puzzling. I did wonder about sun glare. Is it possible that the sun was in Gail's eyes, she was distracted while driving and may have been momentarily sun blinded? I don't know the area at all, but several folks have mentioned that it was a very nice weather day.

The sun would be a factor only if this happened in the early morning. The bluff faces East, which is why the road is "East Brow." This was at noon in the spring so as Emeraldgem has stated, the sun would have been directly overhead. In the evening, the sun would be blocked by trees and more of the mountain to the west, so it wouldn't be a factor.