THIS article says what I believe about the motive for the murder and who the perp was

DeeDee,
Most of the time I am but I wouldn't have it any other way they are my world

My step fathers mother always used to buy my two younger sisters the same clothes to make them look like twins even though there is over a year between them my mom hated it.

I will admit I watrched one episode of T&T and was disgusted at these women that call themselvs mothers:eek:hwow: and to be fair some of the kids are pretty bratty; some of the stuff they do to those children some even babies I am sure is child abuse given the fact we live in a developed country (in the UK too) the women i noticed were primarily form the south too, now I'm not saying all southern women are raving lunatics but some of these women geez louies

Ha, I just said that before reading your comment....I believe it has to be a form of child abuse. And the bratty kids are a product of their environment....for the most part "you" (society) cannot solely blame the child, IMO
 
I have been watching Miss America pageants a LONG time. I am in my 60s, and when I was a child my grandfather used to work the lights for the Miss America pageant at the old Convention Center in Atlantic City, NJ.
Atlantic City was just wonderful back then.
And yet over all these years, I cannot recall the name of more than an handful of Miss America winners. So much for worldwide, global fame. I suppose the goal for these pageant hopefuls is to marry a rich man, like Patsy did.
 
I have been watching Miss America pageants a LONG time. I am in my 60s, and when I was a child my grandfather used to work the lights for the Miss America pageant at the old Convention Center in Atlantic City, NJ.
Atlantic City was just wonderful back then.
And yet over all these years, I cannot recall the name of more than an handful of Miss America winners. So much for worldwide, global fame. I suppose the goal for these pageant hopefuls is to marry a rich man, like Patsy did.

No one becomes famous from winning the Miss America pageant; they become famous from what they did afterwards. I don't believe that Miss America is a pipeline to becoming a celebrity, but if you win it, you're probably attractive, talented, eloquent, charismatic, etc....all qualities that celebrities possess. JonBenet probably would have gone onto to marry a rich man; Miss America or not.
 
I never have been keen on Spiritual Premonitions, but anyone can convince themselves of anything if they want to.
However, I am giving some thought to a Purple Christmas Tree for next year as it will be cheaper than painting an entire room. The Salpetre stains will have to wait. Everyone who owns an old, stone house around here has got them, so it is almost a badge of honour, or so I tell myself.

I don't know if Patsy Ramsey killed that poor child. On balance, probably not. But there are some very odd facets to this case which do tend to raise suspicions, although that wouldn't be Patsey Ramsey's fault if Some Other Dude Done It.

I have wondered about The Letter and the $118.00, both of which appear to be pertinent to the family, and who would hang around for long enough to write a three page tome with a dead body in situ?
But then there is the strange DNA, although I expect that this could be explained in a number of ways. No one will know, unless they find out who it belongs to.


I agree that it would be Patsy's fault if someone else did it, because it had to be someone who spent time in the home and knew the family well enough to be very jealous of John and the family's wealth plus have access to pads/pen and possibly write the note over a period of time instead of just that night. Patsy left her kids with the cleaning lady a lot and I guess her alleged alcoholic husband when they should have had a nanny full time. It seems like the bedwetting and possibly other problems started about that time as well. Jon Benet expecting Santa after xmas, the dna on the waist band of both panties and longjohns, and the pineapple, are what kept, and keep me IDI. Just because every person who spent time in the home had an alibi doesn't mean they didn't have some cohort who did not have one. I've never seen any mention at all of this or read a thing about other people being looked into. I'll never understand though, why John doesn't have burning hate inside him to find whoever did this to his daughter even if it takes the rest of his own life. The southern religious fanatic sacrifice theory seems ridiculous, imo. IMO, it was an intruder, a borderline/narcissist, someone with financial difficulties, jealousy, who knew the home well, not too intelligent, had some lower intelligence cohort do the dirty work, and maybe even wanted to cover up sexual abuse of JonBenet, perhaps even done by another child older than JonBenet. Someone who premeditated, groomed JonBenet to expect Santa, and who hoped to insert themself into it all afterward in order to find out how the case was going.
 
Ha, I just said that before reading your comment....I believe it has to be a form of child abuse. And the bratty kids are a product of their environment....for the most part "you" (society) cannot solely blame the child, IMO

I agree with you tessa, the childs behaviour is the product of the women. I too believe this to be child abuse and I only watched the one episode just to beable to comment with knowledge that's all.
 
But the one thing I am pretty certain of is that it wasn't a Ransom thing. So what was the motive?

What is the motive for any child abuse homicide/manslaughter case?

Here's a few ideas for starters:

Parents who kill children: What makes them do it?
http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/20111209/NJNEWS10/312110003/Parents-who-kill-children-What-makes-them-do-

Motives vary from mental illness to abuse to revenge -

"...The psychotic who, for instance, believes their child is the devil.
Killers acting out of “altruism,” believing they are saving the child from a worse fate or from actually suffering."

"Fatal abusers — parents who take beatings a step too far."

"Mothers who kill enter a state of disassociation, Dietz said. It is an altered state of consciousness marked by a breakdown of ordinary psychological functioning that allows people to do the unthinkable by separating the actor from the act. That state is what soldiers experience during combat, he said.."

..Think Andrea Yates....

"....Women who kill children age 1 to 12 are generally suffering from profound mental illness, Dietz said..."
___

Sabot, take your pick....
 
Boy-you must be TIRED.


BTW, the matching mother-daughter thing was very big when I was a child in the 1950s. There were even dolls and paper dolls that wore mother-and-daughter matching fashions. When the Mattel marketed Barbie's little sister Skipper in the early 60s, there was a whole line of little girls' outfits matched to Barbie's older look.
Maybe Nedra went this route with her daughters. But I have a feeling that this was just Patsy's way of projecting herself onto her daughter, reinforcing the "mini-me" aspect of the relationship. A future Miss America contestant- just like Mommy.
When I see moms like Patsy, and even on the MUCH worse Toddlers and Tiaras, I see mothers whose only validation is through their daughters. If the public recognizes that they have a beautiful child then they themselves can vicariously enjoy being that beauty. Not to be mean, but most of those moms are far from beautiful. So they validate their self-worth by forcing the beauty on their daughters. Take away the make-up, costumes and especially the fake hair and what you have are a bunch of spunky but decidedly ordinary little girls, and that is what these moms fear most- that their daughters will repeat their ordinary and in many cases, lower middle class lives.
JB was an exception- she was a truly pretty child, and though Shirley Temple had nothing to worry about, she could sing and dance well enough. She also had a wistful grace and poise. She looked like she deserved to win every crown.
Patsy was also the exception here. She was pretty, smart and modestly talented. She was a perfect Miss America contestant for her day, and with her Southern manners and upbringing, had a more upwardly mobile life course than these TV moms today. For her, she wanted to be sure that JB won that crown that she herself had missed. And for Nedra, she had TWO daughters miss out on that big rhinestone crown, so for her, her steely words "JonBenet, you WILL do it" rang of her determination. There WILL be a Miss America in that family, no matter what it took.
PR WAS smart and talented, (I like her art), and she was educated. I've wondered if she was resentful, at not having a career, etc...I don't know how big her role was in her husband's business, but she was most definately smart enough to handle her own. I don't remember his name, but after this happened, a man, (high up, with her own pageants), came to her defense. He went on and on, about how smart she was, how organized she was, what a great asset she still was to the pageant system.
 
I don't think Patsy was resentful about not having a career. I think she enjoyed the flexibility that not having a 9-5 job gave her. She could spend the entire summer in Charlevoix. She could travel to pageants on the weekends and not have to worry about being tired for work on Monday or missing work on Friday. She could volunteer at High Peaks during the day. I think that it would be a lot easier to be super involved in the community if you had every day free instead of just the weekends.
 
What is the motive for any child abuse homicide/manslaughter case?

Here's a few ideas for starters:

Parents who kill children: What makes them do it?
http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/20111209/NJNEWS10/312110003/Parents-who-kill-children-What-makes-them-do-

Motives vary from mental illness to abuse to revenge -

"...The psychotic who, for instance, believes their child is the devil.
Killers acting out of “altruism,” believing they are saving the child from a worse fate or from actually suffering."

"Fatal abusers — parents who take beatings a step too far."

"Mothers who kill enter a state of disassociation, Dietz said. It is an altered state of consciousness marked by a breakdown of ordinary psychological functioning that allows people to do the unthinkable by separating the actor from the act. That state is what soldiers experience during combat, he said.."

..Think Andrea Yates....

"....Women who kill children age 1 to 12 are generally suffering from profound mental illness, Dietz said..."
___

Sabot, take your pick....

I meant, What was the motive for an outside predator? It all seems a bit pointless to me, and a terrible risk to take, sitting in that house and writing a three page letter demanding a ransom that would prove to be worthless. It just doesn't make sense.
 
I meant, What was the motive for an outside predator? It all seems a bit pointless to me, and a terrible risk to take, sitting in that house and writing a three page letter demanding a ransom that would prove to be worthless. It just doesn't make sense.

A LOT about this case doesn't make sense. That, to me, points to the parents all the more. They tried so hard to point the blame in different directions. The note is an obvious ATTEMPT to portray a kidnapping. Yet, they mention a "foreign faction" to hint at terrorist connection. Then, they mention a bonus amount for an UPCOMING (not a past) bonus to hint at a disgruntled employee, something that was not public knowlwdge. Then, one of the first persons they finger for the police is LHP, their housekeeper. The FIRST words JR said as he carried his dead daughter up from the basement was "This is an inside job". His timing couldn't have been more suspicious. It seemed so "rehearsed". I mean, is this the first thing you'd say having just found your "kidnapped" daughter's gruesome corpse? No- this is the kind of thing you'd say during your COOPERATION in the police investigation. Not something you say 30 SECONDS after you "find" her dead body.
Making that comment to Det. Arndt as you lay your dead child's body on the floor was carefully planned.
Had it stuck to LHP, the Rs could have sacrificed her without a backwards glance, Patsy I am sure, finding some way to justify it in her own mind. Fortunately for LHP, there was not a shred of evidence linking her to this crime.
Another interesting point- LHP DNA and fibers would be expected to be all over that house, just as the parents' would be. Yet- as far as the actual CRIME scene- (body and clothing on the body) NONE. ONLY fibers belonging to the parents were found on the body and on items that were PART of the crime (tape, cord, paint tote, decedent's clothing).
 
"This is an inside job?" Jesus, this gets worse. How many insiders were there?
 
I have always thought the answer lay with someone in the home --- somebody HAD to know something. Just think it's strains credulity to believe a perp would kill a child(elsewhere), then bring her back to her home and get her into the basement without anyone in the family noticing.
In one's own home, sounds that are out of place get noticed (floorboards squeaking, door opening, etc., ).
jmo.

PS. Needed to add, that it was suggested that "Nedras'" (Patsys' mom) ideas may have influenced the ransom note. Was it established at all what calls were made to or from the house that night ? Just curious as I've not read about any calls that night except for the 911 call.

Also, my own opinion of T&T and other child pageants are that they promote the wrong ideas for children--- beauty is fleeting and besides the singing, dancing, etc., it would seem that 'looks' are the main thing . Plus, it seems like our world is too dangerous of a place to promote anything like child pageants--- I think these shows attract people you wouldn't want around your kids.
jmo
 
I watched my first episode of Toddlers and Tiaras today. They focused on three girls and their moms. One thing I noticed was that they all lived in the middle-of-nowhere. And the moms on the show looked young---like they had their pageant queen when they were a teenager---but had aged horribly.
 
Dener Post JBR archive:

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/feb.htm


Ex-Miss America consults with police on case, Feb 27, 1997
http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon37.htm

Van Derbur consulted by police

`In research on survivors, Van Derbur Atler said she found that 68 percent of victims were violated by fathers or stepfathers. The former beauty queen told in 1991 of incest with her father, socialite Francis Van Derbur. The average age of the victim for the first incident is 6. People have a stereotyped image about incest; that it's only a problem in socially unacceptable families, poor families or chaotic families, she said. But, sometimes, those who appear to be the nicest people commit incest, and there is some resistance to accepting that. "We fight against seeing the dark side," Van Derbur Atler said. "My father was just so charming. This happens in the nicest homes." When people who talk to her about the Ramseys say, "It couldn't have happened in this family, in a family so beautiful," she is disheartened about the impact of her work in the last decade.`
 
Y'know SD, that's a really good case to compare this to.

Damn skippy it is!

The VanDam's had, shall we say, some "skeletons in their closet", but completely cooperated with police and little Danielle's killer was caught. Why were the Ramsey's, who are suppposed to be perfect, not cooperating? Well, I think I already know your answer to that!

If you don't by now, you don't know me very well!

I mentioned that case specifically because it illustrates the fallacy of IDI's claim about what "type" of parents would do this. God knows I'm not trying to blame the victims here, but if all you knew about the Van Dams and the Ramseys were their backgrounds and that they each had a dead daughter, who would YOU think was more likely to be guilty?

God forgive me for saying that.

And God forgive me for saying this, as well. It's also a good comparison as far as an intruder goes, which was my main point for bringing it up. In Danielle's case, her killer behaved the way the vast majority of child-killers do: he didn't hang around the house doing a whole mess of crazy s**t. He was in and out in a few minutes. He took her to a place where he felt secure, did his horrible deeds, then dumped her with no concern for the body at all.

And to that end, it helps to remember what I said about child-victimizers being like predatory animals and tending to target the weak. Danielle was a good victim in that regard. She was easy to get to because of how her family lived. (God forgive me.)

By contrast, from the standpoint of an intruder, JB would have been too difficult to gain access to. She was never left alone. She was not a latch-key kid. She was not starved for attention. She lived in a high-wealth, low-crime district in a big house that was, as far as an intruder knew, like a fortress. No intruder with any ounce of sense would go after her in her own damn house! Like the predators of the animal world, they would give up and chase easier prey.

And lastly, as you pointed out, Squishified, the Van Dams put aside their problems and cooperated to the fullest. Marc Klaas would be proud of them. (And was, last I knew.) My understanding is that the Van Dams were never even seriously considered as suspects.

Damn right the Van Dam case is a good one to compare with this one! It's the PERFECT one!

(The Dragon is breathing fire now!)
 
SuperDave. Motive for an intruder. With Sex and Money out of the frame what else could there be?

The only one that's really left to us, Sabot, is the one John Douglas (spits) suggested: that this was somebody killing JB for revenge.

Problem there is, as ST pointed out to Douglas, if that were the case, the body would not only have been mutilated much worse, but the killer would have posed it in a way where it would have maximum impact, not hide it away in the cellar.

She, by the way. But no problem. I am often thought of as He, although I don't know why.

Sorry, Sabot. That's one of the pitfalls of talking to people you can't see or hear. I didn't mean anything by it.
 
There WAS a sexual assault. Just because there was no semen doesn't mean there was no sexual assault. If you haven't read the autopsy report, you should. There was BLOOD in the vagina, as well as abrasions and bruising, a bruise on the labia, and evidence of her own blood having been wiped from her thighs and pubic area. Blood does not belong in or on the vagina of a 6-year old girl. IN addition, the hymen was eroded in a specific area, in a way which indicated repeated rubbing or pressure on the same spot on more than one occasion. At the autopsy, the findings of blood, abrasions and bruising were noted in the written report, but the coroner also had police witnessing the autopsy as well, and he told these officers (Detective Linda Arndt and
Sgt Trujillo) that he felt what he saw was evidence of penetration with a finger. THAT is plenty of proof of sexual assault.
There does not have to BE a motive in a murder, especially if it was unintended. In this case, I highly doubt there was an actual planned motive. I feel what happened was that she screamed from whatever penetrated her with enough force to cause her to bleed (a neighbor heard the scream) and she was suddenly bashed on the head to shut her up quickly. I do not think whoever did this meant to kill her. But a head bash like that would have rendered her instantly unconscious, maybe even comatose. She may even have appeared dead because she would have gone into shock, which would cause a person's breathing, heart rate, and body temperature to plummet. To an untrained person, she may have appeared dead.
As far as the garroting- there are two theories that I consider. One is that someone was using the garrote as part of a sexual bondage activity. The other is that, having thought they killed her, and with the head bash leaving NO exterior signs (no bruising, swelling or bleeding that could be seen, though the autopsy found all of this internally), they may have staged the strangulation simply to be able to have a visible apparent cause of death. Otherwise all you have is a dead little girl with no apparent reason, and the danger that the real reason (the head bash) would be discovered. Then they'd have some explaining to do.
No doubt about it, this case is complicated and a lot of the pieces of the puzzle don't seem to fit. But the hardest thing for many people to accept is that sometimes there is no "WHY". And sometimes the WHO is a parent or other loved one. That is the most difficult thing.

I think you and Sabot are both right, DD. Certainly, no one is denying that JB's genitals were injured, but the MOTIVE for doing so was most likely not sexual. By that I mean, it was not done for sexual gratification.
 
Do we know that Patsy wan't like the freaky moms on T&T?

Tessa2009, my understanding is that Patsy was extreme EVEN by those standards! It takes a lot to make the judges of those things flinch, but apparently Patsy managed to pull that off with that infamous "peacock" costume!

I've never watched the show, but have seen trailers to the episodes....I so wonder why this isn't considered CHILD ABUSE??? Poor kids...

If it isn't considered child abuse, it damn well OUGHT to be!
 

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