State vs Jason Lynn Young: weekend discussion 11-18 Feb 2012

[heidisams]

Right but then as a juror, you would want to know where is the "bite" mark? I think. CY said biting.

That made me pause, but I thought since she's a 2 yr old in daycare, biting would be something she dealt with probably often, if it was anything like my kids daycare experiences... I think it will depend on who is on that jury, as far as how the bite comment is interpreted. I'm not so sure if I would put that much weight into it, considering the source... I think when it comes to cy putting into words what she saw, I think the 2 words she chose (spanking and biting) were the words she could relate to when it comes to physical pain. I don't think strangled, bludgeoned, etc. are in her vocabulary or her life experiences...

 

[octobermoon]

I am betting that you will never want to look at another pair of Hush Puppies again in your life :giggle:

The testimony though was important.

I have these truly cool designer straight jackets (spelling is TM'd) and a private asylum in the caribbean so will give you one of these straight jackets and hope you enjoy it lol

BBM

:floorlaugh:

But seriously, why BH feels the need to present the testimony like she does...
makes me suspect she is not confident in her experts. Just saying. IMO



BBM Can I have a couple weeks to lose some lbs? and will there be umbrella drinks?

 

[~n/t~]

Today we have 24/7 cable news coverage of criminal trials, high profile cases, even entire networks devoted to these cases. We also have tv shows, movies, books about forensic, csi, etc. IMO, this is changing the expectations of many jurors when it comes to evidence. Gone are the days of circumstantial evidence, common sense, etc. The definition of reasonable doubt is changing. IMO. I think a lot of this is because we see defense attorney after defense attorney on these shows telling us what we can and can't do. We can't speculate. We have to have hard core facts! They want us to think we can't make an inference! That it's not our job to use these inferences (aka speculations) to put the pieces together with, that's the prosecutions job to do.... They tell us we shouldn't make any decision based on prior bad acts...just because someone did this doesn't mean they did that. We have to ignore that and stick with the facts. They tell us that everybody grieves different, therefore ANYTHING goes... we should throw out common sense and believe that some people will party their a$$e$ off after their child/spouse dies!!! And there are some people who buy all this bs. Not all, but sadly many are influenced by this and they do sometimes find their way to those jury seats...

Not only defense attornies. I see forensic experts with differing opinions. That is the beauty of the court system. The jury has to decide based on facts not speculations and assumptions. I said "I think" he did it. Do I convict him based on what I think? Why have a trial then? Why not throw all these people in prison because we assume they did it?

One other point, jurors are not discussing this case as we are. They have no access to a lot of the information we have so whatever verdict is reached, it will be done during deliberations when all evidence is presented. I would hate to think a juror at this point in time has already "convicted" JY based on what was presented. They still have some time to go and the other side hasn't presented its case yet. That's our judicial system. Like it or not.

 

[Allusonz]

BBM

:floorlaugh:

But seriously, why BH feels the need to present the testimony like she does...
makes me suspect she is not confident in her experts. Just saying. IMO



BBM Can I have a couple weeks to lose some lbs? and will there be umbrella drinks?

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

Oh man wait till you see the rubber private jet. Of course you may it is an asylum after all. Not many allowed to leave tooooooo soon lol

I agree. I am seeing a PT throwing everything they have in the hopes of a conviction simply for the fact that the evidence is weak. I believe that is why it is not being layed out in a cohesive manner. JMO

 

[~n/t~]

That made me pause, but I thought since she's a 2 yr old in daycare, biting would be something she dealt with probably often, if it was anything like my kids daycare experiences... I think it will depend on who is on that jury, as far as how the bite comment is interpreted. I'm not so sure if I would put that much weight into it, considering the source... I think when it comes to cy putting into words what she saw, I think the 2 words she chose (spanking and biting) were the words she could relate to when it comes to physical pain. I don't think strangled, bludgeoned, etc. are in her vocabulary or her life experiences...

But see, posters are saying they should interpret the chair as being a weapon that was used like a baseball bat. (No weapon was retrieved) Now if one assumes CY was hitting the mommy doll with a chair because the murderer had a weapon, why would they not ask well, she also said mommy had boo boos because she was punished for biting. So where are the bite marks? Also, as a juror if the assumption is the "grandma" doll is JY, I would want to see what the other doll looked like. If the other doll was shorter, dark hair and looked nothing like daddy, then it may score points. But if the defense keeps hammering in that it was a "woman" doll, it may not go over so well with some jurors. Someone like me who thinks JY may have had an accomplice or hired someone to commit this crime may question why out of 3 dolls she picked the mommy doll and another woman doll and not the male doll?

That's why I think this testimony could go either way for now. We'll have to wait and see what happens on Monday.

 

[Boodles]

That made me pause, but I thought since she's a 2 yr old in daycare, biting would be something she dealt with probably often, if it was anything like my kids daycare experiences... I think it will depend on who is on that jury, as far as how the bite comment is interpreted. I'm not so sure if I would put that much weight into it, considering the source... I think when it comes to cy putting into words what she saw, I think the 2 words she chose (spanking and biting) were the words she could relate to when it comes to physical pain. I don't think strangled, bludgeoned, etc. are in her vocabulary or her life experiences...

To me, the point is that Cassidy, playing alone, unprompted, uninfluenced, picked up some items and showed one doll hitting another with a weapon and referred to the one doll as mommy.

This isn't literal testimony from Cassidy. She's acting out, not responding to a request to demonstrate what happened that night. It's what was manifested in her play a few days after her mother's murder from her mind, memory, imagination.

So whether the 'assailant' doll was a male or not doesn't matter to me. She wasn't selecting from a vast sample of dolls at the behest of an interrogator. It's that she chose to *play* with a doll hitting mommy with a weapon that, to me, is the significant part of the evidence. That, and the fact that she, Cassidy, was left alive at the scene.

The 'biting' and 'spanking' words? IMO, I don't know that they mean that much. Remember, she was a 2 1/2 year old playing (I know, I hate that word in this context). Her play world was all within her own little frame of reference.

 

[Just the Fax]

The thing is, if she would of used the doctor doll, wouldn't everyone be saying, of course she used that one, it's the 'male' doll?

I don't know about "everyone" ?
It was my understanding there were 3 lifelike figures.

She picked the obvious mommy (down to the dark ponytail).
The tall generic looking figure with blonde, short hair - dressed in a masculine purple suit vs a figure that is an obvious doctor (yes assumption).

I doubt she chose the purple figure to represent a dangerous intruder that "spanked" her mommy for doing something that required punishment.
Sounds like she was acting out a parent disciplining for bad behavior

 

[otto]

But see, posters are saying they should interpret the chair as being a weapon that was used like a baseball bat. (No weapon was retrieved) Now if one assumes CY was hitting the mommy doll with a chair because the murderer had a weapon, why would they not ask well, she also said mommy had boo boos because she was punished for biting. So where are the bite marks? Also, as a juror if the assumption is the "grandma" doll is JY, I would want to see what the other doll looked like. If the other doll was shorter, dark hair and looked nothing like daddy, then it may score points. But if the defense keeps hammering in that it was a "woman" doll, it may not go over so well with some jurors. Someone like me who thinks JY may have had an accomplice or hired someone to commit this crime may question why out of 3 dolls she picked the mommy doll and another woman doll and not the male doll?

That's why I think this testimony could go either way for now. We'll have to wait and see what happens on Monday.

The question is whether a 2.5 year old clearly distinguishes between a male doll and a female doll ... and I'm not convinced that they do. Regarding the bite, I suspect that the child had some experience where she witnessed another child being spanked for biting ... could have been a friend, might be from daycare ... hard to say ... but I think she had some personal experience where biting resulted in spanking. I think she made that leap on her own.

2-3 years
At this age, young children are developing “gender identity.” This means that they begin to label themselves and others as male or female. They can use words to label friends, family, and themselves as a boy or a girl.

3-4 years
Children at this age begin to use “gender typing.” They like putting things in categories, and gender is one way to do that. For example, a three-year-old child may think that trucks are male toys, because boys usually play with trucks.

4-6 years
Children at this age begin to understand and use “gender scripts.” This is another way to put things in categories. Instead of grouping things, they put events or activities in groups related to gender. For example, a five-year-old child may think that a person putting on make-up has to be a female. That child may also think that only males lift weights, so everyone lifting weights must be a male.

6-7 years
Before this age, boys might think that they will grow up to be women. Girls might think they will be daddies when they are older. By age 6 or 7 though, most children understand and believe that a person’s gender is constant. They know it will not change throughout life. Most children this age also know that a man is still a man, even if he dresses like a woman.

http://www.ces.purdue.edu/providerparent/child growth-development/AgesStages.htm

The below link, starting pg 18, also suggests that child must be between 6-10 before they consistently correctly identify representations of gender.

http://infantlab.fiu.edu/Articles/Wild et al JECH 2000.pdf

 

[Mama-cita]

Day cares use time out for discipline, as do many parents. CY may have been given time out, but if she had developed a biting habit (for which she was at the PRIME age), she may have received a little swat or spank as a deterrent. For that her frame of reference may be "when people bite, they get spanked." My sister in law had an "unusual" method of potty-training. She put her daughter in underpants and told her she would get spanked if she messed the carpet. Warped, I know. I had a child the same age and mine was potty training and asked to go "pee pee in the potty." To which my niece replied, "Oh, he is going pee pee in the potty? Now he don't have to get spanked!" Kids KNOW what spankings are associated with. IMO, CY had experience with spanking in the context of biting people (which is a habit to which many children that age are prone). So whether or not Michelle BIT her attacker has nothing to do with anything CY said; if CY only knows spanking as punishment for biting, she would associate the "spankings" with "biting." Also, the choice of words definitely points to daddy dearest. In day care, they will tell children who strike one another "Don't hit." When strangers "strike" us it is not referred to as a spank, but a hit. So the use of spanking, which she would associate with what a "parent" does is quite telling indeed...

ETA: Even if Michelle did bite to try and protect herself (I don't believe she had the chance; the coward totally ambushed her), if the attacker was wearing leather gloves and a heavy pullover, what good would that have done??

 

[dr dona]

I haven't followed this case at all till now. Just listened to the 911 tape and there is no question in my mind that CY said --Daddy did it. In fact, I was shocked that this statement was so clear. I'm a Pediatrician and focus alot on speech and language----I have to say that I understood alot of what CY was saying. She had very high verbal ability for her age!!! I would have isolated her voice pattern and gotten a betterlisten----Excited utterance. I did have a 2yr 4 mo child testify before a judge in a sexual abuse case. She was able to tell our ultra Right wing conservative judge that Denny " put his dick in her mouth--it was hard and white stuff came out. She had alot of other things to say and used words that I don't even use....Judge almost stroked out!!!!! The child';s mom disappeared and from what she said---Denny killed her. Denny went to prison but mom has never been found. Child got adopted by a childless couple but did have super issues as a teen!!!!!

 

[Mama-cita]

I haven't followed this case at all till now. Just listened to the 911 tape and there is no question in my mind that CY said --Daddy did it. In fact, I was shocked that this statement was so clear. I'm a Pediatrician and focus alot on speech and language----I have to say that I understood alot of what CY was saying. She had very high verbal ability for her age!!! I would have isolated her voice pattern and gotten a betterlisten----Excited utterance.

Respectfully snipped by me...
THANK YOU Dr Dona! You have confirmed what the majority of posters also feel. It's nice to feel valildated by an "expert!" Can we convince you to go to NC and get this admitted ito evidence lease:lease:
LOL!!

 

[Boodles]

dr dona, with all due respect, that was wayyyy too much info IMO, and I'm not a prude. C'mon...

 

[Just the Fax]

dr donna, wonder if a child psychology expert can testify now about what they think CY was doing with the dolls and the significance....based on their professional opinion?
Guess that is a stretch since they did not witness the behavior.

 

[Boodles]

The utterance was cut by the court for the recording and transcript for a reason.
If she only said "Daddy diiiiii", it would have been published to the jury that way. Certainly no controversy with that utterance.

What reason? I really do not understand.

And I realize there was chaos at that house that afternoon. But Cassidy was found in the house, and no one, no detective or officer thought to elicit info from the child? How could they have missed that? I know it would take time to get a child psychologist out there, but why not let the child answer the question, "what happened?" "was someone here?" "who was here" "who hurt mommy?" Why didn't they try to find out from Cassidy what happened?

I could scream when I listen to that dispatcher interrupting telling Meredith to "calm down" - frankly, Meredith was handling it very well considering. She was not hysterical acting at all.

With that said, I also remember that Meredith said she felt like she was going to panic, so maybe the dispatcher interrupting her was helping her to remain calm. I know the dispatcher meant well and was just doing his job...but the interruptions during those crucial child utterances are so unfortunate.

And again, why didn't they check the dog for fibers, blood, etc.?

 

[gracielee]

The only doctor doll that comes in scrubs I can find that is in that approximate size range from 2006 is a Ken doll, doctor doll and it has very long curly blonde hair. There are earlier dolls with brown hair (mostly from the mid 1990s) that have the plastic hair and would not be similar to JY at all. They almost have the appearance of not being caucasian. I am basing my search on what the lady said: Scrubs, doctor, male, doll. Assuming it's somewhere in the 2002-2006 range time-wise.

Anything else I've come across seems to be a little too cartoony or stuffed animal like.

Look on eBay, toys. I put in doll house figures, or loving family figures, or fisher price doll house figures, etc. You can pull up lots with the sorts of figures being used here. They are nowhere near as big as Barbie or Ken dolls. They range in size probably from about 4 or 5 inches to 7 to 8 inches tall. They are special little figures kids that age love. I have a few here at my house, and my daughter with my granddaughter has a whole bunch of them. They come with the doll houses, they come with little camper sets, and there are sets of medical personnel, etc. I've purchased a few lots of action figures on eBay for my grandchildren.

 

[Just the Fax]

What reason? I really do not understand.

And I realize there was chaos at that house that afternoon. But Cassidy was found in the house, and no one, no detective or officer thought to elicit info from the child? How could they have missed that? I know it would take time to get a child psychologist out there, but why not let the child answer the question, "what happened?" "was someone here?" "who was here" "who hurt mommy?" Why didn't they try to find out from Cassidy what happened?

I could scream when I listen to that dispatcher interrupting telling Meredith to "calm down" - frankly, Meredith was handling it very well considering. She was not hysterical acting at all.

With that said, I also remember that Meredith said she felt like she was going to panic, so maybe the dispatcher interrupting her was helping her to remain calm. I know the dispatcher meant well and was just doing his job...but the interruptions during those crucial child utterances are so unfortunate.

And again, why didn't they check the dog for fibers, blood, etc.?

No reason given. I assume the judge thought it was too prejudicial since MF could not acknowledge and confirm the context, as she could later when CY was talking about "daddy".

 

[gracielee]

The question is whether a 2.5 year old clearly distinguishes between a male doll and a female doll ... and I'm not convinced that they do. Regarding the bite, I suspect that the child had some experience where she witnessed another child being spanked for biting ... could have been a friend, might be from daycare ... hard to say ... but I think she had some personal experience where biting resulted in spanking. I think she made that leap on her own.

2-3 years
At this age, young children are developing “gender identity.” This means that they begin to label themselves and others as male or female. They can use words to label friends, family, and themselves as a boy or a girl.

3-4 years
Children at this age begin to use “gender typing.” They like putting things in categories, and gender is one way to do that. For example, a three-year-old child may think that trucks are male toys, because boys usually play with trucks.

4-6 years
Children at this age begin to understand and use “gender scripts.” This is another way to put things in categories. Instead of grouping things, they put events or activities in groups related to gender. For example, a five-year-old child may think that a person putting on make-up has to be a female. That child may also think that only males lift weights, so everyone lifting weights must be a male.

6-7 years
Before this age, boys might think that they will grow up to be women. Girls might think they will be daddies when they are older. By age 6 or 7 though, most children understand and believe that a person’s gender is constant. They know it will not change throughout life. Most children this age also know that a man is still a man, even if he dresses like a woman.

http://www.ces.purdue.edu/providerparent/child growth-development/AgesStages.htm

The below link, starting pg 18, also suggests that child must be between 6-10 before they consistently correctly identify representations of gender.

http://infantlab.fiu.edu/Articles/Wild et al JECH 2000.pdf

When my youngest daughter was around 3 or 4, her best friend was the little boy next door, who was a year older than her. They were the only two kids left in the neighborhood during the daytime. All the other kids were in school. They played together everyday. I usually made them lunch so they could eat outside on our front porch. They were together constantly. And I used to chuckle, listening to them play. Some days they would play house, and I'd hear them 'reverse roles'. Their tiny little voices, 'okay now you be da momma & I'll be da daddy', back and forth. I thought it was so cute, I'd describe it to my husband when he got home from work. To them, male/female was interchangeable. Sometimes my daughter was the 'daddy' and Johnny was 'da momma', and back and forth.

 

[Boodles]

The 911 played in court cut out the obvious "daddy did it"

Listen, 3/4 to the end (5:01)when the phone is being transferred to the sheriff office....listen for the telephone rings...."Daddy did it"...."ok"
MF acknowledged, but she was in shock and it did not register...too bad.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/audio/1119462/

Oh boy, I just heard the "daddy did it" during the transfer to the sheriff. During the first "daddy" statement. she was cut off. But then I heard her ask if she could get a washcloth.

Why they didn't admit this into evidence???

 

[Boodles]

No reason given. I assume the judge thought it was too prejudicial since MF could not acknowledge and confirm the context, as she could later when CY was talking about "daddy".

JTF, was there a ruling denying its admission?

 

[Mama-cita]

After what happened at the daycare, CY should have been evaluated by a trained forensic child psychologist. My guess is that it would have to have been consented to and JLY and MamaPat weren't about to green light something like that...