New Details of Josh's Brainwashing Techniques

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ThoughtFox said:
Didn't he know that the sleeping bags were mentioned in the report? That gave him away, right?

I think it's simple - he was an extremist. He didn't want the Cox's to have the boys and he didn't want to be on the run with the kids either. To his warped mind the only way out was "scorched earth" - literally.

Plus for a Drama King like him, it was a blaze of glory in the face of society.

Sure, it's bizarre but everything about JP was bizarre.

:cow: JMOO
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I absolutely agree JP was a a Drama Queen. The whole situation of power and control was bizarre and extreme.
 
unique_astrology said:
How was Susan moved? Could it be she was wounded, dying, but not yet dead when moved? Would dogs pick up their scents if she had only been dead for a few hours?
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I understand that the body starts dropping the death scent immediately upon death. If the dogs didn't pick that up from the van, that means Susan wasn't in the van after death. I think she was alive and out of it in the back of the van. I don't think Josh was strong enough to pick her up and carry her anyway. (Not that she was especially heavy, more that he was exceptionally wimpy.) I think he depended on her to be able to walk away from the car on her own two feet, supported by him. I think he hatcheted her the way he did the boys and dumped her over into a ravine or mine, and walked away.
 
gwenabob said:
From the story:

"A incident report was filed on Aug. 20, 2010, when Charlie apparently demonstrated to others at day care how to kill and bury a bear, the documents state. He said he’d learned the information from TV.

"You dig a hole, put the bear in the hole, throw rocks on the bear, cover the hole, and then you plant a tree so no one will know where you buried the bear," Charlie said, according to documents. "Then you plant raspberry bushes over the bear because it makes the best-tasting raspberries."

Hmmm. Do the Powells have any raspberry bushes on their property?
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More likely a pet burial. If you bury a deceased pet, you are probably not going to tell them what really happens when something dies. And you don't want them digging it up later to find out.
 
dovebar said:
Exploring this idea, is SP did not want to be seen on so many security cameras at airports, does it seem he could have put the gasoline cans found in the storage unit into an SUV and driven to Utah without stopping for gas?

This would give him a 4-wheel drive vehicle for disposal of Susan as well as gasoline to burn a body. He could even have hauled a tree in a pot from his backyard or from a nursery to plant over her body.

Later, Josh could go shopping for "camping supplies" in Washington and get sleeping bags and a hatchet. Maybe he planned to kill the social worker and get away with the boys but something changed his mind. Suicide by fire is extremely rare, occurring in at most 1% of cases. Where did he get this idea?
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BBM

It is a rare form of suicide but it is the one that is used by people protesting what they perceive as unfair conditions.

For example, Mohamed Bouazizi's self-immolation in 2010 to protest police harassment was what triggered the Jasmine Revolution in Tunisia. Which went on to trigger the Arab Spring.

In the past few years, many Buddhist monks and nuns in Tibet have self-immolated in protest of conditions under Chinese rule. The Chinese authorities are trying to keep this a secret and it is extremely difficult for journalists to get into the area. It is clear that these self-immolations are causing unease to the Chinese government.

In Afghanistan, many women have self-immolated over the past 20 years due to stress and repressive conditions. It is difficult, however, to differentiate which women chose to self-immolate from those whose husbands or other family members chose to burn them as a form of punishment or revenge.

I have no idea if any of this is what Josh Powell had in mind but as soon as I read about what had happened, that is what flashed into my mind.
 
NocturnalLady said:
I agree with your reading of the reports. It just makes me wonder all the more why the visits were allowed to continue. Didn't the therapist continue to note that Josh was unable to stop his inappropriate ranting - even right there in front of her where he must have known it would be reported. It was also reported that one of the children (I forget which) had stated on that last day that he didn't want to go see his father but the Coxes convinced him to go because they were afraid they would get in trouble with the court. Why weren't they confident that if the children said no then that would be backed up by the court? I'm not coming down on them - I think that there is someone somewhere who should have made them aware of the children's rights as outlined by this report. Maybe their lawyer??
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The therapist's report was based, as I understand it, on a single assessment visit rather than on ongoing therapy.

As distasteful as it sounds, parents do still have First Amendment rights. A parent can teach their child that Mormons, Jews, Islam or any non-Abrahamic religion are wrong, evil and trying to take over the world. Parents can teach their children white supremacy and involve them in white supremacist events (for example, Lynx and Lamb Gaede who made up the band Prussian Blue).

So just voicing distasteful views is not enough to get custody taken away; the government agency with jurisdiction has to show that the expression of those views is harming the children. For instance, if a white supremacist goes on intense rants with violent hand motions, etc, that cause their children to cry in fear, then that's legitimate grounds for requiring the parent to modify their behaviour.

As for Charlie and Braden not wanting to go see Josh that day...

The problem is that it's pretty common for kids in shared custody arrangements to say they don't want to visit the other parent (or guardian or whatever)... BOTH ways! For instance, they start out at Dad's place saying they don't want to go visit Mom and then after they've been at Mom's place for awhile, they say they don't want to go back to Dad's place.

Normally, it just means that kids prefer to keep having fun where they are, rather than stop the activity in one place and start a different activity in a different place. No big deal.

So it takes more than just some "I don't wanna go today" on the part of the children to raise a red flag. The children have to show abnormal levels of stress or protest and it just doesn't sound like that was the case with Charlie and Braden.

According to this article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio.../09/gIQA88LF2Q_story.html?tid=pm_national_pop

Griffin-Hall said Charlie and Braden loved being with their father.

“One of them said what he wanted to do was go home and live with his daddy,” she told ABC, adding that the boys would “light up” during visits with Josh Powell.
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So I think the reluctance to leave the Coxes's house was probably viewed as the normal sort of transitory reluctance expressed by many, many children.

Obviously that reluctance didn't last for long or the CW would not have had the impression that the boys were looking forward to their visits with JP.
 
passionflower said:
Post 325
The brother that wears diapers and runs around unclothed can't be to disabled,
because he voted.
The other brother left the house and moved out after he voted in 2010.
Did he marry or just leave?
Wasn't he a politician?
Could JP/SP get 'under the wire of LE' through political friends and that SP worked in a prison? Just wondering out loud.
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BBM

Since when are disabled people disbarred from voting? Assuming they have no disqualifiers (like a felony conviction or being underage), they have the same rights to vote every other adult in this country.

People with Alzheimers are allowed to vote. People who are in locked psychiatric facilities are allowed to vote.

Disenfranchisement is such a serious matter that it takes a lot more than mental illness or mental disability to take someone's vote away.
 
Sulamith said:
Maybe searchers could search for Susan at raspberry fields in Utah. Maybe the kids ate a lot of raspberries but I think it is kind of different for a young child to know what a raspberry is. A apple, or banana, but a raspberry? I don't remember buying raspberries when my kids were young. Maybe the raspberry bush is a clue??
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I think it's totally normal for small children to know what raspberries are. There were raspberry bushes in the backyard of the house I grew up in, and my brother and I picked them and ate them from the time we were old enough to toddle around the backyard. I've seen many places in Utah where raspberries grow in the back yard. I think my parents have raspberries in their back yard in Utah right now, as do some of their neighbors. Mormons like to be self sufficient, and many have gardens, fruit trees, grape vines, raspberry bushes, strawberries, rhubarb, all kinds of things growing in their back yards. We already knew that Susan grew a lot of the food her family ate, so it's not that much of a stretch to think she may have grown raspberries. They aren't just something you buy at the store. They grow very well in cooler climates, and a lot of people have them. But as far as buying them at the store goes, I've purchased and eaten raspberries my whole adult life, so my children certainly all knew what they were at a very young age. Maybe it's just a cultural difference? Susan Cox and I both grew up in a culture that commonly puts raspberries in Jello, with whipped cream on top, and calls it a side dish. :wink:
 
GrainneDhu said:
BBM

Since when are disabled people disbarred from voting? Assuming they have no disqualifiers (like a felony conviction or being underage), they have the same rights to vote every other adult in this country.

People with Alzheimers are allowed to vote. People who are in locked psychiatric facilities are allowed to vote.

Disenfranchisement is such a serious matter that it takes a lot more than mental illness or mental disability to take someone's vote away.
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ITA. People with mental illnesses are not forbidden to vote.
 
GrainneDhu said:
...As for Charlie and Braden not wanting to go see Josh that day...

The problem is that it's pretty common for kids in shared custody arrangements to say they don't want to visit the other parent (or guardian or whatever)... BOTH ways! For instance, they start out at Dad's place saying they don't want to go visit Mom and then after they've been at Mom's place for awhile, they say they don't want to go back to Dad's place.

Normally, it just means that kids prefer to keep having fun where they are, rather than stop the activity in one place and start a different activity in a different place. No big deal.

So it takes more than just some "I don't wanna go today" on the part of the children to raise a red flag. The children have to show abnormal levels of stress or protest and it just doesn't sound like that was the case with Charlie and Braden.

According to this article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio.../09/gIQA88LF2Q_story.html?tid=pm_national_pop



So I think the reluctance to leave the Coxes's house was probably viewed as the normal sort of transitory reluctance expressed by many, many children.

Obviously that reluctance didn't last for long or the CW would not have had the impression that the boys were looking forward to their visits with JP.
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Along those same lines, children in such situations can sometimes feel guilty or as if they are betraying one parent by having fun with the other. I remember feeling that way between my parents and would tell my Mom that I didn't want to visit my Dad because in my 10 year-old reasoning I thought it might make her feel less lonely when I was at my Dad's and vice versa. Both would tell me that they would miss me while I was gone, and that made me feel guilty. My parents never intentionally tried to make me feel that way.

However, Josh was very manipulative and controlling, and it sounds as if he played upon his children's feelings more often than not. There are many possible reasons why the boys may not have wanted to visit their Dad and sadly we will never know exactly why. I prefer to think that it wasn't out of fear - it is more comforting for me that way I guess.
 
Talison said:
I think it's totally normal for small children to know what raspberries are. There were raspberry bushes in the backyard of the house I grew up in, and my brother and I picked them and ate them from the time we were old enough to toddle around the backyard. I've seen many places in Utah where raspberries grow in the back yard. I think my parents have raspberries in their back yard in Utah right now, as do some of their neighbors. Mormons like to be self sufficient, and many have gardens, fruit trees, grape vines, raspberry bushes, strawberries, rhubarb, all kinds of things growing in their back yards. We already knew that Susan grew a lot of the food her family ate, so it's not that much of a stretch to think she may have grown raspberries. They aren't just something you buy at the store. They grow very well in cooler climates, and a lot of people have them. But as far as buying them at the store goes, I've purchased and eaten raspberries my whole adult life, so my children certainly all knew what they were at a very young age. Maybe it's just a cultural difference? Susan Cox and I both grew up in a culture that commonly puts raspberries in Jello, with whipped cream on top, and calls it a side dish. :wink:
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In the South we mostly have blackberries, but lots of people grow a blackberry-raspberry hybrid (like big blackberries with without thorns). The wild vines are both a blessing and a weed.

I grew up eating wild blackberries in cobblers or just off the vine. I used to show my kids how to pick them along the fence. My husband grew up picking raspberries and blueberries on a farm. I think kids could certainly know about raspberries and how they grow.

My husband's cousin in Michigan has huge raspberry canes growing around his house and has to trim them back or they'd take over the place.
 
unique_astrology said:
The Sun set just before 5 pm in SLC that day. Don't know if snow had started or was moving in but it was most likely overcast, so no sunshine even before the Sun set....
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I apologize for asking something that has probably been answered on one thread or another several times before.

But do they have independent confirmation of the sledding trip and its times other than JP's own story? I ask because taking a 2- and 4-year-old sledding after dark is just an unlikely to me as taking them camping at 12:30 a.m.
 
hollyblue said:
Cadaver dogs did not hit on the van.
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Do cadaver dogs hit on a body the instant it dies? Or does some time have to pass between death and the change in scent?
 
I am truely sorry, I thought that the mentally disabled were not encouraged to vote.
My BIL was 48 when he died but only 8 years old mentally, he never voted.
He lived in a group home, dressed nice, well mannered and even cooked, but never voted or drove a car.
 
Nova said:
I apologize for asking something that has probably been answered on one thread or another several times before.

But do they have independent confirmation of the sledding trip and its times other than JP's own story? I ask because taking a 2- and 4-year-old sledding after dark is just an unlikely to me as taking them camping at 12:30 a.m.
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I am confused also. I don't remember any other person saying about it but Josh.
Now the neighbor lady that crocheted with Susan said that Josh told her he was taking the boys sledding.
But IIRC we are relying on HIS story and timeline.
 
passionflower said:
I am confused also. I don't remember any other person saying about it but Josh.
Now the neighbor lady that crocheted with Susan said that Josh told her he was taking the boys sledding.
But IIRC we are relying on HIS story and timeline.
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That is my impression, too, but I realized I'd never actually asked. Unless there's some confirmation by reliable witnesses, I think I'll assume the sledding story was just something JP invented to get the friend out of the house and that we don't actually know where (or even if) he went.

The same applies to the 12:30 p.m. camping time. I don't believe that was witnessed by anyone either, and it's such an odd story. Is it true? Was JP's view so skewed he was a really bad liar? Or is that the time the van actually left and JP didn't want to risk a witness contradicting his "alibi"?
 
Nova said:
That is my impression, too, but I realized I'd never actually asked. Unless there's some confirmation by reliable witnesses, I think I'll assume the sledding story was just something JP invented to get the friend out of the house and that we don't actually know where (or even if) he went.

The same applies to the 12:30 p.m. camping time. I don't believe that was witnessed by anyone either, and it's such an odd story. Is it true? Was JP's view so skewed he was a really bad liar? Or is that the time the van actually left and JP didn't want to risk a witness contradicting his "alibi"?
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IIRC the car alarm to the van went off and a neighbor saw jp leave at midnight........
 
gwenabob said:
I understand that the body starts dropping the death scent immediately upon death. If the dogs didn't pick that up from the van, that means Susan wasn't in the van after death. I think she was alive and out of it in the back of the van. I don't think Josh was strong enough to pick her up and carry her anyway. (Not that she was especially heavy, more that he was exceptionally wimpy.) I think he depended on her to be able to walk away from the car on her own two feet, supported by him. I think he hatcheted her the way he did the boys and dumped her over into a ravine or mine, and walked away.
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That scenario also fits with the report that one of the boys said Mommy and Daddy went for a walk.
 
passionflower said:
IIRC the car alarm to the van went off and a neighbor saw jp leave at midnight........
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I know a neighbor reported hearing the car alarm go off around 11:30pm, but was there also a neighbor who saw the van leave?
 
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