Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION**

[sarx]

I know this question is not directed at me, just wanted to mention something (which maybe Oriah or Sarx could expand on). Would the HRD dog only hit on a scent SPECIFICALLY from Lisa? As in, if for some reason that hit was from decomposing blood, would it necesarliy be Lisa's blood, or could it be blood from anyone? I know that scent dogs can distinguish between the scent of a baby, elderly person, etc., but can they get that specific as far as a blood or decomp scent? As in, would MY blood or decomp have a different smell from someone else's, or is that too exact?
Hope that makes sense.

It makes perfect sense, and the answer is yes, each person has their own scent (which is how trailing dogs work), DNA has its own unique smell so to speak. This however is an EXTREMELY specialized line of work and there are very few dogs out there that have been trained for this. Only those with the biggest resources have this.... But, they do exist.

 

[cityslick]

i am perplexed why that question is so hard to understand so i give up lol... i do thank you for all info provided and the time to attempt to answer our questions.


one thing that stands out: you say "false positives all the time"... but brad garrett (FBI) says cadaver dogs (and i'm assuming he means the FBI cadaver dogs that were used in the bradwin home) = 90%+ accuracy rates, so what are we supposed to believe? lol

regardless,

no cases found to match criteria.

i still believe the dog.

(and brad garrett)

:twocents:

It's a fact that it was an FBI cadaver dog? I thought we didn't know what type of training the dog had?

 

[iamnotagolem]

I dont want to ask this question but after reading another thread I feel compelled.

If Lisa was placed in say a 5 gallon bucket that had paint thinner, paint, draino, gasoline, bleach etc and the container was then sealed and put in a vehicle would a dog hit on the car? Or would the liquid absorb the decomp smell? Or would specific liquids speed up decomp and make it more likely to be hit on?

Sorry to have to ask this. It's so disturbing.

 

[Truthwillsetufree]

Peeps, I think ya'll are getting kind of confused by basics here. Or maybe I am just being really confusing? I apologize if so.

Everything depends on what the dog is trained to be scent discriminatory of.

A dog trained in HRD singularly is not put to work on anything except HR scent. A tracking or trailing dog is a dog that is put to work on 'live' scents, and that is typically a specific individuals scent.

Some dogs are cross trained to distinguish between live and HR scent. They are trained to alert to each in a different way.

Some HRD dogs are trained to scent discriminate individual HR scent, but they are not common- and by that I mean, there are just not a lot of them out there.

We have no idea what dogs were used in Lisa's case.

I don't know how to help explain further. I am scratching my head here- because again- working dog alerts are just one piece of an investigation. If you're a narcotics detective with a narc K9, and you stop a vehicle and have your dog search it-and it alerts on the trunk- you don't just assume there are narcotics in there- you open the trunk and look. If you don't see anything and the dog is still alerting...you take samples to be examined.
If you're a fire investigator and you have a dog trained in accelerant detection and you visit the scene of a fire, where your dog alerts- you take samples to test for accelerants. HRD dogs are no different than this, because it is all about what the dog has been trained to detect- and ignore.

Excellent explanation! Thank You!

 

[Oriah]

Let's say a specific dog - Fido - is trained to alert to HR. Once he does, can Fido (if properly trained) then be commanded to check for and alert to specific components of decomp - as in specific, scientific components of decomp that, as a whole, indicate human remains (not person-specific). Perhaps to distinguish between older/fresher blood, between blood and other bodily fluids, etc.

I guess I'm trying to ask whether a single dog that makes a general alert for HR can be further directed to look for more specific components of decomp (if such a thing even exists), or if there are some dogs trained to alert to decomp in general and some who are trained to alert only to certain specific, scientific components of HR scent.

Thank you for trying to help me!

I think I understand what you're asking. Do you mean discriminate between the age of a scent?

 

[Oriah]

I dont want to ask this question but after reading another thread I feel compelled.

If Lisa was placed in say a 5 gallon bucket that had paint thinner, paint, draino, gasoline, bleach etc and the container was then sealed and put in a vehicle would a dog hit on the car? Or would the liquid absorb the decomp smell? Or would specific liquids speed up decomp and make it more likely to be hit on?

Sorry to have to ask this. It's so disturbing.

Certain types of liquids and other chemicals can adversely impact an HRD dogs ability to give a positive alert- but certain chemicals don't. In my opinion, it would be more likely that the containment method itself would adversely impact, because physical barriers typically present more of a problem to dogs who have been trained in HR.
Other types of dogs may be called in if a particular chemical is suspected in a death investigation and an HR alert is unclear.

 

[Oriah]

Yeah, I know of an instance where this happened, I was on it... There are 1,000's of cases that dogs work that are NOT reported by the media and aren't here on WS, so I'm quite certain there are others. Or, maybe our team was the only one in history to have that kind of epic fail, lol.

Nope, you aren't the only ones.
And that's what makes working dogs, human. Kwim?

 

[Melon]

I registered just to be able to ask a question here and I can't seem to figure what exactly I want to ask or how to phrase it.

If a body BL's size were put into a trash bag and made it to the landfill would it be an almost impossible task to use HRD dogs to find her? It seems that the cacophony of scent and the vastness of all of that would impede a search. Would that be the holy grail of success to find a body/remains in such a scent rich environment?

 

[Oriah]

I registered just to be able to ask a question here and I can't seem to figure what exactly I want to ask or how to phrase it.

If a body BL's size were put into a trash bag and made it to the landfill would it be an almost impossible task to use HRD dogs to find her? It seems that the cacophony of scent and the vastness of all of that would impede a search. Would that be the holy grail of success to find a body/remains in such a scent rich environment?[/quote]

BBM:
Unfortunately, yes.
And I don't mean that because HRD dogs cannot isolate scent. It would take a specifically trained dog, a very close radius being worked, the conditions of the landfill (what has been dumped, and when) a lot of things.
Landfill searches are often better accomplished by humans.

 

[nursebeeme]

PLEASE THANK THIS POST BEFORE POSTING

The Lisa Irwin forum appears to be made up of cliques. You know, the type you have in high school before you begin to understand that there are a lot of interesting people and places in the world and your fear of such limits the personal boundaries you set for yourself. The disrespect between the two cliques is tiresome.


That being said, we need another review of the rules (which is really just a curtesy as everyone should know them or how to find and read them by now): This is NOT hard. Post YOUR thoughts, theories and interpretations (easy enough right?). Read the thoughts of others (not hard). Respond to those that may be of a like mind (okay, that should work). If you disagree with another poster and cannot post nicely, MOVE PAST THEIR POST (how hard is that?) If another poster gets under your skin, PUT THEM ON IGNORE (only takes about a minute). If you must refute their post - then use a link and state the fact as YOU see it (you all know this case, it can't be that hard). THEN DROP IT! That's it. See, not hard. If a post offends you, ALERT it, DO NOT RESPOND TO IT, and MOVE ON. It is okay to disagree, but it is NOT OKAY to attack or make fun of others. AND THE SNARK...well, that needs to just STOP.



It is our hope this gets the message across. There are many good posters here and no matter what opinion we may hold on who we feel is responsible we all are here for Lisa Irwin and want her to come home safely and soon.

Thanks so much,

The Lisa Irwin forum moderators

 

[Jacie Estes]

IIRC Soon after Lisa went missing, there was a no-fly zone and ground access was restricted while search dogs were employing a new 'technique' that LE did not want to reveal, in an area near Lister. Has it ever been ascertained what this new technique was and if there were any tangible results from the search?

TIA

 

[marlame]

What is concerning to me is that the dog 'hit' happened a couple of weeks after Lisa was reported missing. LE did not remove the carpet so it appears it was an item on the carpet that contatined the scent for the 'hit'. That item could have made it's way to the parent's BR floor anytime in that 2 weeks so we can't even be sure that the BR holds any real significance to what happened to Lisa. JMHO... :waitasec:

 

[hambirg]

What is concerning to me is that the dog 'hit' happened a couple of weeks after Lisa was reported missing. LE did not remove the carpet so it appears it was an item on the carpet that contatined the scent for the 'hit'. That item could have made it's way to the parent's BR floor anytime in that 2 weeks so we can't even be sure that the BR holds any real significance to what happened to Lisa. JMHO... :waitasec:

It is true that a blanket or comforter could have been moved to the floor. BL could have been killed in her crib and the guilty party could have moved the blanket to the bedroom floor. Who would have had access to do that? And why would they?:waitasec:

ETA- I also have a question for our experts. Are certain dog breeds usually used for different scents? I know when I think of drug sniffing dogs I usually think of German Shepherds. Are there any "typical" breeds used for HRD, tracking, etc?

 

[Oriah]

IIRC Soon after Lisa went missing, there was a no-fly zone and ground access was restricted while search dogs were employing a new 'technique' that LE did not want to reveal, in an area near Lister. Has it ever been ascertained what this new technique was and if there were any tangible results from the search?

TIA

I'm fairly certain that if the no fly and limited ground access restrictions are accurate, then we're not going to know anything about that search at this time.

 

[Oriah]

It is true that a blanket or comforter could have been moved to the floor. BL could have been killed in her crib and the guilty party could have moved the blanket to the bedroom floor. Who would have had access to do that? And why would they?:waitasec:

ETA- I also have a question for our experts. Are certain dog breeds usually used for different scents? I know when I think of drug sniffing dogs I usually think of German Shepherds. Are there any "typical" breeds used for HRD, tracking, etc?

Some breeds are most commonly found working specific disciplines. But there are many breeds (as well as mixes) that can be found in the various fields as well.

 

[hambirg]

Some breeds are most commonly found working specific disciplines. But there are many breeds (as well as mixes) that can be found in the various fields as well.

I figured as much. Lol

So what would pit bulls, or some breed or mix breed that looked similar to pit bulls "typically" be used for?

I'm not very covert, am I?

And I am admittedly not much of a dog person.

ETA- not that I don't respect them and the people that work with them. I'm just a cat person. Give me any cat and I can probably train them in a day. I was raised with them and understand them, dogs. . .not so much.

 

[Oriah]

I figured as much. Lol

So what would pit bulls, or some breed or mix breed that looked similar to pit bulls "typically" be used for?

I'm not very covert, am I?

And I am admittedly not much of a dog person.

ETA- not that I don't respect them and the people that work with them. I'm just a cat person. Give me any cat and I can probably train them in a day. I was raised with them and understand them, dogs. . .not so much.

Not sure of the question?

 

[KsStormy]

I know I have asked this question or a variation of it before, but wasn't really sure if it was answered. If there is a body deposited in a river such as the Missouri, and the river is running as high & hard as it was in October after the massive flooding, would the HRD dogs NOT hitting on it be a surprising thing??
I guess I just don't understand nor am I able to explain my thinking well enough, but if a body is placed in a strong moving current, how are the dogs able to detect it, if it is washed away within seconds? If a body is NOT snagged or caught up, & is constantly moving at a high rate of speed, is it still detectable by the dogs?
Maybe this has never been documented to this exact example; the flooding of the Missouri last summer was said to be historic. I understand the dogs picking up odors from a decaying body in a lake or pond, but what about one that was fresh, & on the move in such a vast, quick-moving body of water? The old cartoon "Underdog" comes to mind... these dogs aren't super-dogs. :waitasec:

 

[Oriah]

I know I have asked this question or a variation of it before, but wasn't really sure if it was answered. If there is a body deposited in a river such as the Missouri, and the river is running as high & hard as it was in October after the massive flooding, would the HRD dogs NOT hitting on it be a surprising thing??
I guess I just don't understand nor am I able to explain my thinking well enough, but if a body is placed in a strong moving current, how are the dogs able to detect it, if it is washed away within seconds? If a body is NOT snagged or caught up, & is constantly moving at a high rate of speed, is it still detectable by the dogs?
Maybe this has never been documented to this exact example; the flooding of the Missouri last summer was said to be historic. I understand the dogs picking up odors from a decaying body in a lake or pond, but what about one that was fresh, & on the move in such a vast, quick-moving body of water? The old cartoon "Underdog" comes to mind... these dogs aren't super-dogs. :waitasec:

Swiftly moving bodies of water are very difficult for dogs to work. I think we've touched on this before- the difference in using a water search dog on a lake, pond, etc vs a river or ocean that is moving swiftly.

Taking an HRD water search dog out after water has calmed is sometimes more useful, because victims at times become caught up in places, and they can scent off of that.
Hope that helps.

 

[hambirg]

Not sure of the question?

It's ok, I think I found the answer. Tracking.