**Verdict watch weekend discussion thread** 3/3-4/2012

[cody100]

Okay Folks, I made my comments after careful thought. I have not judged or jumped on you guys, but some of your comments and facts are one sided and not totally factual. Secondly I don't appreciate some of your comments. My comments were made in an effort to reduce the snippiness, and it seems they did not do that.

First: I can't tell what shoes were on JY at CB or at HI. Some have translated something that might be HP to they are the HP. Secondly, JY bought a pair of HP 1.5 years before this murder. SA Morrow admitted there was not sufficient detail to make a comparison of the shoe print to the shoe (assuming it was available for comparison). The broad class characteristics appeared to be those of three shoes marketed by HP, one of which was the Orbital which JY bought. The size of the print could have been a 12, but PT's expert admitted it could have been a size belor or above. It is good evidence, but it isn't the smoking gun that is implied when you can't conclusively put those shoes on JY at CB or HI. Better resolution on the images could help, then I would know.

Don't blame the DT for problems with Gracie. LE could have helped her testimony by searching harder for verification from the unknown witness. And even SA Tart was exposed for his judgement of Gracie's testimony. Hey I admit she may have seen JY but I refuse to put a man away for life when there are admitted memory disabilities in the key witness. It seems that some of you would judge her differently than the DT's witnesses.

Again, these are my opinions. Respect my right to them, and I promise you I will not judge you for your differences.

 

[Cammy]

Okay Folks, I made my comments after careful thought. I have not judged or jumped on you guys, but some of your comments and facts are one sided and not totally factual. Secondly I don't appreciate some of your comments. They were made in an effort to reduce the snippiness, and it seems they did not do that.

First: I can't tell what shoes were on JY at CB or at HI. Some have translated something that might be HP to they are the HP. Secondly, JY bought a pair of HP 1.5 years before this murder. SA Morrow admitted there was not sufficient detail to make a comparison of the shoe print to the shoe (assuming it was available for comparison). The broad class characteristics appeared to be those of three shoes marketed by HP, one of which was the Orbital which JY bought. The size of the print could have been a 12, but PT's expert admitted it could have been a size belor or above. It is good evidence, but it isn't the smoking gun that is implied when you can't conclusively put those shoes on JY at CB or HI. Better resolution on the images could help, then I would know.

Don't blame the DT for problems with Gracie. LE could have helped her testimony by searching harder for verification from the unknown witness. And even SA Tart was exposed for his judgement of Gracie's testimony. Hey I admit she may have seen JY but I refuse to put a man away for life when there are admitted memory disabilities in the key witness. It seems that some of you would judge her differently than the DT's witnesses.

Again, these are my opinions. Respect my right to them, and I promise you I will not judge you for your differences.

:goodpost: Cody!!

 

[Cheyenne130]

Okay Folks, I made my comments after careful thought. I have not judged or jumped on you guys, but some of your comments and facts are one sided and not totally factual. Secondly I don't appreciate some of your comments. They were made in an effort to reduce the snippiness, and it seems they did not do that.

First: I can't tell what shoes were on JY at CB or at HI. Some have translated something that might be HP to they are the HP. Secondly, JY bought a pair of HP 1.5 years before this murder. SA Morrow admitted there was not sufficient detail to make a comparison of the shoe print to the shoe (assuming it was available for comparison). The broad class characteristics appeared to be those of three shoes marketed by HP, one of which was the Orbital which JY bought. The size of the print could have been a 12, but PT's expert admitted it could have been a size belor or above. It is good evidence, but it isn't the smoking gun that is implied when you can't conclusively put those shoes on JY at CB or HI. Better resolution on the images could help, then I would know.

Don't blame the DT for problems with Gracie. LE could have helped her testimony by searching harder for verification from the unknown witness. And even SA Tart was exposed for his judgement of Gracie's testimony. Hey I admit she may have seen JY but I refuse to put a man away for life when there are admitted memory disabilities in the key witness. It seems that some of you would judge her differently than the DT's witnesses.

Again, these are my opinions. Respect my right to them, and I promise you I will not judge you for your differences.

BBM

It doesn't matter if you believe those were HP shoes. The look is consistent with HP shoes and whatever brand those shoes are that are seen on his feet in the Cracker Barrel video, those shoes are gone! They were not in his car, in his luggage or on his feet. Where did they go?????

 

[Grammy Jean]

Okay Folks, I made my comments after careful thought. I have not judged or jumped on you guys, but some of your comments and facts are one sided and not totally factual. Secondly I don't appreciate some of your comments. They were made in an effort to reduce the snippiness, and it seems they did not do that.

First: I can't tell what shoes were on JY at CB or at HI. Some have translated something that might be HP to they are the HP. Secondly, JY bought a pair of HP 1.5 years before this murder. SA Morrow admitted there was not sufficient detail to make a comparison of the shoe print to the shoe (assuming it was available for comparison). The broad class characteristics appeared to be those of three shoes marketed by HP, one of which was the Orbital which JY bought. The size of the print could have been a 12, but PT's expert admitted it could have been a size belor or above. It is good evidence, but it isn't the smoking gun that is implied when you can't conclusively put those shoes on JY at CB or HI. Better resolution on the images could help, then I would know.

Don't blame the DT for problems with Gracie. LE could have helped her testimony by searching harder for verification from the unknown witness. And even SA Tart was exposed for his judgement of Gracie's testimony. Hey I admit she may have seen JY but I refuse to put a man away for life when there are admitted memory disabilities in the key witness. It seems that some of you would judge her differently than the DT's witnesses.

Again, these are my opinions. Respect my right to them, and I promise you I will not judge you for your differences.

I admire your genuine efforts to be non confrontational and explain your reasonable doubts in this case. I just have a big problem still with the shoes. Let's say the shoes JY had on in the CB and HI pic were maybe not HP's but they clearly were some type of a round toed casual dress shoe. Those round toed casual dress shoes were not recovered in his vehicle. JY then went out and bought a pair of round toed casual dress shoes that looked just like the ones he had on in the CB and HI pics on the day of his NTO.

 

[cody100]

BBM

It doesn't matter if you believe those were HP shoes. The look is consistent with HP shoes and whatever brand those shoes are that are seen on his feet in the Cracker Barrel video, those shoes are gone! They were not in his car, in his luggage or on his feet. Where did they go?????

I have no idea. If you can show me they are HP shoes, then I will logically deduce that they are indeed the shoes that could have made those impressions. If you can show me were on his feet that night, then he has a heap of explaining. Then I am on the G side.

 

[Grammy Jean]

BBM

It doesn't matter if you believe those were HP shoes. The look is consistent with HP shoes and whatever brand those shoes are that are seen on his feet in the Cracker Barrel video, those shoes are gone! They were not in his car, in his luggage or on his feet. Where did they go?????

Exactly my thoughts!! I just wrote almost the same thing before I read your post.

 

[Cheyenne130]

I have no idea. If you can show me they are HP shoes, then I will logically deduce that they are indeed the shoes that could have made those impressions. They were on his feet that night, and he has a heap of explaining. Then I am on the G side.

The "I have no idea" should get you past reasonable doubt. What happened to the shoes he was seen wearing on Nov. 2, 2006?

 

[Talina]

The "I have no idea" should get you past reasonable doubt. What happened to the shoes he was seen wearing on Nov. 2, 2006?

That's where I am with the issue with the shoes.

They are gone. To me, it is reasonable to presume they are gone for a reason. It is not reasonable for me to doubt they had anything to do with the events of that night due to all the other circumstances that point to JY. For me, those shoe prints and then those shoes being missing, seal the deal. (the shirt also being missing is just icing on the cake after the shoes)

IMO

 

[cody100]

I admire your genuine efforts to be non confrontational and explain your reasonable doubts in this case. I just have a big problem still with the shoes. Let's say the shoes JY had on in the CB and HI pic were maybe not HP's but they clearly were some type of a round toed casual dress shoe. Those round toed casual dress shoes were not recovered in his vehicle. JY then went out and bought a pair of round toed casual dress shoes that looked just like the ones he had on in the CB and HI pics on the day of his NTO.

I know GJ, I am frustrated that the images aren't better. If we could improve the image, I switch sides. If one other witness at the gas station could tell me they identify JY in a lineup or a pic ID, then he is Guilty for me. Those are my two issues keeping me from saying he is G. I realize I am very technical and analytically oriented so maybe that is partly why I have a struggle here.

He certainly had motive and means.

Thanks for you nice message.

 

[heidisams]

Okay Folks, I made my comments after careful thought. I have not judged or jumped on you guys, but some of your comments and facts are one sided and not totally factual. Secondly I don't appreciate some of your comments. My comments were made in an effort to reduce the snippiness, and it seems they did not do that.

First: I can't tell what shoes were on JY at CB or at HI. Some have translated something that might be HP to they are the HP. Secondly, JY bought a pair of HP 1.5 years before this murder. SA Morrow admitted there was not sufficient detail to make a comparison of the shoe print to the shoe (assuming it was available for comparison). The broad class characteristics appeared to be those of three shoes marketed by HP, one of which was the Orbital which JY bought. The size of the print could have been a 12, but PT's expert admitted it could have been a size belor or above. It is good evidence, but it isn't the smoking gun that is implied when you can't conclusively put those shoes on JY at CB or HI. Better resolution on the images could help, then I would know.

Don't blame the DT for problems with Gracie. LE could have helped her testimony by searching harder for verification from the unknown witness. And even SA Tart was exposed for his judgement of Gracie's testimony. Hey I admit she may have seen JY but I refuse to put a man away for life when there are admitted memory disabilities in the key witness. It seems that some of you would judge her differently than the DT's witnesses.

Again, these are my opinions. Respect my right to them, and I promise you I will not judge you for your differences.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us cody... I promise I wasn't trying to come off snarky or disrespectful... On the contrary, I love that we can debate this stuff here, and look forward to all the different opinions... Sorry if I came across as judgmental...

 

[LOMom]

Okay Folks, I made my comments after careful thought. I have not judged or jumped on you guys, but some of your comments and facts are one sided and not totally factual. Secondly I don't appreciate some of your comments. My comments were made in an effort to reduce the snippiness, and it seems they did not do that.

First: I can't tell what shoes were on JY at CB or at HI. Some have translated something that might be HP to they are the HP. Secondly, JY bought a pair of HP 1.5 years before this murder. SA Morrow admitted there was not sufficient detail to make a comparison of the shoe print to the shoe (assuming it was available for comparison). The broad class characteristics appeared to be those of three shoes marketed by HP, one of which was the Orbital which JY bought. The size of the print could have been a 12, but PT's expert admitted it could have been a size belor or above. It is good evidence, but it isn't the smoking gun that is implied when you can't conclusively put those shoes on JY at CB or HI. Better resolution on the images could help, then I would know.

Don't blame the DT for problems with Gracie. LE could have helped her testimony by searching harder for verification from the unknown witness. And even SA Tart was exposed for his judgement of Gracie's testimony. Hey I admit she may have seen JY but I refuse to put a man away for life when there are admitted memory disabilities in the key witness. It seems that some of you would judge her differently than the DT's witnesses.

Again, these are my opinions. Respect my right to them, and I promise you I will not judge you for your differences.

So, you want to state your opinion through your posts, but do not want any feedback or responses unless the poster agrees with your view? I just want to be clear.

 

[cody100]

The "I have no idea" should get you past reasonable doubt. What happened to the shoes he was seen wearing on Nov. 2, 2006?

Nope it doesn't. I am not even sure they were HP. Show me better images and that he was wearing the HP shoe similar to the orbital, then I have no problem. I am on the G side. I do not need to find the shoes.

 

[fromageball]

I have seen this comment made several times now by posters who think jy is either, NG, innocent, or are leaning toward NG. And I know many posters, myself included, have been convinced of his guilt because of the hp shoes. I understand we're not always going to agree, and respect everyone's opinions. But, I just don't see how it's reasonable to dismiss this evidence because they couldn't prove his feet were in his shoes. I get that there are some other explanations for it, but are they reasonable? Consider all the evidence that has come in... including, the picture of jy in shoes consistent with his hp's, on his feet, the night before... that went missing the following day. Is it more reasonable to think jy's feet were or weren't in those same shoes hours later? I can't help but wonder if our standard of proof is too high... IMO, it's what happened in the ca trial... Was that just a fluke or is it a new trend we can look forward to in other trials? It's quite frustrating and scary to consider the repercussions...
All JMO

I'm one of the NG nellies...the reason why I'm not convinced by the hush puppy shoes is that imo they don't put JY at the crime scene, just possibly his shoes, and other than that there is no evidence of him leaving the hotel grounds that night. If there was evidence that JY specifically tampered with the cameras or anything to corroborate Gracie's testimony, this case would be a slam dunk.

The prosecution saying that the camera was tampered with proves one thing: that a camera was tampered with. That's it unless they can produce some prints or other identifying evidence.

We also don't know that JY was wearing the hush puppys the night before. Sure it was testified that the very grainy pic of JY's feet were "consistent with" hush puppy orbitals but that really doesn't mean much. No one can say with certainty that the shoes in the photos are the hush puppys in question, or they would not need to choose their words so carefully.

I could believe that the killer was wearing franklin size 10 shoes and managed to grab JY's hush puppy shoes from wherever and made prints with them. Or that someone else entirely had the same shoes and was wearing them.

Was there a witness to analyze JY's wear pattern and compare it to the print(s)? If not, I can't conclude who the prints belong to. The jury might, however.

JMO

Casey Anthony is a perfect example, to me, of a case where all of the circumstantial evidence points to her, I think the jury's problem was that they couldn't pinpoint how Caylee died(or something...can't remember what they said) but they were crying and it was clear they knew she did it.

This case is nothing like CA imo.

 

[cody100]

So, you want to state your opinion through your posts, but do not want any feedback or responses unless the poster agrees with your view? I just want to be clear.

I will as long as it is done in a respectful manner. Read some later posts that were done nicely. I answered them.

 

[Cammy]

But until today people have acted like it was the gospel that he could wear the shoes... Now we all know its possible he may not have.. Simple as that ;-) Really none of us know.... You say he could I say he couldnt.... What does the jury think?? Or do they even think about the size 10.. I know I would really be thinking why didnt they expound on the shoes..

I can not figure out why the state did not do this experiment, unless they did try it, and I am pretty sure they must have.

They went out to the Hampton Inn to make sure a twig would hold the lock open, and to make sure a bush was in reach, why not have someone with
Size 12 feet try on a pair of Size 10 shoes?

I am wondering, if the Jury could still ask if that could be done?

 

[Cammy]

IIRC correctly Meredith said that there was a table in that hallway and that something had been on that table, she just couldn't remember what exactly it was. She just knew something had been on that table, and now it wasn't.

I don't know if this has already been answered, I am just catching up, but it was a large vase that was missing from the table.

 

[LOMom]

Nope it doesn't. I am not even sure they were HP. Show me better images and that he was wearing the HP shoe similar to the orbital, then I have no problem. I am on the G side. I do not need to find the shoes.

He owned size 12 hush puppies and a bloody shoe print of size 12 (or close to it) hush puppies was at the scene.

Regardless if we believe the shoes he was wearing the evening of 11/2 were HP's or not, where are the shoes he was wearing?

 

[Grammy Jean]

I can not figure out why the state did not do this experiment, unless they did try it, and I am pretty sure they must have.

They went out to the Hampton Inn to make sure a twig would hold the lock open, and to make sure a bush was in reach, why not have someone with
Size 12 feet try on a pair of Size 10 shoes?

I am wondering, if the Jury could still ask if that could be done?

So Cammy, did you believe OJ was innocent because of the glove demonstration?

 

[Talina]

I don't know if this has already been answered, I am just catching up, but it was a large vase that was missing from the table.

Wait a sec. Didn't MF say she thought it was a vase or something like that but she wasn't quite sure.

IMO.

 

[gracielee]

I admire your genuine efforts to be non confrontational and explain your reasonable doubts in this case. I just have a big problem still with the shoes. Let's say the shoes JY had on in the CB and HI pic were maybe not HP's but they clearly were some type of a round toed casual dress shoe. Those round toed casual dress shoes were not recovered in his vehicle. JY then went out and bought a pair of round toed casual dress shoes that looked just like the ones he had on in the CB and HI pics on the day of his NTO.

Great explanation, Grammy! Those round toed shoes, that the HP guy said 'were consistent with' the HP's, are GONE. Everyone involved in this case, PY, HY, MF, everybody from both sides said NOTHING was removed from JLY's SUV. And it was impounded immediately upon arrival at MF's house in Fuquay. JLY did NOT have those shoes on his feet, per his mother, per MF, per LF, per everybody who saw him that night. So where did those shoes seen both a CB and HI go? Now in JLY's testimony at the first trial he said michelle gave those shoes to goodwill. But by his lawyers backtracking and agreeing those prints were HP's, they in effect have conceded michelle did NOT give away his HP's. They had to concede the prints were made by HP's. Like grammy said, the round-toed shoes were missing from JLY luggage along with the dark shirt with the light/white stripe. Both items he was last seen in on video.