trial thread: 04/03/2012

[nobodyzgirl]

Does everyone just skip over my posts!!



AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court


Carnegie has finished. Derstine will cross examine Pollanen tomorrow. Done for the day.

Sorry, I hadn't seen your post when I responded. I promise, I always read your posts

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Sorry, I hadn't seen your post when I responded. I promise, I always read your posts

Okay I forgive you!

 

[antiquegirl]

Do the jurors see the purple ribbons outside of the courthouse and associate that with Tori? Would they notice the colour the defendant is wearing and connect it to Tori? This could look bad for MR. JMO

(BBM)

Standard judge's instructions to the jury:

Every juror must be impartial, which means that every juror must approach the trial with an open mind and without preconceived ideas. He or she must decide the case solely on the basis of the evidence at trial and the instructions on the law from (me) the trial judge.

I'm having a hard time believing that an impartial jury is going to base their verdict in any way, shape, or form on the colour of the defendant's clothing. To have this brought up during deliberations for debate seems petty and ludicrous. Any subconscious deduction about it should be repressed. It's a trial, not "What Not To Wear". A man's whole life is at stake here.

JMO

 

[Macright]

Well that is one way of simplifying and disregarding everything the crown has presented so far.

The renowned pathologist also said that he can't prove that a sexaul assault did not take place. And the reason is very relevent. This poor child's genitals were too decomposed to determine one way or the other. And the defendent could have prevented that. But chose to remain silent and let that decomposition just continue on for a couple more months.

So I guess for a certain percentage of the average public, unless you get it on tape or have definitive DNA evidence...a crime did not occur.

MOO

Tori was still wearing her shirt when she was found..from what we know to date it wasn't removed for any reason...IF she was sexually attacked one would think they would be able to find some fibers etc. on it to connect to MR as he would have had to be very close to her body if he had done what some think he did.. lets just assume that he did do that awful deed...why not remove the shirt and throw it away with the rest of her clothing..why take the chance and leave it on her...doesn't make sense to me:banghead: :moo::moo:

 

[matou]

But, working with forensic anthropologist Dr. Kathy Gruspier, who put Tori’s skull back together à la Humpty Dumpty, Dr. Pollanen learned the bones of her face were markedly fractured (cheekbones and nose) and that her reconstituted skull was a patchwork of linear and depressed fractures.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...ford-died-but-not-how-someone-could-kill-her/

This amazing woman also examined Christine Jessop's body when it was exhumed and found tons of evidence that was overlooked by the pathologist the first time around. In this case, she helped determine that Tori's face was smashed in if both her cheekbones were broken and her nose broken too. To me this means a punch in the face by the one sexually assaulting her. Both girls had the same trauma to their face. Both were abducted to be sexually assaulted, and later, viciously murdered. JMO

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...ford-died-but-not-how-someone-could-kill-her/

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Tori was still wearing her shirt when she was found..from what we know to date it wasn't removed for any reason...IF she was sexually attacked one would think they would be able to find some fibers etc. on it to connect to MR as he would have had to be very close to her body if he had done what some think he did.. lets just assume that he did do that awful deed...why not remove the shirt and throw it away with the rest of her clothing..why take the chance and leave it on her...doesn't make sense to me:banghead: :moo::moo:

#1 I was thinking about that especially since I noticed that the right sleeve appears to have been cut. Perhaps some DNA was found there. The sleeve doesn't seem to have been torn off but cut with a pair of scissors.

#2 sloppiness... newbie mistake... who knows

 

[Salem]

That's true she did, IMO he could have easily crushed her ribs just trying to hold on to her especially if she was facing away from him.

This was my initial thought with the description given by the Dr. of "compression." I was thinking a squeezing, like a super strong bear hug.

It will be interesting to read the news reports and see how this testimony is quoted. So far there have been several different words used. I would really like to know exactly what the Dr. said.

Salem

 

[dilbert]

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...ford-died-but-not-how-someone-could-kill-her/

This amazing woman also examined Christine Jessop's body when it was exhumed and found tons of evidence that was overlooked by the pathologist the first time around. In this case, she helped determine that Tori's face was smashed in if both her cheekbones were broken and her nose broken too. To me this means a punch in the face by the one sexually assaulting her. Both girls had the same trauma to their face. Both were abducted to be sexually assaulted, and later, viciously murdered. JMO

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...ford-died-but-not-how-someone-could-kill-her/

Considering the fact that TLM testified that she stomped and kicked Tori, it could mean she was kicked in the face too, and that caused the broken nose and cheekbones.

MOO

 

[Sillybilly]

So I guess for a certain percentage of the average public, unless you get it on tape or have definitive DNA evidence...a crime did not occur.

MOO

<rsbm>

Let's not forget that the jury is made up of "the average public".

 

[dilbert]

#1 I was thinking about that especially since I noticed that the right sleeve appears to have been cut. Perhaps some DNA was found there. The sleeve doesn't seem to have been torn off but cut with a pair of scissors.

#2 sloppiness... newbie mistake... who knows

Very true. The pathologist only testified that there was no physical evidence of sexual assault on Tori's body. That's not to say there was no DNA on her shirt to prove otherwise, or anywhere in his car, etc.

Time will tell.

MOO

 

[matou]

Considering the fact that TLM testified that she stomped and kicked Tori, it could mean she was kicked in the face too, and that caused the broken nose and cheekbones.

MOO

She testified to hitting Tori with the hammer and kicking Tori in the ribs. I would suppose she would testify to stomping Tori in the face too if she did. JMO

 

[roseofsharon]

But he was there, he could have stopped it and he made the decision not to. I don't believe for one minute he came upon a fait accompli.

After today's testimony, imo, there would have been guttural sounds coming from TLM during her raging murdering frenzy.

With the injuries sustained, I doubt it all occurred very quietly.

Moo

 

[dilbert]

She testified to hitting Tori with the hammer and kicking Tori in the ribs. I would suppose she would testify to stomping Tori in the face too if she did. JMO

Tori was 8, pretty small still, curled in the fetal position, head pointed down. TLM in a rage, feet kicking, stomping...a few blows hit her face.

There's also the rocks.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

Tori was still wearing her shirt when she was found..from what we know to date it wasn't removed for any reason...IF she was sexually attacked one would think they would be able to find some fibers etc. on it to connect to MR as he would have had to be very close to her body if he had done what some think he did.. lets just assume that he did do that awful deed...why not remove the shirt and throw it away with the rest of her clothing..why take the chance and leave it on her...doesn't make sense to me:banghead: :moo::moo:

Well that would be suggesting that MR was expecting the body to be found and that it would be linked to him. IMO, only the items of clothing that were impeding a sexual assault would need to be removed.

And Dr Pollanen testified that the shirt was hard to make out on the remains due to decompositional fluid so it's unlikely that any fibers would have been found on the shirt. I also understood that MR discarded the shirt he was wearing according to TLM.

MOO

 

[snoofer]

But he was there, he could have stopped it and he made the decision not to. I don't believe for one minute he came upon a fait accompli.

After today's testimony, imo, there would have been guttural sounds coming from TLM during her raging murdering frenzy.

With the injuries sustained, I doubt it all occurred very quietly.

Moo

..and if following the defense theory..would you THEN get in the car for the ride back with the whacko and the hammer if you were innocent???or would you take a chance and make a run for it or even...just maybe...be a HERO and do all you could to protect whatever was left of that little girl. Geesh.:banghead::twocents: The only way I can see them getting back in that car together is if they acted together IMO

As a side note: I think IMO that a judge if he does not think the jury decision reasonable can dismiss the jury and then rule on the defendants guilt or innocense. I think it is rare but has been done. IMO:banghead:

 

[Ardy]

I am not sure how a juror makes that leap, from there is no evidence of a sexual assault. to there is no evidence of a sexual assault but it could have been there before.

From his testimony, it sounded like the Dr. wanted to assist the Crown by saying evidence could have been there......and the lack of evidence doesn't mean there wasn't an assault, but the jurors have to judge the case on the facts and evidence...........not conjecture, regardless of who provides it.

 

[snoofer]

I am not sure how a juror makes that leap, from there is no evidence of a sexual assault. to there is no evidence of a sexual assault but it could have been there before.

From his testimony, it sounded like the Dr. wanted to assist the Crown by saying evidence could have been there......and the lack of evidence doesn't mean there wasn't an assault, but the jurors have to judge the case on the facts and evidence...........not conjecture, regardless of who provides it.

If a body is never found...does it mean there was no murder. People have been trialed and convicted in absence of a body.:twocents:

 

[roseofsharon]

Paraphrasing: I'm alright too ... considering!

UGH!!!

MOO:maddening:

 

[swedie]

IMO, what would seminal fluid being found in MR's car prove? There are many reasons for it to be found in his own vehicle. MOO

If I have time at some point I may provide you with scientific facts. For now hope this will suffice. MR's semen may have been found mixed with Tori's DNA or blood for example. Let's say because TLM herself stated MR and her had sex in his car the first night they met, forensic experts may find MR's semen mixed with TLM's DNA. Same could go for any other person he may have had sex with in his car. Also scientists may also be able to determine how old semen stains are. I don't know this for certainty but it is possible. HTH and MOO.

 

[Flowercb]

IMO there is no way an 8 year old girl would have taken off her clothing in front of two strangers, dirty or not.

I completely agree. Has everyone forgotten that the back seat is missing? :moo: