GZ Case - Defense Perspective

[iluvmua]

Well let's see what do we know. We know GZ shot TM. We know GZ tracked him down. We know TM was hiding and did not double back because GZ admits walking down the cut through sidewalk and not seeing TM. If TM had kept running GZ would have seen him and heard him running. We know GZ got to Retreat View and walked back to get to his car by the timeline and while he was still on the phone with LE. We know GZ then doubled back and found TM. We know that the two were seen running towards where TM's body was found and GZ never admitted to running away from TM so GZ had to have been chasing TM yards away from where GZ claims to have been attacked by TM. We know GZ's goal was to not let TM get away. Given that TM had no injuries of a fight but GZ did. Could it be GZ that was fighting to hold onto TM and TM was trying to get away. GZ's injuries could be consistent with someone falling backwards and having someone fall on top of him. But to me it now looks more likely that TM really was trying to get away from GZ which is what he was doing from the time he passed the clubhouse.

GZ had a goal to keep TM from getting away which is obvious because he tried to follow TM. TM was on his way home and on the phone with his girlfriend. Hardly someone looking for a fight. I think defense will have a hard time with GZ. GZ's past record of violence is far greater than TM's boyish pranks. And with the neighbor's comment "he was mad as he!! and just couldn't take it any more", well that says a lot doesn't it about what his friend felt about GZ attitude that night. jmo

Link? Based on what? "These a- holes always get away? He made a comment, that does not mean he was not going to let TM get away.

If TM was really on his way back home, he would have made it home before GZ even finished his 911 call.

LE even told the Martin Family that TM doubled back to confront GZ.

Everything that we have heard so far backs up GZ.

there's no disputing that.

His neighbor has no idea what George was thinking that night. it's his opinion that GZ was mad as
hell and just could not take it anymore.

JMO

 

[gxm]

Well let's see what do we know. We know GZ shot TM. We know GZ tracked him down. We know TM was hiding and did not double back because GZ admits walking down the cut through sidewalk and not seeing TM. If TM had kept running GZ would have seen him and heard him running. We know GZ got to Retreat View and walked back to get to his car by the timeline and while he was still on the phone with LE. We know GZ then doubled back and found TM. We know that the two were seen running towards where TM's body was found and GZ never admitted to running away from TM so GZ had to have been chasing TM yards away from where GZ claims to have been attacked by TM. We know GZ's goal was to not let TM get away. Given that TM had no injuries of a fight but GZ did. Could it be GZ that was fighting to hold onto TM and TM was trying to get away. GZ's injuries could be consistent with someone falling backwards and having someone fall on top of him. But to me it now looks more likely that TM really was trying to get away from GZ which is what he was doing from the time he passed the clubhouse.

GZ had a goal to keep TM from getting away which is obvious because he tried to follow TM. TM was on his way home and on the phone with his girlfriend. Hardly someone looking for a fight. I think defense will have a hard time with GZ. GZ's past record of violence is far greater than TM's boyish pranks. And with the neighbor's comment "he was mad as he!! and just couldn't take it any more", well that says a lot doesn't it about what his friend felt about GZ attitude that night. jmo

BBM.

How do we "know" any of these things? This is speculation. None of this information is known. Has there been a doc dump that I missed?

We don't know that GZ "tracked" TM. We don't know whether or not TM was hiding. We don't know that either one was seen running (as in positively identified).

What we do know is that one witness says he saw GZ on the ground, being beaten, and shouting for help. And that GZ says he had lost sight of TM and was heading back to his car when he was attacked.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[iluvmua]

Did George have to tell Trayvon that he had a gun?

 

[songline]

If TM was just laying on the ground screaming for his life, and GZ was sitting on top of him, holding him at gun point, waiting for LE to arrive any second, WHY the heck would he pull the trigger?

GZ KNOWS there are plenty of people there already looking out their windows. Why would he shoot someone for no reason on front of many witnesses just as LE is about to appear? The only reason that I can think of is that he was battling over control of the gun and had no choice.

BBM: Good questions.

 

[Phoenixfla]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/us/trayvon-martin-case-shadowed-by-police-missteps.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

Don’t know if you have all seen this article, but there is a lot og new information in it. Looks like the NYTs actually did some reporting instead of regergertating.

The title of the article ”Trayvon Martin Case Shadowed by Series of Police Missteps” is almost immediately countered with this paragraph:

In announcing the charge, Ms. Corey praised the Sanford Police Department’s work, indicating that it had conducted a “thorough and intensive” inquiry and was a “tremendous help” to her office.

Clothes were taken into evidence:

He was handcuffed and taken into “investigative detention” at Sanford police headquarters, where he was read his Miranda rights and answered questions without a lawyer present. Investigators described him as unhesitatingly cooperative. At some point, Mr. Zimmerman provided the police with a permit allowing him to carry a concealed weapon. His clothes were taken into evidence after his wife came to the station with a new set.

Tyoe of phone TM had:

Benjamin Crump, a lawyer for the Martins, said that Mr. Martin was carrying a T-Mobile Comet phone and that the police contacted his father a day or two after the shooting to get the password, but he did not know it.

Phone died after it was in police custody:

A law enforcement official said that the phone had died not long after the police retrieved it, and that it took days for the authorities to get a charger and an expert to try to get into the device. If the police had been able to get access to it, they could have interviewed Mr. Martin’s friend about what he had told her in those final moments of his life and what else she had heard. The police eventually subpoenaed Mr. Martin’s cellphone records, but did not receive them in a timely fashion.

THEN THIS BOMBSHELL:

The police conducted a lie-detection procedure, known as voice stress analysis, on Mr. Zimmerman that he passed, and they had him re-enact the encounter with Mr. Martin back at the Retreat the day after the shooting. But the operating belief was that the police did not have enough evidence to establish probable cause for a manslaughter charge and an arrest, according to officials with knowledge of the case.

 

[cityslick]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/us/trayvon-martin-case-shadowed-by-police-missteps.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

Don’t know if you have all seen this article, but there is a lot og new information in it. Looks like the NYTs actually did some reporting instead of regergertating.

The title of the article ”Trayvon Martin Case Shadowed by Series of Police Missteps” is almost immediately countered with this paragraph:



Clothes were taken into evidence:



Tyoe of phone TM had:



Phone died after it was in police custody:



THEN THIS BOMBSHELL:

Well that's interesting (about the LDT). That would of been the best time to give it too, right after the event happened.

 

[Elley Mae]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/us/trayvon-martin-case-shadowed-by-police-missteps.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

Don’t know if you have all seen this article, but there is a lot og new information in it. Looks like the NYTs actually did some reporting instead of regergertating.

The title of the article ”Trayvon Martin Case Shadowed by Series of Police Missteps” is almost immediately countered with this paragraph:



Clothes were taken into evidence:



Tyoe of phone TM had:



Phone died after it was in police custody:



THEN THIS BOMBSHELL:

Honestly, To me everyone overstepped on this from the wrong reporting to owe elected officials(they can be voted out) and because no one did their homework and tried to be the savior jumping out in front before it was realized and discovering that what we thought we knew was now not the truth. jmo

 

[jjenny]

The voice stress analysis thing has been reported long before NYT reported it.
It has been known for a while Zimmerman took a voice stress test.

 

[jjenny]

Well that's interesting (about the LDT). That would of been the best time to give it too, right after the event happened.

Not a LDT. A voice stress analysis. This is not new information, it was known almost from the start Zimmerman took a voice stress test.

 

[LambChop]

BBM.

How do we "know" any of these things? This is speculation. None of this information is known. Has there been a doc dump that I missed?

We don't know that GZ "tracked" TM. We don't know whether or not TM was hiding. We don't know that either one was seen running (as in positively identified).

What we do know is that one witness says he saw GZ on the ground, being beaten, and shouting for help. And that GZ says he had lost sight of TM and was heading back to his car when he was attacked.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

We know these things because GZ said he was attacked on his way walking back on the cut through where the sidewalk meets (which is out in the open, no place to hide so GZ would have seen TM from a distance). GZ claims TM knocked him down right there. But a witness claims the two were running to where TM's body was found yards, yards away from where GZ said he initially was knocked down and beaten by TM.

According to the timeline GZ was still on the phone talking to LE with a minute to go when he would have reached the cut through. LE was telling GZ to meet with the patrol car at GZ's vehicle. Why did GZ run to the next street to find a house number when his car was on Twin Trees? That makes no sense. He was looking for TM. Unless GZ has severe comprehension problems he understood what LE was asking him to do. GZ then blows LE off by telling them they/or he will call back when he gets an address. He was planning on following TM and did not want to return to his car, IMO. It's possible he figured he would call LE back with a location once he found TM.

Even though he was asked to return to his car and had plenty of time to do so, GZ did not but continued to pursue TM. We know TM was hiding because he told his gf that GZ found him. That area where the back sidewalk is way too open for GZ not to have seen TM running or walking. I think TM was just trying to lose GZ. There is no doubt GZ was pursuing TM. He was not just out for a casual stroll plus he admitted to LE he was following TM.

Taking all the information that we know so far it's pretty easy to see what happened. But, there are always two ways to look at a situation. You have to consider who was in control, who could have prevented this from happening and who was the more aggressive up to the point of contact. I do consider that aggressively following someone by car and getting out and pursuing them on foot is not a sign that GZ was planning on formally introducing himself, nor did he have the best intentions for TM. He had that opportunity at the clubhouse but chose to make TM appear to be a criminal in the eyes of LE. jmo

 

[lisalei321]

We know these things because GZ said he was attacked on his way walking back on the cut through where the sidewalk meets (which is out in the open, no place to hide so GZ would have seen TM from a distance). GZ claims TM knocked him down right there. But a witness claims the two were running to where TM's body was found yards, yards away from where GZ said he initially was knocked down and beaten by TM.

According to the timeline GZ was still on the phone talking to LE with a minute to go when he would have reached the cut through. LE was telling GZ to meet with the patrol car at GZ's vehicle. Why did GZ run to the next street to find a house number when his car was on Twin Trees? That makes no sense. He was looking for TM. Unless GZ has severe comprehension problems he understood what LE was asking him to do. GZ then blows LE off by telling them they/or he will call back when he gets an address. He was planning on following TM and did not want to return to his car, IMO. It's possible he figured he would call LE back with a location once he found TM.

Even though he was asked to return to his car and had plenty of time to do so, GZ did not but continued to pursue TM. We know TM was hiding because he told his gf that GZ found him. That area where the back sidewalk is way too open for GZ not to have seen TM running or walking. I think TM was just trying to lose GZ. There is no doubt GZ was pursuing TM. He was not just out for a casual stroll plus he admitted to LE he was following TM.

Taking all the information that we know so far it's pretty easy to see what happened. But, there are always two ways to look at a situation. You have to consider who was in control, who could have prevented this from happening and who was the more aggressive up to the point of contact. I do consider that aggressively following someone by car and getting out and pursuing them on foot is not a sign that GZ was planning on formally introducing himself, nor did he have the best intentions for TM. He had that opportunity at the clubhouse but chose to make TM appear to be a criminal in the eyes of LE. jmo

:clap: :clap: :clap: Great Post! You said this much better than I could have!

 

[HiHater]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/us/trayvon-martin-case-shadowed-by-police-missteps.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

Don’t know if you have all seen this article, but there is a lot og new information in it. Looks like the NYTs actually did some reporting instead of regergertating.

The title of the article ”Trayvon Martin Case Shadowed by Series of Police Missteps” is almost immediately countered with this paragraph:



Clothes were taken into evidence:



Tyoe of phone TM had:



Phone died after it was in police custody:



THEN THIS BOMBSHELL:

thanks for the link, it is a very interesting article.

Snips

Some Sanford officers were skeptical from the beginning about certain details of Mr. Zimmerman’s account. For instance, he told the police that Mr. Martin had punched him over and over again, but they questioned whether his injuries were consistent with the number of blows he claimed he received. They also suspected that some of the threatening and dramatic language that Mr. Zimmerman said Mr. Martin uttered during the struggle — like “You are going to die tonight” — sounded contrived.

At one department meeting a few days after Mr. Martin’s death, a representative from Mr. Wolfinger’s office was told about the inconsistencies the police saw in Mr. Zimmerman’s account.

Emphasis mine

I can't wait to see all of the evidence! Seems like his story has been inconsistent and somewhat unbelievable since the very beginning...JMO

 

[LambChop]

:clap: :clap: :clap: Great Post! You said this much better than I could have!

I owe it all to Papa. He did such great work with his charts and measurements to help us put some of these pieces together. jmo

 

[jjenny]

If there inconsistencies about how many times Zimmerman believed he was punched? He was in a fight. I doubt he counted. Are they really expecting someone being a fight to be exactly accurate on how many times he was punched?

 

[HiHater]

If there inconsistencies about how many times Zimmerman believed he was punched-hello? He was in a fight. I doubt he counted.
Are they really expecting someone being a fight to be exactly accurate on how many times he was punched?

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

What they are expecting is someone to tell the truth and not rely on movie scenes (IMO) to justify their self-defense claim.

Is it too much to ask that the evidence at the scene match his version of events?

 

[wowitsdark]

Even though he was asked to return to his car and had plenty of time to do so, GZ did not but continued to pursue TM.

Because words are important, at what point was he *asked* to return to his car, and what words were used?

 

[jjenny]

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

What they are expecting is someone to tell the truth and not rely on movie scenes (IMO) to justify their self-defense claim.

Is it too much to ask that the evidence at the scene match his version of events?

So far I see evidence matching his version of events. His injuries support the idea he was on the ground being beat up. Whereas there is lack of physical injuries to Mr. Martin except for the scrape on a finger prior to deadly force being used.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Here is a little problem with the defense.

Testifying today, Zimmerman's father, Robert, a former magistrate, told the court that the day after Martin was killed he saw injuries his son suffered.

"His face was swollen quite a bit," Robert Zimmerman said. "There was a protective cover over his nose, his lip was cut and there were two vertical gashes on the back of his head."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zim...parents/story?id=16177849&page=2#.T7UN73po9XY

According to the medical report there was no cut on the lip.

........................................................

The record shows that Zimmerman also suffered bruising in the upper lip and cheek and lower back pain.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zim...juries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7UOqnpo9XY

 

[LambChop]

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

What they are expecting is someone to tell the truth and not rely on movie scenes (IMO) to justify their self-defense claim.

Is it too much to ask that the evidence at the scene match his version of events?

I think in order to prove GZ felt he was in fear of his life TM should have had a little more than a scratch on his left finger. I think,too, it is more convincing, at least to me, that TM was just trying to get away from GZ. And I think GZ did not want TM going anywhere until LE got there. Regardless of how GZ was injured I believe it made him mad and if TM tried to get away from him he reacted by pulling his gun and then had to use it on TM because TM tried to prevent GZ from shooting him. That's just my impression, jmo.

 

[Phoenixfla]

In response to speculation that the defense in this case may be paying posters to monitor and participate in forums such as this one, I thought I'd point out that such suspicions are far from isolated to this message board. They, in fact, have been largely regarded, and accepted as true elsewhere, as a way for the defense to further the reach of their social media "PR" campaign - not only gauging public opinion / reaction to their arguments (and defense-bolstering leaks), but to methodically sway individual viewpoints, and taint the potential jury pool.

I must add, I wouldn't buy a used car from MOM (if he were selling any, that is), and I don't know how such seemingly slick, tricky/slimy criminal defense lawyers can sleep at night...(excepted, of course, are those rare birds who represent innocent clients)

Care to share a link? Only PR campaign I have seen is from Crump and Associates.