2012.05.17 Doc Dump Thread

[pcrum12]

I've only read a little of the discovery but I did notice this. Officer Santiago wrote in his report "I observed a key chain lying on the grass near the T portion of the walkway, a black flashlight lying on the grass just east of the key chain". Something happened near that T intersection of the walkways.

http://htmlimg1.scribdassets.com/51lslk0d4w1lwcso/images/16-bb10389d86.jpg

Great Point! Kinda goes with GZ going back to vehicle and being jumped there doesn't it. IMO

 

[LambChop]

IMO Nothing racial was said but of course it is being looked into.What will happen if the judge drops all charges if he feels it is a SYG defense will it then matter?

Seems to me there is a lot that is blacked out that appears is damaging to GZ's case. Why else black it out? There are whole paragraphs gone and a couple of pages. Not all are names. But that is good because it will ensure he has a fair trial. jmo

 

[LambChop]

If the majority of crimes in my condo area where committed by individuals of my age and general description, I would be upset with THOSE CRIMINALS...bevause it is the statistics that are causing me to be watched.

There are hard working people of all races in that complex. THEY have a right to live in peace and keep the things they worked for. If that means that those who fit the description of the majority of criminals get "looked at"....that is the fault of the criminals.

This idea that we want less crime but we cannot hurt anyone's feeliings in trying to be safe...takes sensitivity too far. The right of all those people of all races to live there in safety trumps the "feelings" of a teenager being watched for 15 minutes and not liking it. This is not about race or ethnicity..but statistics.

What's the alternative? look away and watch a 90 year old Asian woman instead of a teenager who fits the description of those harrassing neighbors of all races? Or just don't watch at all...and let the Criminals run rampant?

But that was the job of LE to check on TM. It was not within GZ's rights to track him down the way he did once he called LE and said he was suspicious. GZ knew better, but did it anyway. GZ looking at an innocent person and deeming him to be a criminal was victimizing TM when all TM was doing at the time was walking home. TM had that very same right. To live in peace and not be followed by an unknown person he felt threaten by. You can't take away someone else's right just because you prejudge them to be a criminal and they aren't. That's profiling. Trying to take control away from LE can get you into trouble so it's better to let them handle it in the first place. Do what you are suppose to do.....call it in and step back and let LE do their job. That's the only right you have otherwise you could end up like GZ. jmo

 

[CathyinTexas]

Bringing my reply over from the other thread:

The video was taken at a distance and it was not high definition. Even so, both I and another WSer pointed out that we saw the bumps on the side of his nose even with the long distance and poor quality. IMO, this photo proves that we were correct in what we saw.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Good for Trayvon, I am glad he broke GZ's nose before GZ was shot and killed. This just proves to me that Trayvon stood his ground against an attacker. There is still the possibility that the nose was broken from the recoil of the gun. The cuts and scrapes on the back of GZ's head don't look that bad to me. I don't remember facial hair in the police photos either, though they are prominent in these photos. The fact that he refused medical help (then there is no documentation from unbiased sources), but waited until the next day to go to his private physician is telling. Some of us have said that it sounded like he was trying to lay the groundwork for justification of shooting Trayvon before he ever got out of his vehicle in pursuit. jmo

 

[CathyinTexas]

Item 14 pg 7 headphone in TM pocket? I thought it had been widely speculated he was talking on phone with headphones or headset when altercation started. How did headphones get in his pocket during a fight?

We know from witness reports that GZ had his hands on Trayvon so he could have something to do with that. The fact that he compromised the crime scene by doing that has not been mentioned by LE.

 

[gxm]

Good for Trayvon, I am glad he broke GZ's nose before GZ was shot and killed. This just proves to me that Trayvon stood his ground against an attacker. There is still the possibility that the nose was broken from the recoil of the gun. The cuts and scrapes on the back of GZ's head don't look that bad to me. I don't remember facial hair in the police photos either, though they are prominent in these photos. The fact that he refused medical help (then there is no documentation from unbiased sources), but waited until the next day to go to his private physician is telling. Some of us have said that it sounded like he was trying to lay the groundwork for justification of shooting Trayvon before he ever got out of his vehicle in pursuit. jmo

If TM had not attacked GZ, he would still be alive. I would prefer TM being alive to GZ having a broken nose.

JMO, OMO, and MOO

 

[4Jacy]

I strongly disagree with this post. How would you feel if you were profiled and followed by a non-LE stranger because of the color of your skin? It is the job of law enforcement to enforce the law, not random paranoid vigilante citizens.

This is for you: YOU ROCK!!!!

 

[mikeysmommom]

I strongly disagree with this post. How would you feel if you were profiled and followed by a non-LE stranger because of the color of your skin? It is the job of law enforcement to enforce the law, not random paranoid vigilante citizens.

Where is the proof he was followed because of his skin color? Besides from Mr.Crump and the media?.GZ might have been undercover or an off duty policeman at 17 that would have been my first thought if someone followed me so openly.Why wouldn't that cross his mind?Why jump to the conclusion TM assumed it was because he was Black, IMO it that kind of thinking put into young children's minds that lead to these kinds of out comes.When I was very young about 7 in around 1966 I was sent to summer camp for 2 weeks in the Poconos.When I arrived at camp every child and every counselor was black the owners and their son was white and so was I.For 2 weeks we all played rode horses,hiked trails,caught salamanders,picked apples and we all became friends.I had the best time ever till the last few days after the owners son told me he liked me lol and hoped I would come back the next year then gave me flowers he had picked.Later when we all went to our cabin about 15 of us I was pushed down and beat up because about 10 girls liked him and they said I deserved it they blamed me because he showed he liked me.When our counselor heard me crying out she came in and rescued me.She sent the girls out of the cabin they were all in trouble.She then tried to explain to me the reason my 10 new best friends beat me up.She said they were upset because they felt he liked me more because I was white like him and I said no he likes me more because I climb the trees to the top like he does and I always play baseball with him and the others boys and am very good at it.After they said they were sorry and we went outside to play.I was so happy they liked me again. I lived in a town that was completely white but even at 7 I just saw everyone as people like me, I knew they were all different shades and I was white as a ghost but I remember when I first met my counselor she was a beautiful coffee color she had a small rose tattoo and I do remember saying I had never saw a rose look so beautiful not even a real one and it did against the color of her skin.She laughed and said when I grew up I could have one too!I remember saying I am so pale it would never be as beautiful on me as it was her.And yes I went back the next year.Now if my mom would have said to me Oh my God they beat you for being white I would have believed my mom and most likely I would have turned out racist thinking if black people hated me
maybe I should hate them too.Sorry to ramble on lol.

 

[cityslick]

Well, after reviewing a majority of the docs, I'm still questioning the 2nd degree murder charge. I can see manslaughter though but then again even that is 50/50 to me because I don't know who started the fight.

Questions I still have:

Where was the body? I've seen different addresses in these doc dumps. Some are saying evidence was found near the T, which indicates it would be closer to 'John's' house.

Two seperate witnesses (one of which is John) collabate GZ's story of getting beat up. A second witness saw the scuffle and saw the person wearing red on the bottom.

The initial investigation troubles me alot. Everything was so non-SOP, from the cell phone pic by the cop to an investigator telling a witness that the screams came from GZ, not TM.

 

[Concerned Papa]

What evidence exists that Trayvon Martin instigated or started a fight with George? I've seen evidence that George got his azz handed to him by a 17 year old kid, but what witness or otherwise shows who started it, other than the "say so" of an accused murderer?

The fact that a witness says Trayvon was on top of George means nothing in regards to who the instigator of the confrontation was. All that means is "some can sing it" but "others can bring it". Kinda like this video.

Take 1:55 and watch what I mean:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XKxcasGpuI"]Punk Takes on Gulf War Vet and Gets Humiliated.avi - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Trayvon probably fell face first on to Georges body driving the back of that pistol into his nose.

 

[cityslick]

What evidence exists that Trayvon Martin instigated or started a fight with George? I've seen evidence that George got his azz handed to him by a 17 year old kid, but what witness or otherwise shows who started it, other than the "say so" of an accused murderer?

The fact that a witness says Trayvon was on top of George means nothing in regards to who the instigator of the confrontation was. All that means is "some can sing it" but "others can bring it". Kinda like this video.

Take 1:55 and watch what I mean:

Punk Takes on Gulf War Vet and Gets Humiliated.avi - YouTube

I agree there is no evidence that shows who started it. There is no evidence that show if GZ had his gun out or not prior to the confrontation. All we know is (according to witnesses), TM did in fact get the upper hand during the fight.

 

[stmarysmead]

But that was the job of LE to check on TM. It was not within GZ's rights to track him down the way he did once he called LE and said he was suspicious. GZ knew better, but did it anyway. GZ looking at an innocent person and deeming him to be a criminal was victimizing TM when all TM was doing at the time was walking home. TM had that very same right. To live in peace and not be followed by an unknown person he felt threaten by. You can't take away someone else's right just because you prejudge them to be a criminal and they aren't. That's profiling. Trying to take control away from LE can get you into trouble so it's better to let them handle it in the first place. Do what you are suppose to do.....call it in and step back and let LE do their job. That's the only right you have otherwise you could end up like GZ. jmo

GZ did not "track him down."....he watched him. That's what his volunteer job was all about. TM did not go straight home....he was not walking purposely to that condo. That and the fact that TM was not one of the neighborhod kids...coupled with statistics that put TM in the demographic of those criminializing that neighborhood...made it common sense to keep an eye on this stranger.

Too many thugs had gotten away "through the back gate"....too many thugs had done their crimes before LEcould get there. Trying to make it an outrage that GZ continued to watch this stranger in his neighborhood is putting sensitivity over crime and over common sense. So TM was watched. Either politely introduce yourself , call police, or GO HOME.

It is this sense of personal entitlement over common sense that allows crime to flourish. What if a strange teenager had killed a neighbor minutes later in commision of a crime. Would we not be criticizing the WATCH CAPTAIN who sat on his duff in the car and let that happen? Everyone's "rights" in that neighborhood were diminished by the thugs who were victimizing honest residents. Blame THEM for the extra scrutiny that made TM be looked at more closely.

People are tired of being victimized and hearing that we cannot use statistics to keep ourselves safe because someone's feelings may be hurt. THAT FACT is used by criminals to keep victimizing honest folks of all races.

 

[cityslick]

Trayvon probably fell face first on to Georges body driving the back of that pistol into his nose.

How did GZ's blood get on TM then? One of the docs have GZ's dna on TM's clothing.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Well, after reviewing a majority of the docs, I'm still questioning the 2nd degree murder charge. I can see manslaughter though but then again even that is 50/50 to me because I don't know who started the fight.

Questions I still have:

Where was the body? I've seen different addresses in these doc dumps. Some are saying evidence was found near the T, which indicates it would be closer to 'John's' house.

Two seperate witnesses (one of which is John) collabate GZ's story of getting beat up. A second witness saw the scuffle and saw the person wearing red on the bottom.

The initial investigation troubles me alot. Everything was so non-SOP, from the cell phone pic by the cop to an investigator telling a witness that the screams came from GZ, not TM.

That one bothers me too because they knew this lady was talkative and they tell her that to spread.

 

[mikeysmommom]

We know from witness reports that GZ had his hands on Trayvon so he could have something to do with that. The fact that he compromised the crime scene by doing that has not been mentioned by LE.

GZ himself told Le he had straddled TM because he did not realize he was dead or dying to keep his attacker from fleeing and that he checked for a weapon,I would have checked him too.Seems a reasonable thing to do after being attacked, punched so hard his nose broke,knocked down and fearing for his life.

 

[mikeysmommom]

That one bothers me too because they knew this lady was talkative and they tell her that to spread.

You know a lady that is not talkative lol.JMO but maybe he said it because other witnesses said it to him.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

How did GZ's blood get on TM then? One of the docs have GZ's dna on TM's clothing.

He had the bleeding head and what made that mark on George's nose?

 

[mikeysmommom]

GZ did not "track him down."....he watched him. That's what his volunteer job was all about. TM did not go straight home....he was not walking purposely to that condo. That and the fact that TM was not one of the neighborhod kids...coupled with statistics that put TM in the demographic of those criminializing that neighborhood...made it common sense to keep an eye on this stranger.

Too many thugs had gotten away "through the back gate"....too many thugs had done their crimes before LEcould get there. Trying to make it an outrage that GZ continued to watch this stranger in his neighborhood is putting sensitivity over crime and over common sense. So TM was watched. Either politely introduce yourself , call police, or GO HOME.

It is this sense of personal entitlement over common sense that allows crime to flourish. What if a strange teenager had killed a neighbor minutes later in commision of a crime. Would we not be criticizing the WATCH CAPTAIN who sat on his duff in the car and let that happen? Everyone's "rights" in that neighborhood were diminished by the thugs who were victimizing honest residents. Blame THEM for the extra scrutiny that made TM be looked at more closely.

People are tired of being victimized and hearing that we cannot use statistics to keep ourselves safe because someone's feelings may be hurt. THAT FACT is used by criminals to keep victimizing honest folks of all races.

Fantastic post.........I agree 100%

 

[cityslick]

He had the bleeding head and what made that mark on George's nose?

Wouldn't the gun have to be up near the face for that scenario to happen. I find it strange that if GZ was on the bottom he would still be able to lift his arms up to that level while 158 pounds comes crashing down on him.