NO BAIL! Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 -#30

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The more I think about it, the more odd it seems. I'm not a solicitor and I have never worked in criminal law, but have worked for solicitors for 30 years. I know how difficult it can be when two or more lawyers in the same firm work on a file (different styles etc). How on earth can it be done with three different firms? I can't see how it could be beneficial and in fact could hinder a matter. Also re costs, would be very easy for lawyers to "double up" on fees ( or "triple up" in this case LOL). What kind of a statement is GBC making with this move? :what:

Perhaps Mahoney is the "lead" and the other two will consult in just specific areas that may be more their particular expertise? .. e.g. maybe one is good a analysing evidence and the second one is good at controlling the media? IMO.
 
...There was once a 'durty' poster on a wall in a joke shop in the city - it was of a pile of animal dung covered in blowflies and it read....... "Ten million blowflies can't be wrong about sh_t"!!! :floorlaugh:
Cheers

Agree MANI. The analogy in the poster is a good one.
 
Dear Isabell,

I was there for weeks and weeks thinking that some breaking news would come to light and it wasn't him but you know the old saying........

too many people both on here and in the public at large know someone who is either a police officer/SES volunteer/in legal circles/ missing person specialist etc etc - the list is very long and most people seem to be saying the same thing and that is that they allege that he is guily and have thought so from day one. IMO

There was once a 'durty' poster on a wall in a joke shop in the city - it was of a pile of animal dung covered in blowflies and it read....... "Ten million blowflies can't be wrong about sh_t"!!! :floorlaugh:

Where there is smoke there is fire and there are some very smart, savvy members on here that haven't been taken in - they are very good bloodhounds and they have smelt the the scent of deception from the early days of the investigation! :websleuther:

Cheers
I have thought from the beginning that GBC was involved , responsible for his wife's death, disappearance . Nothing has changed my mind but I do realize things can play out differently in court due to the confines of law. Reasonable doubt will be the big factor here . He's not saying anything so the prosecution have to prove everything .GBC has planned it all quite well but something that night threw a spanner in the works .you make a good point that nothing has solidly tied him to this crime other than circumstances , but to me , the big glaring factor is , if it was accidental , ring ambulance , police , admit it , he's supposed to be a caring father of 3 young children. Why cover up & continue on like business as usual . No pleas for help in finding the real killer . No statements to police . These sorts of behaviors are indeed incriminating .My opinion only .
 
Both Isabellnecessary and DrWatson make some very valid points regarding supposed guilt. Most people make the mistake of looking at "evidence" with a view to finding guilt, but very seldom with a view to finding innocence. Thats only "half sleuthing".

I'm going to begin by analysing one of the core pieces of "evidence", popularly discribed as "dire financial circumstances" with debts supposedly totalling around 1 million dollars. These have been outline by various news outlets, I will use those outlined here:

The "debts" you posted are the debts we know about to date. He owed all this money to various people as loans...I've not seen a mention yet of the day to day debts such as employees wages...have they been paid....if so, where was that money coming from??.

Plus one would have to add to the above the usual costs of running a household...rent, electricity, food, clothing for a family of five. How was he paying for this??? Was he in arrears with any of these??

How about the taxman...I wonder if all's sweet & rosy with him.

Even one million dollars of real debt is not unusual for a medium sized business and cannot be described as it has been.

Yes I agree, the one million is probably not unusual...in a business that is running well that is. But in a business that had taken a dramatic downturn & had not been good for a long time....I would think he was in dire financial trouble....& he knew it!!!
 
Both Isabellnecessary and DrWatson make some very valid points regarding supposed guilt. Most people make the mistake of looking at "evidence" with a view to finding guilt, but very seldom with a view to finding innocence. Thats only "half sleuthing".

I'm going to begin by analysing one of the core pieces of "evidence", popularly discribed as "dire financial circumstances" with debts supposedly totalling around 1 million dollars. These have been outline by various news outlets, I will use those outlined here:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/gerard-baden-clay-conducting-ongoing-affair-at-time-of-wife-allisons-death-was-in-debt-and-had-inquired-about-her-life-insurance-police-affidavits-lodged-in-court-claim/story-e6frf7l6-1226406037780

1. $275,000 was owed to friends in "gentlemen's agreements.

Assuming that these are as described, gentlemen's agreements, there would be no pressure on the defendant in regard to repayment.

We don't know that ... maybe there was a pay by date?

2. $200,000 to a former business partner.

This also most likely falls into a similar category as the above.

Again, I believe there was a June 30 deadline.

3. $335,000 as guarantor on a mortgage.

This is not a debt at all. Its only a guarantee on a mortgage and should there be a default, the property would normally be sold and nobody is out of pocket. The guarantor may lose some money, but rarely all. Again, it is not a debt at all and is there solely to inflate the figures.

Agreed.

4. $45,000 on a credit card.

This is a very small amount of credit for a top real estate business. A pittance.

It wasn't a top R/E business anymore!

5. $75,000 to the CEO of Century 21.

Another very small business debt. I once worked for an enterprise much smaller thatn Century 21 who were regularly in debt to the tune of $500,000+. Another pittance for a business like Century 21.

We don't know if Mr. C21 wanted his money back now or in 5 years.

6. $58,000 to his parents.

I doubt very much that there would be any pressure at all for repayment of this debt.

Maybe, however they don't seem like they are swimming in cash ... $58,000 is not pennies!

So what do we get from the above? $120,000 of real debt that may have some kind of pressure for repayment. This is a very small amount for any medium sized business.

His was no longer a medium sized business. It had become a small business.

The "dire financial circumstances" are nothing other than a huge beat up by the QPS to help secure a refusal of bail for GBC. Not unusual, police are like that.

There are some here who seem to thing that the police "only do the right thing". All I can say is: Please wake up to the real world. The police are like a dog on a bone. Once they get a grip they are very one eyed and will do anything they can imagine to get their way. Thats how they really are.

Even one million dollars of real debt is not unusual for a medium sized business and cannot be described as it has been.

Yes, historically, there are dirty police ... but there are good ones too! IMO.

BBM
 
Even one million dollars of real debt is not unusual for a medium sized business and cannot be described as it has been.

Could you please support this statement with figures?

Also, GBC's franchise can not be categorised as medium-sized. To fit that category, he has to reach a turnover over $10mln a year at least, or ~$50 million on average. In terms of workforce, a medium sized business is defined as that with 20-199 staff, a small business has 5-19 staff, and a micro business - 1-4 staff. So rental, hiring and real estate services in Australia usually (98.1% ) operate as small businesses, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics.
 
Looking at the forensic manual posted on here it should have taken a couple of hours to get the logs. So not sure why it took so long. Also surprised there was no local expertise as I seem to remember them saying it was sent down to NSW for examination.

The phone along with the computers were sent to Australian Crime Commission in Melbourne....a government department = "take a ticket please & we'll serve you as soon as possible"....no different to when there seemed such a long wait on results for toxicology tests which also had to go through another gov dept.
 
Chris Nyst is a not only a lawyer.... he is an author and filmmaker

This case has captured the interest of so many people.
There will be many books written and a movie made about this whole saga.
Look at all the websleuths who can't tear themselves away from here (including me), facebook, and other crime sites going nuts wondering how this tale will turn out.

Chris Nyst has seen an opportunity to make money. He is probably defending GBC for no fees but wants the exclusive rights to a book and a film in return.

I indicated similar, however Hawkins clarified that if a lawyer did this, would not last long in the legal profession.
 
July 03, 2012 12:00AM

GERARD Baden-Clay has sought legal advice from yet another top Queensland criminal lawyer, confirming to authorities that three law firms were now helping him with his legal defence.
The 41-year-old former real estate agent accused of killing his wife was yesterday relocated from Arthur Gorrie Correctional Centre's medical unit to a protected cell, but not before a visit from one of Brisbane's leading defence lawyers, Michael Bosscher.

Upon exiting the correctional centre in Wacol yesterday afternoon, Mr Bosscher refused to comment on whether Baden-Clay was a new client.

"No quotes at this stage," he said.

"I'm not even confirming I've been to see him. I come out here every single day to see different people."

The Courier-Mail understands Baden-Clay has written to Queensland Corrective Services informing them he wants to extend his legal counsel from Jacobson Mahony Lawyers, to also include Bosscher Lawyers and Nyst Lawyers, thereby giving their representatives clearance to visit him in prison.

Mr Bosscher, formerly a senior partner of one of Australia's biggest criminal practice law firm, Ryan Bosscher, is renowned for his outspoken views on legal reform and has represented high-profile clients including former Brisbane Lion captain, now coach, Michael Voss and top swim coach Scott Volkers.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/third-lawyer-joins-baden-clay-team/story-e6freon6-1226415091838

I wouldn't be too worried about the prosecution I think GBC is going to have his hands busy keeping his legal team in check. There are some BIG egos in there, and together with GBC's personality this will be an interesting mix and not necessarily a smart move.
 
Dr Watson raised the Stillnox defence as it was in the news yesterday. :fence:
I was a bit worried about him raising this idea as a possible defense,
but , the other members here , helped me see that this possible defense , would hold no weight anyway , as the police would have already investigated this possibility and done tests to disprove it.
:fence:

Yes - it was pure hypothesis on my part - and stated as such - after it had been in the papers the previous day. I was just musing as to the possibility of his lawyers trying to use that. But as I said in one of the posts - if they do, then I would take that as a sign of sheer desperation and if I were the prosecution I would be moving in for the "kill"....
 
The files can be obtained with a subpoena from the court. But it's a bit like a journalist with his informant - the subpoena can be refused, but with the downside of spending some jail time for contempt of court. However, I have known of a couple of doctors who HAVE refused to surrender medical records, one of which was because there was stuff in there that related to issues of which the family knew nothing and the patient had not wanted the family to know - ever. That sort of situation really puts the doctor in a very tricky position. The one I referred to was sorted out in the judge's chambers privately.

Most doctors would surrender medical records under a subpoena, especially if the patient was deceased.

The AMA had a long legal battle several years ago and actually won, I seem to recall, in establishing that the doctor's NOTES (not the other records, like test results) actually belong to the doctor, and NOT to the patient. But most of us play the game - sometimes we object, sometimes we ask to submit selective notes and retain those that are not relevant to the case, and sometimes we just give 'em the lot if the pressure is put on. Especially if we have known the patient well.

I have to admit that I find it quite galling sometimes that the courts somehow seem to consider that their time and their rights overrule those of everybody else. But that's a whole other story. Don't get me started on the number of times I've sat in witness rooms wasting days on end, and then either been called for something trivial, or not called at all, then paid the pitiful witness money and sometimes the taxi fare back to the hospital. Sometimes the attitudes of the courts result in a fair bit of friction between the legal and medical professions. Even those supposedly working on the same side of a case :twocents:

Most of the time, however, cooperation wins the day.

RE: "...find it quite galling sometimes that the courts somehow seem to consider that their time and their rights overrule those of everybody else.' etc.

A bit like when we're sitting in Doctor's waiting rooms for hours on end awaiting our appointments!! But I hear what you're saying dear Doctor. I had to give evidence in a Coroner's Inquest and the whole business was SO inconvenient for everyone involved by the time they'd postponed it several times....not to mention the times people turned up to give evidence and were not 'called' at all on that particular day. And people had been flown in from elsewhere to give their evidence, having moved town since the 'death'.

I was the first to give evidence and it was woefully obvious that all the legal persons involved didn't have a curlew about the evidence we were giving. I had to read out my notes (from YEARS before) to the court, and had to translate and decipher all our common medical abbreviations for the court. Of course you can't expect people to have an everyday knowledge of areas they don't work in, but these people are making important decisions about others lives. (However I didn't mind one thing I had to decipher: the lawyer asked 'What does 'TLC given' mean?' to which I replied 'Tender Loving Care'....I was glad for some 'tenderness' in there as it's awful for the families having to go through stuff years later when they should be healing.)

The inadequacy of the whole business was highlighted when the court asked for some respiratory equipment to be brought from the hospital, so someone was called and raced it over......only to have the Coroner put them on the spot and ask how it all worked. This was their 'evidence'.....the poor woman who was merely the 'courier' had to bumble through an unexpected explanation - she did well, but what if she got the explanation all arse about? Yes, this was a country town situation....but sometimes it gets a little farcical. As I repeated (ad nauseum) 'I can't recall', the Coroner (who was actually a Magistrate 'acting up') said, obviously irritated: 'I'm getting a bit tired of hearing 'I can't recall' - and I was the first witness! So I said to him: 'How would you like me to express myself when I can't remember any details?' (Yes, I thought he was a pompous arse!) I asked our lawyer later if I was out of order, but he just smiled and said 'We all knew what you meant!'

This 'Coroner' after a lunch break and seeing that our lawyer wasn't in his seat, asked imperiously 'And WHERE is Mr Suchandsuch?' So I stood from the (peanut) gallery and said 'In the toilet I believe, your Honour' (because I had seen him go in!) Those around me nearly crawled under their seats!! I think I was supposed to refer to him as 'Your Worship' as well, so was politically incorrect on two counts! Yes, we must show our courts their due respect, but people taking themselves a little too seriously? Pfft. The farce ended with the 'person' central to the reason we were all there, not having to get on the stand at all because it might be prejudicial to other professional proceedings yet to come...this seemed so grossly unfair. All of us pulled from lives and jobs (someone had to change their overseas holiday!), sitting around at the whim of the court.....and in the end the bloody person who was the reason we'd all had to go through this thing got to stay in her seat, and it was ultimately an open finding. IMO it should never have got that far, and it was so, so stressful for some of those having to testify. (Not me, as I was the furtherest removed from the death, and had worked two shifts before - needed for 'background' info).

And the point of all my blather? The 'law' whilst necessary, is also full of a lot of argy bargy and manoeuvring and posturing and manipulation.......and a waste of $$$$ and time. But it's all that we have, and I trust that both the QPS and our justice system will do their darndest to get it right.....as will the jury of our peers (I've just got myself OUT of doing jury duty because of 'work commitments'.....however my 'real' reason is that I won't be compensated for my time away from work, and if I should happen upon a case such as GBCs then it might take months! I don't want to receive less than quarter of my income for months on end, do I? Do any of us? Am I a bad citizen?)

However despite my unhappy experience in testifying (which has coloured my opinion of legal proceedings), can I say to Hawkins that you are the epitome of what our law people SHOULD be...you describe everything so clearly and succinctly and clearly espouse the standards and attitudes that our justice system aspires to....and we are very lucky to have you here. As someone else said, you 'ground' us (ie slap us down and tell us how it really is/shouldbe in the kindest, most tactful and respectful way.....love how you 'roll'. Have to admit though....while you were sipping Margeuritas at Noosa with your colleagues, did you have a wry smile to yourself as you tapped out replies to we websleuthers, with your buds thinking you were probably attending to some important legal business? I want you to know that you are doing an important community service by 'educating' us, and it is greatly appreciated!
 
Both Isabellnecessary and DrWatson make some very valid points regarding supposed guilt. Most people make the mistake of looking at "evidence" with a view to finding guilt, but very seldom with a view to finding innocence. Thats only "half sleuthing".

I'm going to begin by analysing one of the core pieces of "evidence", popularly discribed as "dire financial circumstances" with debts supposedly totalling around 1 million dollars. These have been outline by various news outlets, I will use those outlined here:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/gerard-baden-clay-conducting-ongoing-affair-at-time-of-wife-allisons-death-was-in-debt-and-had-inquired-about-her-life-insurance-police-affidavits-lodged-in-court-claim/story-e6frf7l6-1226406037780

1. $275,000 was owed to friends in "gentlemen's agreements.

Assuming that these are as described, gentlemen's agreements, there would be no pressure on the defendant in regard to repayment.

2. $200,000 to a former business partner.

This also most likely falls into a similar category as the above.

3. $335,000 as guarantor on a mortgage.

This is not a debt at all. Its only a guarantee on a mortgage and should there be a default, the property would normally be sold and nobody is out of pocket. The guarantor may lose some money, but rarely all. Again, it is not a debt at all and is there solely to inflate the figures.

4. $45,000 on a credit card.

This is a very small amount of credit for a top real estate business. A pittance.

5. $75,000 to the CEO of Century 21.

Another very small business debt. I once worked for an enterprise much smaller thatn Century 21 who were regularly in debt to the tune of $500,000+. Another pittance for a business like Century 21.

6. $58,000 to his parents.

I doubt very much that there would be any pressure at all for repayment of this debt.

So what do we get from the above? $120,000 of real debt that may have some kind of pressure for repayment. This is a very small amount for any medium sized business.

The "dire financial circumstances" are nothing other than a huge beat up by the QPS to help secure a refusal of bail for GBC. Not unusual, police are like that.

There are some here who seem to thing that the police "only do the right thing". All I can say is: Please wake up to the real world. The police are like a dog on a bone. Once they get a grip they are very one eyed and will do anything they can imagine to get their way. Thats how they really are.

Even one million dollars of real debt is not unusual for a medium sized business and cannot be described as it has been.


If you can sit down and work all this out i'm sure the Judge worked it out too.

But even though the Judge knew he was being tricked by the police he refused bail anyway............And yeah.....compared to what GBC allegedly did, the police are "only doing the right thing" IMO
 
Morning everyone.....I hope your all sitting down .I have something too share with you .
I'll try and be brief.
Long story,cutshort.Iv'e relocated to the northern rivers area,and my partner,has a FIFO,in central QLD.
I've been checking out shuttle buses etc, to no avail,then thought car pooling!
Typed in Lismore to Brisbane and a site came up Pick -up a pal.
Typed in Brisbane,pressed search,then went too search site.
Clicked in box under search and my heart dropped .
The first name that came up, was Allison Baden Clay.I thought I was losing my mind ,I'm not joking..So I checked again.
Who on earth would register that?Obviously someone that has no feelings or morals or a heart.I'm wondering if I can find out who did this .
I am going to e-mail Pick up a Pal,and give them a piece of my mind.I am going to wait an hour or before doing so.Going check out this site a little more.
Someone please tell me ,am I seeing things
I think everyone on this Thread should do so as well.
 
Alison was possibly registered with the site at some point in time and her name hasn't been taken down yet. Probably nothing sinister.
 
Alison was possibly registered with the site at some point in time and her name hasn't been taken down yet. Probably nothing sinister.
I have just calmed down and was thinking maybe she did do school runs etc .Thank you
 
Might be like the three little pigs when they see Big Bad Wolf Superintendent Ainsworth coming. Not sure which one is building the brick house at the end, but it better be good, 'cos I smell pork chops in this fairy tale ending.

Chris Nyst might be involved out of sheer curiosity, although of course he'll do his legal best to defend his third of the client - wonder which one-third he got? Can't imagine which part of his client is the least sought, but if I was him i'd request the brains end, seems to have had less use than lower regions. It is heartening that some of Nyst's deserving past clients the Lacey's (from a family who thought they were above the law) ended up exactly where they belonged, terrified for their life in general population with real hard cases.

Unfortunately my local mention of GBC going into general population was confused, seems as latest Courier Mail mentioned he's out of medical unit and into a 'protected cell'. At least it's the real deal. Maybe he'll be allowed a little mingling ... Would be great to think they will give GBC an opportunity to meet others.

Have you checked out this Bosscher Lawyers?? "in the news"...dated "June 18th, 2012"


http://www.ryanbosscher.com.au/news
 
Both Isabellnecessary and DrWatson make some very valid points regarding supposed guilt. Most people make the mistake of looking at "evidence" with a view to finding guilt, but very seldom with a view to finding innocence. Thats only "half sleuthing".

I'm going to begin by analysing one of the core pieces of "evidence", popularly discribed as "dire financial circumstances" with debts supposedly totalling around 1 million dollars. These have been outline by various news outlets, I will use those outlined here:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/gerard-baden-clay-conducting-ongoing-affair-at-time-of-wife-allisons-death-was-in-debt-and-had-inquired-about-her-life-insurance-police-affidavits-lodged-in-court-claim/story-e6frf7l6-1226406037780

1. $275,000 was owed to friends in "gentlemen's agreements.

Assuming that these are as described, gentlemen's agreements, there would be no pressure on the defendant in regard to repayment.

2. $200,000 to a former business partner.

This also most likely falls into a similar category as the above.

3. $335,000 as guarantor on a mortgage.

This is not a debt at all. Its only a guarantee on a mortgage and should there be a default, the property would normally be sold and nobody is out of pocket. The guarantor may lose some money, but rarely all. Again, it is not a debt at all and is there solely to inflate the figures.

4. $45,000 on a credit card.

This is a very small amount of credit for a top real estate business. A pittance.

5. $75,000 to the CEO of Century 21.

Another very small business debt. I once worked for an enterprise much smaller thatn Century 21 who were regularly in debt to the tune of $500,000+. Another pittance for a business like Century 21.

6. $58,000 to his parents.

I doubt very much that there would be any pressure at all for repayment of this debt.

So what do we get from the above? $120,000 of real debt that may have some kind of pressure for repayment. This is a very small amount for any medium sized business.

The "dire financial circumstances" are nothing other than a huge beat up by the QPS to help secure a refusal of bail for GBC. Not unusual, police are like that.

There are some here who seem to thing that the police "only do the right thing". All I can say is: Please wake up to the real world. The police are like a dog on a bone. Once they get a grip they are very one eyed and will do anything they can imagine to get their way. Thats how they really are.

Even one million dollars of real debt is not unusual for a medium sized business and cannot be described as it has been.

Wow looking at that large debt and somehow bringing it done to 120K by just dismissing most of it might be how Gerard managed to get himself into so much trouble. This is a very strange way of looking at the debts but saying they are not really debts, well what are they?

Just as important as the amount that is owed is Gerards ability to repay it. Looking at how his business has dropped back to a pay by the month serviced office, I would say he is not rolling in income.

When his statement of affairs are lodged you can bet the bottom dollar will not be only 120k owing, it will be much more than what had been released so far.

I think the life insurance would have only bought him some more time and he would have ended up right back where he was in financial hell.
 
So the barrister Peter Davis hasn't had a recent mention. I wonder if he told Gerard where to shove it after the bail hearing?

Possible Mr Davis gave him advice he did not like.... hence the lawyer shopping going on now.

Possible that GBC believes he has nothing to lose if he is responsible for the death of Allison. However, he has reduced his chances of a more lenient sentence by costing the public purse bucketloads of time and resources and more importantly, not showing any remorse nor considering the heartbreak and agony that his children and both the BCs and Dickies are encountering.

Unfortunately, I have seen a similar situation in my own family where someoneone was caught in the spotlights and vehemently protested his innocence and tried to garner support from the weirdest sections of the community. Absolute fear drives these people when they are caught. Our perpetrator showed no remorse and still holds that he is innocent instead of manning up and owning what happened. Still lives in fear as he now has a criminal record and is listed as a sexual offender despite several victims.
 
However we know CN was until recently an FB friend of GBC's and NBC is connected to police commish Bob Atkinson.....so perhaps you might understand why I might sound a little skeptical about a successful conviction here??

I was friends with about 20 pollies on Faebook, I acrually didnt know any of them, its very rare for them to even log on. Its mostly managed by staffers.
 
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