Armchair Psych Profile and JH's Background

[Curious Me]

Plenty of homeless out there with mental illnesses. Thousand and thousands of people without insurance. Tons of senior citizens with eyesight problems trying to understand which darn medicare plan to choose. I don't know what we can expect people having dangerous delusions to do to get help if their last doctor just let them wander off.

 

[CARIIS]

This is actually, important. If Holmes were floridly psychotic, when he rigged his apartment and shot everyone, there could be a valid argument for NGRI.

What are your notions regarding incompetent to stand trial in this case? This is gonna be lang haul!

Second quest: if they only way there are going to be able to "manage" him is by court ordered meds - and as a result of MEDS (can not follow proceeding) could that also translate to incompetent?

 

[February]

Competency to Stand Trial Evaluation Guidelines :

http://www.umassmed.edu/forensictraining/reports/CompetencetoStandTrialReportWritingGuidelines.aspx

 

[gitana1]

Plenty of homeless out there with mental illnesses. Thousand and thousands of people without insurance. Tons of senior citizens with eyesight problems trying to understand which darn medicare plan to choose. I don't know what we can expect people having dangerous delusions to do to get help if their last doctor just let them wander off.

All of that is true. But what do you mean by "their last doctor just let them wander off?" Unless a patient makes threats to harm themselves or others, their treating mental health professional has no power to do anything.

I'm confused why some think such professionals have all this power. To do what? I mean, if people are suggesting that a mental health professional who has a mentally ill patient has a moral obligation to follow up, whether they want it or not, and track them, okay, but how are they to do that? Leave repeated phone messages? Dip into their own incomes and pay for treatment? What exactly are they supposed to do? Go to court and request involuntary commitment for a person who has not made a direct threat of harm?

A psychiatrist is no more powerful or obligated than any doctor. They can make recommendations for treatment, testing, assessments, etc. But, they can't force a patient into treatment. They can't harass a patient who has stopped treatment. They can't give others info about the patient, they can't call the police, they can't stalk the patient, force the patient to return calls or answer letters, etc.

Again, unless the patient makes a direct threat of harm, they are virtually powerless.

 

[February]

gitana1

with few informations we have, you think he is competent to stand trial?

 

[CARIIS]

I know every time I post I get reemed out but I'll do it anyway.

A college is not a country, city, or town. There is no jail. There is no psychiatric unit. It is a place where people pay tons of money to learn and research. People go to a college or university to better their lives, and the college or university strives to help students obtain those goals. Students go to school and drop out of school every day. Why is this different. Because he changed his hair color?

Should colleges and universities start monitoring every students day to day activities? Monitor emails, tweeter, facebook just in case something is going on?

True, he saw a psychiatrist at the university and was brought to the attention of a BETA team. But, what happens when he says he drops out? Do they mount their horses and warn the neighbors?

It isn't as easy as everyone thinks to have an adult committed. You don't just call the cops. For a mental health professional to have someone committed, you have to fill out a form at the court house. The court house forwards that form to a judge. The judge ultimately decides if someone should be confined against their will. It is not as easy as calling 911 and saying he is a threat. Maybe she tried to commit him and a judge said no. We don't know.

Respectfully, several days ago , when I was sharing my stuff regarding unniversity that I felt like they threw him out cause of his behavior, and all this vol withdrawal "stuff" was junk! . Now at that time I was speculating

-- this same theme came back from you:
Students go to school and drop out of school every day. Why is this different. Because he changed his hair color?

Now, today, with the breaking news that he was in fact utterly dangerous

my question to you is why wouldnt your stance change i.e right to privacy etc -

like today we learn that they certainly should have been HIHGLY involved in what he was doingg, when , where etc you know what I mean ! Just asking why the point of view has not moved with Beta stuff leaking (and IMO is was a leak - Personally I do not expect an honest word out of there mouths!-

 

[CARIIS]

Well, according to a couple of popular radio news talk guys in my neck of the woods, the school should have hired a private detective to follow him around!!

They honor there obligations under the legally binding Duty to Warn.

 

[gitana1]

gitana1

with few informations we have, you think he is competent to stand trial?

Yes. He was coherent enough to plan this for months, he was coherent enough to put on full body armor before his massacre so he wouldn't get hurt himself, he was coherent enough to hunt people down in the aisles, to ask for a lawyer and to assert his right to silence and to apparently refrain from making direct threats that could have led to thwarting of his plan. It makes no sense to me that suddenly, after all that, he is incapable of understanding the proceedings and assisting in his own defense.

 

[February]

Yes. He was coherent enough to plan this for months, he was coherent enough to put on full body armor before his massacre so he wouldn't get hurt himself, he was coherent enough to hunt people down in the aisles, to ask for a lawyer and to assert his right to silence and to apparently refrain from making direct threats that could have led to thwarting of his plan. It makes no sense to me that suddenly, after all that, he is incapable of understanding the proceedings and assisting in his own defense.

Thanks i appreciate your input

 

[Curious Me]

I wonder what he said that made his doctor uncomfortable. Could he tell her about buying a gun and not make any direct threats? Could he be totally acting like the joker and not make direct threats?

 

[CARIIS]

Here's the Student Health Plan PDF file from the school - might be helpful
Tells you coverage of their student insurance, etc..

http://www.ucdenver.edu/life/services/student-health/Documents/AMC_StdntHlthBroch.pdf

and they can continue this insurance up to 6 months more eventhough they are no longer students... if JH continued this coverage , had psychiatric abandonement then things are going to be more uglier...


CONTINUATION OF COVERAGE
If a Covered Student is no longer an Eligible Person under
the Policy, he or she has the right to exercise the option
to continue coverage for up to 6 months beginning on the
date coverage would otherwise terminate. When the
Covered Student chooses to exercise this right, his or her
written request and the appropriate premium must be
received by the Company within 31 days following the
date coverage under the Policy terminates. In no event
will this option to continue coverage be extended beyond
the number of months initially requested. Continuation of
coverage will be subject to the terms and conditions of
the Policy in effect on the date the Covered Student
becomes eligible under this option.

IT is getting mixed up the school, BETA, admin wanting to cover it up the real core deal here is if she established a patient/doc relationship his is HER responsibilty, if in her clinical opionion, that he or others are at risk of being harmed it is her obligation to intervene.

If she could not get BETA team that evdently did not function efectivily then all she needed to do was call 911 identify herself , a cop car would have picked James up took him a hospital, he would have been evaluated again and in all liklihood would have met (surpassed probably!) criteria for invol comm for 72 hours.

If he remained a danger on 3 day, a whole bunch of court stuff would began to extend him past the 72 hours.

 

[tambo]

Once he dropped out of school, he would become unemployed, with no source of income, and no medical insurance. How could she possibly arrange any psychiatric care for him? Haven't anyone tried to go to the doctor without medical insurance?

most kids just stay on their parents insurance these days. they are covered until they turn 26. i don't know for sure if he is, but i would guess that he would be. jmo

 

[Liz]

Catching up from a few pages back -

Fenton would be liable and so would the school since she is employed by them and likely covered by their medical malpractice insurance.

However it's probably unlikely that he gave a direct threat and she did nothing as it seems she called the BETA task force together and shared what she knew. If it was a direct threat then other people would have known to have done something if she did not.

BBM

Your analysis is totally in sync with Lis Wiehl's 'expert' opinion, which I posted on Monday, in the last paragraph of this post:

Lis Wiel said that IF it's just negligence of a 'mail carrier', then that's much harder to prove (not sure if she means a mail carrier with UC, or the USPS but I'm surmising UC). Getting back to the Dr, if she knew or should have known what he was about to do, then according to Lis Wiel, both the University and the doctor will be on the hook for that.

It's all came down to, "What did the doctor know?".

 

[songline]

Report: Psychiatrist warned university about Aurora suspect weeks before massacre
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...out-aurora-suspect-weeks-before-massacre?lite

Like I said yesterday:
If I was JH Mom I would sue the therapist and school so bad they would be out of business permanently.
IMHO this was to be treated with urgency in June - 5 weeks passed. As a Mom I would not accept that at all.

But MI has such a stigma that people do not handle it respectfully.
Get a great Lawyer Mrs. Holmes because you will have no sympathy with so many dead, not an easy case.
But as his mom -you should get started on it today. Teaching this specialty there should be far more accountability.



MOO MOO MOO

 

[songline]

IT is getting mixed up the school, BETA, admin wanting to cover it up the real core deal here is if she established a patient/doc relationship his is HER responsibilty, if in her clinical opionion, that he or others are at risk of being harmed it is her obligation to intervene.

If she could not get BETA team that evdently did not function efectivily then all she needed to do was call 911 identify herself , a cop car would have picked James up took him a hospital, he would have been evaluated again and in all liklihood would have met (surpassed probably!) criteria for invol comm for 72 hours.

If he remained a danger on 3 day, a whole bunch of court stuff would began to extend him past the 72 hours.

RIGHT ON :woohoo::woohoo:

she did have the power to commit him to a hospital against his will.

I bet that her records are in up to par, and she will make up everything to fit into some BS Un= accountability.
(there are enough links here that talk about her record keeping)