IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #15

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Ahhh. .. thank you! I was off when I said 4:20. . .I think I was thinking 3:20. BUT. . .3:40 to 3:58. Did anybody else report seeing those bikes before than beside the one 12:20 sighting?

Oops I'm lagging. :) Sorry.

This was what I recall seeing too. The only other "maybe" sighting I read about was the guy who runs the trail, who said he saw the girls on their bikes around 2:30. I honestly don't trust that report much, but it's out there.
 
What if LE is putting more faith in the 2:00pm sighting than they are letting us know but they are keeping that to themselves because it contradicts the time that a witness voluntarily gave to MSM before they had a handle on things. If they reveal that there actually was a 2pm sighting of the girls (not just bikes) then they potentially reveal that they know that the earlier bike sighting may be ficticious and they need someone to believe that everything is cool. Could the interest in the Casey's white van guy be to corroborate the mystery 2pm sighting, making the 12:30 bike citing even less viable?
 
See, the dogs thing makes my head spin. I have to look back but I thought one dogspert said that they could have picked up the scent left from the previous day, and another said they may have picked it up from the belongings?

I just don't know enough about dogs and their complexity to speak to that, but IIRC, there wasn't a definitive answer as to what the dogs' hit actually signified.

But like I said- that subject confuses me!!!

Okay, I'm a verified dog trainer on WS and I have some experience with SAR dogs. I started watching scent work as a teenager when I fox hunted (a sport that is usually blood free and way too fun).

Your ordinary every day house pet with no training at all will tend to track from the oldest scent to the newest scent. It's instinct. Mother Nature didn't let proto-wolves that tracked backwards eat often enough to reproduce. Fifi the Chihuahua will naturally do this between her stints on the couch eating bonbons.

Humans, we are not so bright about scent and tracking. I suspect that dogs are certain we are noseblind and hence mentally impaired. An inexperienced human can manage to train their dog to track backwards. It's a common mistake for newbie tracking handlers to make.

However, the FBI doesn't spend money to fly in newbie handlers to incident scenes. FBI handlers are experienced and have the training logs detailing thousands of hours of training and the results so that they can testify in court if need be.

So I think we can rule out two FBI handler/dog teams making the exact same newbie handler mistake of teaching a dog to track from newest to oldest scent. Sure, dogs make mistakes but the exact same mistake? Nah.

If the newest scent was on the bicycles, the dogs should have cast around and just kept going back to the bicycles, saying with their behaviour "newest scent is right here on these bikes, boss."

As for picking up scent left by belongings in other places. There is lots and lots of research (mostly carried out by the DoD) that supports the idea that dogs are tracking the millions of skin cells that fall off the human body every day. They are called skin rafts because they aren't just skin cells, they also have skin lipids (oil) plus the bacteria and fungus that colonise every normal human being's skin.

It is possible to lay a scent using something that belongs to someone. Ideal would be to use a piece of clothing that had been worn for hours, got good and sweaty. Dragging that item along the ground will leave a trail that a dog will follow. The part of the item that has been in contact with the human being should be dragged on the ground to leave a scent. Carrying the item along off the ground without touching anything will not lay enough of a track for most dogs to work in a committed manner.

Again, the dog will follow a drag from the oldest to the newest scent.

We know where the bikes ended up. If they had been used as drags, the newest scent would, again, be right there on the bicycles.

According to uneducated observers and supported by Sandy Breault's comments about the dogs indicating that the girls' scent was found lakeside by the dogs, I think we can rule out the bikes having been used as drags.

So, I've gotta go with Sandy Breault: the dogs indicated that the girls were at the lake that day.

...can I talk about fox hunting now? <just kidding>
 
But the average cyclist would be riding well under 8:00/mile. I think anyone with a pulse can ride a mile in 8 minutes. For some its easier than others, sure. But I believe even our girls could do it if they weren't dillydallying.

Ease of riding is a bell shaped curve for speed.

Riding very slowly is quite difficult in terms of keeping balance, while riding very fast is difficult because of muscle exertion. Keeping balance also exhausts the muscles since it requires constant compensations to maintain an upright position. Riding at about 8 mph is about the slowest that anyone other than one of those weird bicycle riders can gow and still maintain balance.

So I agree with you.
 
Ease of riding is a bell shaped curve for speed.

Riding very slowly is quite difficult in terms of keeping balance, while riding very fast is difficult because of muscle exertion. Keeping balance also exhausts the muscles since it requires constant compensations to maintain an upright position. Riding at about 8 mph is about the slowest that anyone other than one of those weird bicycle riders can gow and still maintain balance.

So I agree with you.

Someone would have to be going 15 miles per hour to completely vanish at the SE tip of Meyers Lake in 8 minutes. That's 6 minutes at 1.5 miles per hour plus 2 minutes to navigate intersections, ditch bikes and vanish.

Where on the Bell Curve would 4'11" and 145 lbs or BMX bike fall?
 
12:19 to 12:27. . .8 minutes.

I'll let the rest of you speculate why that is significant.

Those 8 minutes do not represent the bike ride, they represent the time on the camera and the time of the phone call to the daughter. The cyclist estimated that he saw two bikes 7 minutes earlier than 12:27.

Lotty's Lounge is right next to the auction shop ... where the girls were last seen. I wonder if police have interviewed everyone that was at the bar that day and the night before. I wonder if anyone came in for a greasy burger and hair of the dog just before noon ... local person familiar with Maiden Lane.
 
If the cctv is slow by 8 minutes and the correct time was 12:19
AND
TG's sighting of the bikes was 12:20
Then either it was not the girls on that video
OR
it was different bikes at the lake.

The same bikes in the video could not end up at the lake in one minute even if driven and dumped.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

That is the situation ... FBI have confirmed that someone that regularly runs the trail has provided a credible time for the bikes on the trail. Whether that is the cyclist in question, who knows. Are the FBI clumsy with their words ... do they report jogger when they mean cyclist? They didn't report paddle boat when they meant pedal boat; a paddle boat is a pedal boat. Paddlers are kayakers and canoeists. Paddlers are not paddle boaters. Words can be confusing.
 
I think you are missing my point.

The girls were caught on cctv at 12:19.

LE and FBI are discussing an eight minute window while watching the cctv tape.

What is the eight minute window from when they were caught on tape? 12:19 to 12:27.

Why would LE be interested in that window of time?. . .the time between when the girls were last seen on tape and the time that someone who says they saw the bikes and made a verifiable phone call. . .after he saw the bikes, went to the bathroom and then called his daughter?

The auction shop, owner of the camera, guy mentioned 8 minutes twice. He said that his camera was 8 minutes slow and that he didn't think that anyone could ride a bike to the SE tip of Meyers Lake in 8 minutes. The latter has been debated here as meaning that investigators believe the crime occurred in 8 minutes.
 
I don't know but I suspect they suspect the same thing that I do which I am not allowed to say. What I can say is that if they suspect the same thing that I do, I am at a loss why they have not acted on it, so I am probably wrong about LE and myself suspecting the same thing; otherwise, we wouldn't all still be talking about this. ;)

There have been a few cases where the evidence was in everyone's face but police failed to act. Paige Birgman is a case that immediately comes to mind. If the evidence is in everyone's face and the law is preventing investigators from acting, then the law needs to be changed.

That's not going to happen ... so ... if this case is solvable and locals more or less know what happened, the FBI can certainly bring people in for questioning even if there is not even evidence for a residential search warrant ... has anyone significant been brought in for questioning?
 
I don't know what kind of vehicle TG has (hopefully not a white van:what:), but maybe he parks his vehicle at Casey's, takes out his bike, rides to the lake, rides back to Casey's, puts his bike back in his vehicle and drives home.

He may do that but I doubt he parks at the Casey's in Evansdale. I think he'd park somewhere further away.

That seems like a lot of effort to go to for a ride that, as defined, would only take about 5 minutes.
 
Okay, I'm a verified dog trainer on WS and I have some experience with SAR dogs. I started watching scent work as a teenager when I fox hunted (a sport that is usually blood free and way too fun).

Your ordinary every day house pet with no training at all will tend to track from the oldest scent to the newest scent. It's instinct. Mother Nature didn't let proto-wolves that tracked backwards eat often enough to reproduce. Fifi the Chihuahua will naturally do this between her stints on the couch eating bonbons.

Humans, we are not so bright about scent and tracking. I suspect that dogs are certain we are noseblind and hence mentally impaired. An inexperienced human can manage to train their dog to track backwards. It's a common mistake for newbie tracking handlers to make.

However, the FBI doesn't spend money to fly in newbie handlers to incident scenes. FBI handlers are experienced and have the training logs detailing thousands of hours of training and the results so that they can testify in court if need be.

So I think we can rule out two FBI handler/dog teams making the exact same newbie handler mistake of teaching a dog to track from newest to oldest scent. Sure, dogs make mistakes but the exact same mistake? Nah.

If the newest scent was on the bicycles, the dogs should have cast around and just kept going back to the bicycles, saying with their behaviour "newest scent is right here on these bikes, boss."

As for picking up scent left by belongings in other places. There is lots and lots of research (mostly carried out by the DoD) that supports the idea that dogs are tracking the millions of skin cells that fall off the human body every day. They are called skin rafts because they aren't just skin cells, they also have skin lipids (oil) plus the bacteria and fungus that colonise every normal human being's skin.

It is possible to lay a scent using something that belongs to someone. Ideal would be to use a piece of clothing that had been worn for hours, got good and sweaty. Dragging that item along the ground will leave a trail that a dog will follow. The part of the item that has been in contact with the human being should be dragged on the ground to leave a scent. Carrying the item along off the ground without touching anything will not lay enough of a track for most dogs to work in a committed manner.

Again, the dog will follow a drag from the oldest to the newest scent.

We know where the bikes ended up. If they had been used as drags, the newest scent would, again, be right there on the bicycles.

According to uneducated observers and supported by Sandy Breault's comments about the dogs indicating that the girls' scent was found lakeside by the dogs, I think we can rule out the bikes having been used as drags.

So, I've gotta go with Sandy Breault: the dogs indicated that the girls were at the lake that day.

...can I talk about fox hunting now? <just kidding>

Do you have the links for the dog tracking info?

I could only find this as the source with the most info. . .
http://www.kesq.com/news/Scent-dogs...irls/-/233092/15573282/-/10l1tt6/-/index.html

Scent dogs used by searchers looking for signs of two missing young girls in Iowa ran around a lake and stopped at the water's edge, the mother of one of the girls said. . . .

The FBI brought two dogs to the area to search Monday night, and the dogs were used again on Tuesday, FBI spokeswoman Sandy Breault said.

The dogs used scent pad samples taken from the girls' shoes and picked up a scent trail, but Breault couldn't say what, if anything, it led investigators to.

Misty Cook-Morrissey, Lyric's mother, told CNN that after smelling the scent pads Monday, the dogs ran around the lake and stopped at the water's edge.

Authorities said Tuesday that they didn't know whether the girls had been at the lake.

"We have their bicycles and we have the purse and that doesn't tell me that they've been there, just that those items are there," Abben said.


The reason I'm asking for a link is because if the dogs track from oldest to newest. . .then why did they stop at the water's edge? The girls weren't in the lake. Could it be that something belonging to the girls went in the lake?
 
I don't know but I suspect that it is AT&T time and not device time. This is important for Mr G timing, but for Mr P time, there was no call to reference.

Edit: trying to remove this thumbs down icon that I accidentally hit while posting on my phone. I certainly didn't mean thumbs down to anyone.

According to the US Cellular service rep I spoke to, all US Cellular phones have the time set by ping and the towers are coordinated with the national time clock.

So Mr P's US Cellular phone should be accurate.
 
The auction shop, owner of the camera, guy mentioned 8 minutes twice. He said that his camera was 8 minutes slow and that he didn't think that anyone could ride a bike to the SE tip of Meyers Lake in 8 minutes. The latter has been debated here as meaning that investigators believe the crime occurred in 8 minutes.

Possibly. . .but to me it means that in an investigation LE has to take what they know. . .and the cctv tape and the verifiable phone call are known facts. . .they are just recorded info. . .a camera or a phone doesn't have a bias or any ulterior motives. . .they are what they are. . .and reconcile those facts with things they are told. . . things that are more subjective.

MOO
 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1067763/

Recreational bike riding. An injury study showed the average speed of children 13 years or younger was 8.9 mph. These children were not in accidents, it was a study done to see what the average mph was for various ages.

Did they define what they meant by "average"?

For instance, it could mean that 50% of all kids ride slower, 50% of all kids ride faster.

Or it could mean that the largest group of children rode at 8.9 miles per hour.

And how did they get those times? For instance, did they set up next to places were lots of kids could be seen riding bicycles and use a radar gun to time them? Or did they set up a course of a known distance and recruit children to ride the course?

Did they do anything to differentiate by motive? For instance, if they were clocking kids in the wild, some of the children could have been stopping every 5 seconds to look at something and others could have been riding with a purpose in mind.

So many questions, so little time to learn. <sigh>
 
12:19 to 12:27. . .8 minutes.

I'll let the rest of you speculate why that is significant.

That doesn't leave any time for TG to ride from where he saw the bikes to a restroom, get off his bike, use the facilities, then call his daughter.
 
Someone would have to be going 15 miles per hour to completely vanish at the SE tip of Meyers Lake in 8 minutes. That's 6 minutes at 1.5 miles per hour plus 2 minutes to navigate intersections, ditch bikes and vanish.

Where on the Bell Curve would 4'11" and 145 lbs or BMX bike fall?

I don't know.

I keep wondering if perhaps Mr P misspoke and what he really meant was that the camera is 8 minutes fast.

That would blow the timeline wide open.

Or Mr TG was mistaken in some way (not lying but making an honest mistake).

Obviously, if we accept Mr P's observation about his camera's time and Mr TG's observation of the bicycles, the thing is impossible. It's impossible even if what Mr TG saw was staged.

I don't see how the bicycles could travel 1.5 miles, via girl power or via vehicle.
 
That is the situation ... FBI have confirmed that someone that regularly runs the trail has provided a credible time for the bikes on the trail. Whether that is the cyclist in question, who knows. Are the FBI clumsy with their words ... do they report jogger when they mean cyclist? They didn't report paddle boat when they meant pedal boat; a paddle boat is a pedal boat. Paddlers are kayakers and canoeists. Paddlers are not paddle boaters. Words can be confusing.

In England, talking to a farmer about raising corn, you're talking about a very different crop than when a US farmer talks about corn.

What is the problem with using the terminology that the local residents agree is correct?
 
After watching the video surveillance many times over. The shadow person next to the house is bugging me. It's there that's for sure, but who is it? I'm sure LE has seen it and checked it out. If I remember right a rso was living next to the Collins, but he wasn't supposed to. Maybe he was watching the girls.
 
It is very common in these cases for LE to be vague. . .even misleading. Take a gander at the Lisa Irwin threads and all the cell phone business. They do this to protect the integrity of the investigation. There are some things that only the perp will know. LE does not want that info to be public knowledge. For this same reason, I don't think we will ever learn how or where the bikes were found by the firefighters. . unless there is a trial.

I believe the girls were caught on cctv at 12:19. .there is no reason to believe that is not true. LE officially says Grandma saw them go by the house around 12:15. It fits perfectly that that is them on tape at 12:19. We do not have any idea what else was caught on tape. . .we only got to see that short little snippet. . .I think that is because there is likely something else of value to the investigation on that tape. Whatever it is that LE is thinking. . .they're not going to show their cards. You really have to take the few things that they do say. . . and their behavior. . .as significant. They are privy to sooo much more info than we are.

MOO

I agree with everything you wrote, and especially regarding the bikes and where they were found. :goodpost:
 
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