IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #19

[foxbluff]

It looks like the media was asked to add a map to the investigators notes to indicate the roads that were mentioned.

Ty, Otto. I read it that way too but when I noticed the little colored icon in upper corner of p.3, I thought the newspaper had added a map that my PC wouldn't open. lol

 

[TxLady2]

08-27-2012, 01:20 PM
SapphireSteel

Trying to walk a fine line here with TOS but here goes -

First of all you can totally disregard all paddleboats, puppies, fishing boys, horses, campers, Craigs Listers, online boyfriends, empty houses, second hand sightings.

The witnesses we know about are not involved apart from being honest citizens.

I believe the girls arrived home that day, shortly after 12, as expected. I believe they went back out again on a "mission" of some sort.

I believe they COULD have been to the lake earlier on this mission, were not successful, and had to go back a second time, and quickly!

I believe they were captured either right at or very near the lake. By a white van.

I believe TG saw the bikes when he said he did, (maybe about 12.23) and Mr C saw the girls at about 12.18 but has been told to be vague.

I believe they were then intercepted by someone they knew with a story, such as, gramma has taken ill, drop your bikes, quick lets get to the hospital.

I believe the girls may well have been still in the wooded area when Mr G biked past.

I believe there was an older male perp and a younger male perp.

I believe that IF the bikes were staged, it was done by the younger perp under instructions, who then left on foot therefore was not noticed.

IF they were staged, the younger perp went so far as to drag items of their clothing around the scene to confuse the scent, as he had been instructed.

I believe the girls were first taken to Elk Run Heights...perhaps a property, perhaps just a meet up with another perp/vehicle.

From there they were taken God knows where.

I believe the original plan was merely to hide them (motives I cannot discuss) but the main instigator has done a back flip and actually murdered them on the day...he had always planned it this way unbeknownst to his co-conspirators, some of whom had no clue this was part of his plan.

I believe the motive is not sexual but money, and/or another benefit, and I believe this part of the plan has worked out as hoped.

This was VERY well planned, and not random.

All my humble opinion and not intended to replace fact.

I could well do a 360 if other evidence comes to light but based on what we have, that is what I believe happened.

Above is my opinion posted back in August - like I said, it hasn't changed much...except perhaps to make me go "hmmm" at the bolded.

What if they WERE on a mission to the lake, and either got lost, or confused as to which end of the lake they were supposed to be at?

What if they got directions from somewhere, and went back a second time...this time, falling right into the perp's hands?

It would account for the sightings in both Lake and Arbutus, and Elmer.

:twocents:

I tried to snip part of this for brevity but my computer wouldn't let me, so...
Please explain the part I bolded.
If the motive was money, then how did that benefit anyone?? How did this person profit by kidnapping and murdering two little girls?? Are you saying you think this was a murder for hire??

 

[peeples]

It might be a teen but the fact there was no useful evidence or sightings of the perp says to me the person(s) was skilled and and knowledgeable about what they were doing. I think transport was used so that rules out anyone under 16 I guess.

Are the families still talking to the media locally?

I believe they spoke at the vigil, but haven't seen any interviews or planned statements from the family lately.

 

[foxbluff]

I clicked on the Sheriff Office release and the maps are shown on the third page.

Ty, watcher. I did scroll down to p.3, but no map opened...perhaps I wasn't holding my mouth just right...

 

[gregjrichards]

I believe they spoke at the vigil, but haven't seen any interviews or planned statements from the family lately.

It must be very difficult coping with the trauma of what they are going through. I am sure they do want to keep talking but unfortunately they have nothing new to say as there are no developments. In addition the media won't report any news if there isn't any. I don't know what can be done to prevent the girls from being forgotten. I know the families, locals and us on here won't forget them.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I have no thoughts about exit routes, but I`m of the opinion that after the girls were kidnapped, they were taken as far away from the scene of the crime as fast as possible.

Me, too, although maybe for reasons different than yours.

I think the kidnapper(s) quickly took the girls as far away as possible, but he/she/they would need to be back in town at some point that day. JMO. I think he/she/they would be noticed if they were not involved in the search for the girls. I do not necessarily mean a family member - it could be a family friend, fellow church member, neighbor, or other person who would be expected to be there for the family. JMO

 

[CHERIE.T]

I think the whole reason this seems like a mystery, and the girls vanished into thin air, because there is no witness, etc, is because they felt comfortable with the perp. No screaming, no kicking fighting, just a trust that they were with a nice person. They trusted this guy who ever he is. I think he is local and came across the girls many times on their bike rides.

I think so too cinder.

IMOO the girls passed the person in town or the park practically every day.

The perp IMOO was known to the girls and he/she likely knew their names.

IMOO the perp said something as simple as,
Hi girls, it's hot today hu? Come on over to my truck (van whatever). I have some icey cold drinks in there.

(This has been speculated here before.)

I think it was easy and quiet.

 

[nikb]

I've been following along on this one, but holding my tongue, because I have my own theories on what happened to the girls, but being victim friendly....well, I can't post them here, because most of the people I suspect are still under the "victim" umbrella.

That said, the one thing I don't believe is that the girls are in a vehicle that was ditched somewhere. Anyone that is going to kill two little girls is going to be desperate to distance themselves from that crime. They are not going to leave the bodies in a vehicle that can presumably be traced back to them. If it was a borrowed vehicle, it would have already presumably been reported stolen, therefore, it stands to reason that the vehicle is owned either by the perp or by close family/friend of the perp. I find it highly unlikely that a perp that managed to get the girls, get them out of the area, stage the bikes, not leave a witness, and manage to keep themselves and any real sign of the girls hidden for this long would take the chance of blowing the whole thing by leaving bodies in a vehicle that could be traced back to him.

Just my two cents.

Thanks for sharing your theory. I'm still trying to narrow it down in my mind. I just wanted to add - BBM - I strongly think it's "him, her, or them" IMO. I could be wrong of course. The only thing I don't understand with your theory is motive - why abduct (and possibly kill) these two little girls? I know you may not be able to reply since you're limited in what you can say.

 

[CHERIE.T]

With the latest information about the girls being seen at Gilbert and Elmer between 12:30 and 1:00, at the entrance to the parking lot at Meyers Lake, it seems that the girls rode their bikes to the lake. Could someone have suggested that they could have a boat ride if they rode their bikes and met at the drainage pipe area? Could they have ridden their bikes there? Could they have parked their bikes, gone through the gate, set down the purse and waited? Could someone have then driven down Arbutus leading to Maiden Lane and met them ... coerced them into the treed area and poof?

If this happened, there is no need for a van or truck of any type. A car would work just fine.

Otto, Do you think if this indeed happened that the person prearranged the meeting?
Do you think this is the person that LE thinks was in the lake that day?
What happened after the boat ride if this is right?
Kidnapping? Going across state lines?
Only my thoughts and ?s/

 

[CHERIE.T]

Ty, watcher. I did scroll down to p.3, but no map opened...perhaps I wasn't holding my mouth just right...

your MOUTH? :what::floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Thanks for the reply.

Where are you getting these... uh...facts... that you call "most likely"? LE has not said that it is likely the perp had a white van, or that it was stolen. So this theory of yours is mostly just speculation, not based on facts.

I don't think we can establish a motive until we know who did this. We certainly can't rule out that it is non-sexual.

Sorry, but the only fact relevant to this case that I can see supporting your theory is that the girls are missing and "most likely" kidnapped.

:waitasec:

^^^Here's what you said I said, and here's what I actually said (snb):

Originally Posted by SapphireSteel

The submerged vehicle thing is entirely a guess based on next to nothing except the general pattern and planning of this crime.

My thought processes are -

In my humble opinion.

Again, all opinion.


I've called them opinion. They are in no way intended to replace facts and I apologise if I somehow misled you. I could well be entirely wrong and change my mind completely tomorrow.

:blush:

The source is between my ears ONLY.

:seeya:

:hills:

 

[Sere-nity]

I think the vehicle has been involved in a traffic accident. An innocent looking way to get rid of a vehicle without suspicion.

ALL IMO only

 

[nikb]

It just occurred to me after reading your post, that someone could have pretended to use (I think use is a better word than in) a wheelchair and asked the girls for help to get in or out of vehicule..
O/t, but once when I was at a club, a fellow on the dance floor using a wheelchair, asked me to dance. So I tried to gracefully move slowly, gently on the floor with him for a song or two, when he jumped up ( suddenly very able-bodied) - and laughing swung me roughly around like a ragdoll to the great amusement of the gathered crowd...

OT but as someone who had to use a wheelchair for most of my childhood (age 10 through about 17) and another year or so in my late 20s, stories like this make me so sick and sad. IMO it's often the reason you get able-bodied people ticked off when people using wheelchairs are brought to the "front" of a line - ignoring the fact that they're (for example) going up flights of stairs to get to "wherever" while the person using the wheelchair can't. Of course, there are people who take advantage of this to "get to the front of the line" (or as a way to pick up on someone in a club for that matter). It ends up hurting anyone who really does need the help.

You would not believe the number of people who thought I was "faking it." I got to where I'd just shake my head instead of bursting out crying and saying "you really think I chose this?!?"

Sorry... rant over and dotr I hope you know that wasn't a rant directed at you (the faker...well.. I won't go there, way too OT.).

Back on topic - I do think it's possible that some sicko decided to fake an injury, illness, wheelchair usage, etc. to get the girls' attention. I think there are lots of ways, but this one might work pretty well. They help him or her load a wheelchair into a van... the person asks them to get in and help with the seatbelt, or strapping in a wheelchair, or something like that. And then.... ?

 

[nikb]

I tried to snip part of this for brevity but my computer wouldn't let me, so...
Please explain the part I bolded.
If the motive was money, then how did that benefit anyone?? How did this person profit by kidnapping and murdering two little girls?? Are you saying you think this was a murder for hire??

Sorry, I'm a little behind and of course I'm not the original poster, but I just wanted to say I don't think we know that the girls have been killed. Only abducted. (unless I"m so far behind new news came out today)

 

[otto]

I guess I'm thinking about the sad possibilities of places to hide bodies after the girls were taken.

Since there appears to be some planning and organization in the kidnapping, I suspect that they will not be easy to locate. I suspect that they were taken to a pre-selected secluded location.

 

[otto]

Ty, Otto. I read it that way too but when I noticed the little colored icon in upper corner of p.3, I thought the newspaper had added a map that my PC wouldn't open. lol

There is a map there. It has a yellow line all along Gilbert and another one all along Arbutus. There`s nothing at Elmer.

 

[nikb]

Sorry to quote myself - wanted to add a quick note.

Back on topic - I do think it's possible that some sicko decided to fake an injury, illness, wheelchair usage, etc. to get the girls' attention. I think there are lots of ways, but this one might work pretty well. They help him or her load a wheelchair into a van... the person asks them to get in and help with the seatbelt, or strapping in a wheelchair, or something like that. And then.... ?

I realized my post came across that someone with some sort of actual physical impairment couldn't be responsible for an abduction, and I don't believe that. I think it'd be pretty rare and I also don't think it's what happened here, but certainly a person legitimately in a wheelchair or whatever could abduct kids similar to what I (and others) have described a faker doing above.

 

[otto]

I tried to snip part of this for brevity but my computer wouldn't let me, so...
Please explain the part I bolded.
If the motive was money, then how did that benefit anyone?? How did this person profit by kidnapping and murdering two little girls?? Are you saying you think this was a murder for hire??

These families do not appear to be so wealthy that someone would kidnap their children to extort money, so it`s obvious to me that this kidnapping had nothing to do with money.

Furthermore, there has been no demand from kidnappers for money.

 

[otto]

Me, too, although maybe for reasons different than yours.

I think the kidnapper(s) quickly took the girls as far away as possible, but he/she/they would need to be back in town at some point that day. JMO. I think he/she/they would be noticed if they were not involved in the search for the girls. I do not necessarily mean a family member - it could be a family friend, fellow church member, neighbor, or other person who would be expected to be there for the family. JMO

Why would a kidnapper need to back in Evansdale later in the day. It seems to me that the person that did this is familiar with the area, but there`s no reason to assume that this person lives in Evansdale. I see no reason to assume that the person that did this has any connection to the family. More than 1000 people searched on the two weekends after the kidnapping ... one more or less person wouldn`t exactly be noticed.

 

[Marilynilpa]

OT but as someone who had to use a wheelchair for most of my childhood (age 10 through about 17) and another year or so in my late 20s, stories like this make me so sick and sad. IMO it's often the reason you get able-bodied people ticked off when people using wheelchairs are brought to the "front" of a line - ignoring the fact that they're (for example) going up flights of stairs to get to "wherever" while the person using the wheelchair can't. Of course, there are people who take advantage of this to "get to the front of the line" (or as a way to pick up on someone in a club for that matter). It ends up hurting anyone who really does need the help.

You would not believe the number of people who thought I was "faking it." I got to where I'd just shake my head instead of bursting out crying and saying "you really think I chose this?!?"

Sorry... rant over and dotr I hope you know that wasn't a rant directed at you (the faker...well.. I won't go there, way too OT.).

Back on topic - I do think it's possible that some sicko decided to fake an injury, illness, wheelchair usage, etc. to get the girls' attention. I think there are lots of ways, but this one might work pretty well. They help him or her load a wheelchair into a van... the person asks them to get in and help with the seatbelt, or strapping in a wheelchair, or something like that. And then.... ?

The fake injury worked well for Ted Bundy, unfortunately, so I don't see why a wheelchair wouldn't work equally well.

Of course, to my knowledge, Bundy never abducted two girls at one time.