NC - MacDonald family murders at Fort Bragg, 1970 - Jeffrey MacDonald innocent?

[hollyjokers]

Pretty good article listing the new evidence that is being introduced. Interesting that he doesn't want the Hilton bath mat or pajama top retested. If there were a smoking gun in this case, I'd say those items would be on the top of my list. Why aren't the weapons being tested for touch DNA?

http://www.wral.com/news/local/wral_investigates/story/11345217/

 

[wonders]

I will say the pictures are a little misleading: his photos were not taken until August 1974. Of course, his wounds look like nothing compared to the others.

With all due respect hollyjokers, IMO it dosen't matter if they were taken yesterday. His wounds were absolutely nothing compared to Collette's and the childrens. If it had been intruders they would have done the overkill on him first.

 

[Madeleine74]

Thank you ERRN1313. Horrible, just horrible. IMO, no one would do this kind of overkill murder on a woman and children and leave JM in the minor condition he was. He was a Dr, he knew he would be saved before he could die. Collette fought for her life as did one of the girls (can't remember which one). He's guilty as sin and is exactly where he belongs and should have been given the DP and that should have been carried out years ago.
I say go ahead and give this monster another trial, use the hearsay and the jury will wonder why this wasn't brought up years ago when all those people were still alive. Further more with today's technolgy they can do an animated video to show exactly what he did to them and prove it didn't happen the way he said it did. The result will be the same GUILTY. Do you know if he was also charged with the unborn childs death?

I want to see the pics but won't because I'm squeamish and am afraid I'll have nightmares so I'm not clicking on that site. Those of you who are braver have my admiration.

Makes you wonder why "hippies" hate little toddlers and/or the female gender, doesn't it?

No, MacDonald was not charged for killing his unborn son. There was no law on the books recognizing a fetus as a person in a murder in 1970.

For those who think a band of "hippies" did this crime, you still have to explain this piece of physical evidence that even the defense doesn't counter:

Just how did these drugged out hippies find the ice pick in the apartment (it was kept on top of the fridge), get JM's pajama top off of him intact, get Collette to bleed all over it first, then get the pocket ripped off of it in the master bedroom, then put the pajama top on Collette's chest, and then stab her through JM's pajama top 21 times, leaving 42 perfect cylindrical holes with no fraying? Which "drug crazed hippy" did that? Remember, MacDonald said he was on the couch in the living room with his pajama top somehow wrapped around his hands, warding off blows from 4 attackers. That pajama evidence doesn't go away so it has to be explained using laws of physics on planet earth. Oh, and while you're at it, you also have to explain how JM's torn pajama fibers got on and in the beds of both daughters that night if his pajama top was wrapped around his hands or laying on top of his wife's dead body in the master bedroom.

 

[Madeleine74]

Pretty good article listing the new evidence that is being introduced. Interesting that he doesn't want the Hilton bath mat or pajama top retested. If there were a smoking gun in this case, I'd say those items would be on the top of my list. Why aren't the weapons being tested for touch DNA?

http://www.wral.com/news/local/wral_investigates/story/11345217/

Funny how he doesn't want the 2 items to be retested that are most incriminating to him. Hmmmm....

 

[wonders]

I want to see the pics but won't because I'm squeamish and am afraid I'll have nightmares so I'm not clicking on that site. Those of you who are braver have my admiration.

Makes you wonder why "hippies" hate little toddlers and/or the female gender, doesn't it?

No, MacDonald was not charged for killing his unborn son. There was no law on the books recognizing a fetus as a person in a murder in 1970.

For those who think a band of "hippies" did this crime, you still have to explain this piece of physical evidence that even the defense doesn't counter:

Just how did these drugged out hippies find the ice pick in the apartment (it was kept on top of the fridge), get JM's pajama top off of him intact, get Collette to bleed all over it first, then get the pocket ripped off of it in the master bedroom, then put the pajama top on Collette's chest, and then stab her through JM's pajama top 21 times, leaving 42 perfect cylindrical holes with no fraying? Which "drug crazed hippy" did that? Remember, MacDonald said he was on the couch in the living room with his pajama top somehow wrapped around his hands, warding off blows from 4 attackers. That pajama evidence doesn't go away so it has to be explained using laws of physics on planet earth. Oh, and while you're at it, you also have to explain how JM's torn pajama fibers got on and in the beds of both daughters that night if his pajama top was wrapped around his hands or laying on top of his wife's dead body in the master bedroom.

It's ok Madeleine74 if you can't look at the photo's. Even without looking at them you have a great grasp on who did it.
Thank you for answering my question. I didn't think it was on the books at that time. If he wants a new trial now, I wonder if they can charge him with it now. Probably not. One can have dreams. Right?

 

[Madeleine74]

If he wants a new trial now, I wonder if they can charge him with it now. Probably not. One can have dreams. Right?

Only the laws in existence at the time of the crime would be applicable. He's clearly not going anywhere. :jail:

It wouldn't bother me if he got a new trial. If he has real evidence to show, then I say, "bring it!" None of the original evidence that got him convicted is going to change. None of the lies he told can be changed. His stories of how the attack went down (and I think he told a couple different ones) still don't match the crime scene. That pajama top evidence will nail him every time.

 

[LinasK]

Only the laws in existence at the time of the crime would be applicable. He's clearly not going anywhere. :jail:

It wouldn't bother me if he got a new trial. If he has real evidence to show, then I say, "bring it!" None of the original evidence that got him convicted is going to change. None of the lies he told can be changed. His stories of how the attack went down (and I think he told a couple different ones) still don't match the crime scene. That pajama top evidence will nail him every time.

Yeah, except for the cost of the new trial- so why bother???

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Thank you ERRN1313. Horrible, just horrible. IMO, no one would do this kind of overkill murder on a woman and children and leave JM in the minor condition he was. He was a Dr, he knew he would be saved before he could die. Collette fought for her life as did one of the girls (can't remember which one). He's guilty as sin and is exactly where he belongs and should have been given the DP and that should have been carried out years ago.
I say go ahead and give this monster another trial, use the hearsay and the jury will wonder why this wasn't brought up years ago when all those people were still alive. Further more with today's technolgy they can do an animated video to show exactly what he did to them and prove it didn't happen the way he said it did. The result will be the same GUILTY. Do you know if he was also charged with the unborn childs death?

But what bothers me is it seems his injuries have been greatly downplayed, imo. Since there was never a televised trial I have always just assumed the only injury he had was the one to his chest that collapsed his lung.

But I have read countless sites in the past three days......both pro-prosecution and pro-defense sites trying to get an unbiased view of this case. It was not as I assumed it to be all these decades. He was unconscious when found and they had to do mouth to mouth rescessitation on him before transporting him. I read the list of his injuries and they certainly didnt seem minor to me. And I cant help question why a doctor would even stab himself in an area that could collapse a lung when he could have done it in many other less vital areas of his body. He had wounds that the doctor said was 'gaping' and one of the knife wounds went in one side of his bicep and came out the other side.

The evidence found under Colette's fingernails also bothers me greatly. Somehow it has been conveniently lost. And MacDonald had no scratches anywhere on his body.

I really had no doubt he was guilty. Maybe I just assumed back then if the Prosecution says someone is guilty and the jury agreed it was the right verdict. Back then when this happened I was busy raising our children and working. The internet was not available like it is today where so much more can be learned about this case and others. But after reading endlessly for three days about this case I now have my doubts. Not that he is innocent but a possibility that he may be. It reminds me of all the times innocent people have been incarcerated for a crime they did not commit. Those DAs and juries were just as sure of those defendants guilt as the jury was in MacDonald's case.

So from a selfish point of view I wish he would be granted a new trial so that the case could be done during a time when forensic evidence and expert witnesses are so much more advanced in knowledge and technology than they were when the initial trial was held.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Pretty good article listing the new evidence that is being introduced. Interesting that he doesn't want the Hilton bath mat or pajama top retested. If there were a smoking gun in this case, I'd say those items would be on the top of my list. Why aren't the weapons being tested for touch DNA?

http://www.wral.com/news/local/wral_investigates/story/11345217/

Colette MacDonald, who was 5 months pregnant with a baby boy, was hit repeatedly in the head with a piece of wood and suffered 16 knife wounds – seven in her chest and nine in her neck – and 21 icepick wounds, according to the medical examiner. The brutal beating left her with two punctured lungs and two broken forearms, the latter of which the medical examiner described as defensive wounds.

Why would he need to use three different weapons on one small pregnant woman?

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Also I see from the above link the Innocence Project is going to help pay for any further testing.

Christine Mumma, executive director of the North Carolina Center on Actual Innocence, is one of the attorneys working on MacDonald's fight for a new trial. The center has helped exonerate three people since its inception, including Greg Taylor, who spent 17 years in prison for a murder he didn’t commit.

The North Carolina Center on Actual Innocence and The Innocence Project have offered to pay the costs associated with any further DNA testing and for identifying an independent lab to conduct the testing in MacDonald's case. Their request is expected to be addressed by the courts after the September hearing.

 

[trigger]

Colette MacDonald, who was 5 months pregnant with a baby boy, was hit repeatedly in the head with a piece of wood and suffered 16 knife wounds – seven in her chest and nine in her neck – and 21 icepick wounds, according to the medical examiner. The brutal beating left her with two punctured lungs and two broken forearms, the latter of which the medical examiner described as defensive wounds.

Why would he need to use three different weapons on one small pregnant woman?

IMO

IDK maybe rage and being high on drugs and lack of sleep.

 

[Madeleine74]

The theory is MacDonald, who admitted to taking amphetamines to lose weight (he claimed to have lost 12 to 15 lbs in 3 weeks) and to stay awake to work some doubleshifts got into a fight with his wife and it escalated. He may have hit his eldest daughter by mistake as he was swinging the club at his wife in the MBR and she walked in upon hearing the fighting.

Then, as the theory goes, he knew he had mortally wounded his wife and daughter and decided to claim it was a band of hippies, just like the article he read in Esquire Magazine about the Manson murders 6 months before. This magazine was found in the livingroom. To be able to claim multiple assailants he thought each victim needed to have wounds from different weapons. He also made the decision then to murder his youngest child to complete the story he had decided--he got first degree murder for her killing, and second degree murder for his wife's and oldest child's murders.

That's one of the ways they got him -- he was still wearing the pajama top when he went into each child's room and stabbed them with a knife and an ice pick. Fibers from his pajamas were found in each girl's room, under his wife's body, under the writing of "PIG" on the headboard in the master bedroom.

 

[wonders]

Only the laws in existence at the time of the crime would be applicable. He's clearly not going anywhere. :jail:

It wouldn't bother me if he got a new trial. If he has real evidence to show, then I say, "bring it!" None of the original evidence that got him convicted is going to change. None of the lies he told can be changed. His stories of how the attack went down (and I think he told a couple different ones) still don't match the crime scene. That pajama top evidence will nail him every time.

I'm with you girl. The results are going to be the same. Guilty as charged and that will be that.

 

[wonders]

Yeah, except for the cost of the new trial- so why bother???

I'm not thrilled with that either Linask but it will put an end to it. The guilty verdict isn't going to change. But we don't know if he will get a new trial the Judge could put a giant :denied: stamp on it. I think we are just trying to prepare ourselves in the event he does get a new trial.

 

[wonders]

Colette MacDonald, who was 5 months pregnant with a baby boy, was hit repeatedly in the head with a piece of wood and suffered 16 knife wounds – seven in her chest and nine in her neck – and 21 icepick wounds, according to the medical examiner. The brutal beating left her with two punctured lungs and two broken forearms, the latter of which the medical examiner described as defensive wounds.

Why would he need to use three different weapons on one small pregnant woman?

IMO

Hi oceanblueeyes,
The only way I know how to answer your questions is to say JM's injuries cannot even come close to the injuries that took the lives of his wife, unborn baby boy and his two girls.
Why so many weapons? Well, in my opinion he was trying to cover up a murder he commited. He was on drugs for weight loss and staying awake I believe. As we know today it's called drug rage I believe.
I hope this helps you out some.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

IDK maybe rage and being high on drugs and lack of sleep.

I dont know trigger. I just cant make sense of it and from what I have read they never knew what his motive was for doing this.

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Hi oceanblueeyes,
The only way I know how to answer your questions is to say JM's injuries cannot even come close to the injuries that took the lives of his wife, unborn baby boy and his two girls.
Why so many weapons? Well, in my opinion he was trying to cover up a murder he commited. He was on drugs for weight loss and staying awake I believe. As we know today it's called drug rage I believe.
I hope this helps you out some.

Thanks. But he still didnt have minor injuries as it has been said.

Was that ever verified? The amount of drugs he was taking? The reason I ask I dont think I have ever heard of a case where someone was taking a diet drug and it turned them into a mass murderer.

Do you know of such a case because millions have taken diet drugs even back then.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I'm not thrilled with that either Linask but it will put an end to it. The guilty verdict isn't going to change. But we don't know if he will get a new trial the Judge could put a giant :denied: stamp on it. I think we are just trying to prepare ourselves in the event he does get a new trial.

I really dont see him getting a new trial even if it is warranted. This case is a hot potato for any court imo. You have a man that has been locked up for decades and it is one of the most famous murder trials in modern history. The Judge is not going to take a chance that in a new trial he could be found NG. The Judge knows if that happens JM would have a valid lawsuit that would probably break the bank.

JM told his wife that he was at peace no matter how the hearing winds up and that all he wanted was to get the evidence tested that hasnt been lost and a chance for some of the facts to come out that didnt in the trial.

I dont even think he expects a new trial and he will never go before the parole board. He has been eligible since 1991 but does not appear. His reasoning he says is he is never going to admit to something that he did not do.

So he will keep teaching classes in prison and die there.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The theory is MacDonald, who admitted to taking amphetamines to lose weight (he claimed to have lost 12 to 15 lbs in 3 weeks) and to stay awake to work some doubleshifts got into a fight with his wife and it escalated. He may have hit his eldest daughter by mistake as he was swinging the club at his wife in the MBR and she walked in upon hearing the fighting.

Then, as the theory goes, he knew he had mortally wounded his wife and daughter and decided to claim it was a band of hippies, just like the article he read in Esquire Magazine about the Manson murders 6 months before. This magazine was found in the livingroom. To be able to claim multiple assailants he thought each victim needed to have wounds from different weapons. He also made the decision then to murder his youngest child to complete the story he had decided--he got first degree murder for her killing, and second degree murder for his wife's and oldest child's murders.

That's one of the ways they got him -- he was still wearing the pajama top when he went into each child's room and stabbed them with a knife and an ice pick. Fibers from his pajamas were found in each girl's room, under his wife's body, under the writing of "PIG" on the headboard in the master bedroom.

If that was his intention he could have just used a different weapon on each victim. Not four different weapons on Colette and two weapons on the children.

 

[hollyjokers]

From Fatal Vision:

The doctor on duty in the emergency room made a quick examination and noted three injuries in addition to the chest wound: a bruise on the left side of the forehead, the skin of which was not broken; and superficial stab wounds of the abdomen and upper left arm. None of MacDonald's wounds required stitching.
His blood pressure was 120 over 70, his pulse 78, respiration rate 26, and temperature 99-all considered normal vital signs.
The second doctor to examine MacDonald was the surgical resident on duty, Benjamin Klein. He observed the same injuries that the first doctor had, and in addition noted, on the left side of the chest, "four puncture type wounds along a linear track, spaced rather evenly, about two to three millimeters apart."
The military policeman who had given MacDonald mouth-to-mouth resuscitation had observed the same marks. To him, they appeared to be scratches, "like where someone had dug their nails into him." - Joe McGinniss

Okay, here is the part about his ice pick wound:

The Type B blood of Jeffrey MacDonald was found in significant quantity in only two locations within the apartment: on the kitchen floor in front of the cabinet that contained the box of rubber gloves, and on the right side of the bathroom sink, in a pattern suggesting it might have dripped from the right side of the chest of a person who had stood in front of the sink while making a neat, clean incision between two ribs-an incision, perhaps, only one centimeter long, and just deep enough to puncture a lung without doing any other damage.