GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #4

[nikb]

What had JH planned to do with his backpack full of electronics and a gun when he was scheduled for work at 6am that fateful morning? Did he need all those electronics for work? Did he regularly carry a gun? Did he regularly call Starbucks at 6:08 in the morning when he should have already been at work, and about 45 minutes before running into WH to ask for a ride? Why didn’t he call WH’s home or cell phone? Oh right – because he didn’t immediately confess to seeing WH that morning - the “robbers” got him before 6am and he was MIA for the rest of the day.

I say thoroughly planned. JMVHO.

Sorry, I might've missed it, but where did you see that he was scheduled for work at 6am that day?

Did CH call in sick, WH thought about calling in sick because she wasn't feeling well either, and then now I'm wondering if JH called in sick too? Or did JH call in "robbed"? Or not call in at all? I actually don't recall reading much about his work situation that day, I'm just wondering if you have more info. If he called in an hour or more before she was abducted, IMO it seems even more planned than I initially thought.

 

[nikb]

Yes I thought the exact bi polar disorder Holt might have...or even the Personality Disorder....

Since our brother's completely schizo-affective, that is hearing things, telling peple he's Attorney General, or a billionaire ( yeah, that's true).....Bi Polar, the experts told our family has more subtle manic/depressive stages, heightened exuberance, there's a more normalcy about bi polar sufferers than schizo's....I think holt's bi polar, which you wonder if this is true, his attorney by knowing this, claim Not Guilty by Reason Of Insanity...

BBM, this is what scares the heck out of me about these accused/convicted killers (this case and others) possibly having mental illnesses. Millions of people suffer from a variety of mental illnesses, but most of them don't go out and murder others! I've always thought that whole plea makes no sense. If you're out murdering people IMO, chances are you've got something insane going on in your head. It still doesn't make it OK to go kill someone. IMO.

 

[rmarie3]

Sorry, I might've missed it, but where did you see that he was scheduled for work at 6am that day?

Did CH call in sick, WH thought about calling in sick because she wasn't feeling well either, and then now I'm wondering if JH called in sick too? Or did JH call in "robbed"? Or not call in at all? I actually don't recall reading much about his work situation that day, I'm just wondering if you have more info. If he called in an hour or more before she was abducted, IMO it seems even more planned than I initially thought.

It is all detailed in the 44 page search warrant affidavit. Kind of a gruesome read, but if you haven't read it - it is full of details and answers a ton of questions.

http://www.oregonlive.com/gresham/index.ssf/2012/10/whitney_heichel_case_suspected.html

And yes it says that JH was scheduled to work that day at 6am and didn't show up. (His father works there and had been trying to contact him to find out why) Also - from what I remember CH works at a nearby apt complex and Tues was his scheduled day off (he works weekends from the sound of WH facebook post)

 

[basilcat]

a little off topic .... but Tenlyn I do love your avatar .... such a cool little fella

 

[nikb]

His sloppy clean up of the vehicle makes me think he's just a guy. Wipe off the seats and call it good. Not to pick on guys, but most of them aren't the most meticulous cleaners. Either he sucks at cleaning and thought he did a good job. OR he just wanted the bulk of the blood off the seats so it wouldn't be so obvious to someone walking by the vehicle.

While I appreciate what you're saying, especially having just finished picking up random dishes laying around the house for no apparent reason , IMO some guys are pretty meticulous about cleaning their vehicles. I know anytime my husband says he wants to wash the car it's going to be an all day project involving scrubbing, dusting, and polishing. We have a couple of neighbors who are the same way. I don't know if JH is like this, but I'm thinking maybe so since he reportedly had his motorcycle on the porch to keep it out of the rain?

I'm thinking more along the lines of your second idea, make it not too terribly obvious to anyone walking or driving by. I also feel like he must've been pretty rushed, whether he was just feeling rushed out of fear, or something caused him to speed up whatever plan he might've had.

 

[nikb]

It is all detailed in the 44 page search warrant affidavit. Kind of a gruesome read, but if you haven't read it - it is full of details and answers a ton of questions.

http://www.oregonlive.com/gresham/index.ssf/2012/10/whitney_heichel_case_suspected.html

And yes it says that JH was scheduled to work that day at 6am and didn't show up. (His father works there and had been trying to contact him to find out why) Also - from what I remember CH works at a nearby apt complex and Tues was his scheduled day off (he works weekends from the sound of WH facebook post)

Oh ok, thank you! I've gotten through quite a bit of it, but it turned my stomach so bad I haven't made it through the whole thing. I should probably suck it up and read the rest, because I know you're right about it answering tons of questions.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Hmm good question. Maybe he thought the light pole would obscure the camera view? Or maybe he didn't even clue into the fact that it was there, since it was day time? Sounds a little crazy I know but we're talking about someone who thought dropping his gun off outside of the police department was a good idea so who knows.

Thanks for your thoughts, nikb. It is a puzzle. I think I also read in the previous 5-6 pages (just now catching up) that Neptune or another poster mentioned the "utility pole was yellow"--I'm thinking a bright yellow pole would be pretty hard to miss seeing in the rear view mirror as he backed up.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Oh ok, thank you! I've gotten through quite a bit of it, but it turned my stomach so bad I haven't made it through the whole thing. I should probably suck it up and read the rest, because I know you're right about it answering tons of questions.

I'm with you on this, nikb. I think I'll be content to ask questions, instead. I don't like reading the grisly details.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Hmm good question. Maybe he thought the light pole would obscure the camera view? Or maybe he didn't even clue into the fact that it was there, since it was day time? Sounds a little crazy I know but we're talking about someone who thought dropping his gun off outside of the police department was a good idea so who knows.

In thinking more about this...the light pole was behind the bushes, towards the highway, with the car parked back end facing the bushes, front end pointing towards Walmart. It would not have obstructed the camera views of the car in any way as the cameras were on the opposite side of the parking lot (on the Walmart bldg).

 

[recyclops]

BBM, this is what scares the heck out of me about these accused/convicted killers (this case and others) possibly having mental illnesses. Millions of people suffer from a variety of mental illnesses, but most of them don't go out and murder others! I've always thought that whole plea makes no sense. If you're out murdering people IMO, chances are you've got something insane going on in your head. It still doesn't make it OK to go kill someone. IMO.

It's true, tons of people with mental illness, in fact the majority, never commit a crime. That's what inclines me to think that he has something developmental wrong or perhaps a brain injury. Something that would affect judgement and provoke violent behavior. Over history many serial killers(just an example, no proof JH is a serial killer of course) have had brain injury or damage. just speculation on my part.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Is it correct that there is no charge of rape?
Was he an intended rapist? Are there many cases where an intended violator solely demands a _ _?
If an intended rapist and he was thwarted due to a biting action (as someone suggested up-thread), I hope the bite removed parts!

Note: I realize we may not know all the details about the crime but if there was a rape, wouldn’t the charges have already been leveled? TIA

It's my impression that it was only fellatio. But then, I'm not reading the pdf, and hopefully someone will correct me on that if I'm wrong.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

..<snipped> ...but I do know you couldn't be any more careless about the "cleanup" he attempted. He left the shell casings in the SUV along with a ton of other evidence including copious amounts of blood spots and pooling and brain spatter along with skull fragments and clumps of hair. He left the front license plate at a place near the body which ultimately led to them finding it. He could have burned the empty boxes of ammo he left in a dumpster, burned the cloth and garments stained with blood he threw in the Walmart dumpster, gotten rid of the guns way before the time he scheduled to go to the police station for another interview, NOT brought his laptop and external drives with illegal material on it with him to the station, and this list goes on...He just seems all around extremely careless when scattering the evidence all over the place.

It's almost like he wanted her body to be found but he didn't expect to get tied to the murder? I simply can't understand how anyone could be this obvious and careless if they were going to take the time to attempt a cover up or cleanup at all.

Great post, Solaris. To me, it appears that the sloppiness invites discovery.

 

[Indy Anna]

BBM, this is what scares the heck out of me about these accused/convicted killers (this case and others) possibly having mental illnesses. Millions of people suffer from a variety of mental illnesses, but most of them don't go out and murder others! I've always thought that whole plea makes no sense. If you're out murdering people IMO, chances are you've got something insane going on in your head. It still doesn't make it OK to go kill someone. IMO.

If someone with mental illness is able to function normally from day to day, they cannot be classified as insane. Having bi-polar disorder, I know, doesn't make a person insane. I've worked with people (coworkers) who have bi-polar disorder, even one who wasn't on meds (but needed to be, although her behavior wasn't physically threatening) and one who needed her meds adjusted from time to time (and would acknowledge it).

My mother has only been diagnosed with clinical depression by a general practitioner, but she has symptoms of bi-polar. She refuses to see a psychiatrist or take anti-depressants because she's convinced it's everyone else who has the problem. At times she is paranoid - she's convinced someone has been in her house or wants to steal something (even an item of little value) from her. But, she lives alone and is able to function independently. Her behavior waxes and wanes from month to month. There are times during her more difficult phases when I will say something to her (like, "I think we'd better just stay home") and she will promise me she'll behave and actually changes her behavior, even though I don't mention the behavior. So, even without medication she is fully aware of what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior.

My point is that having a mental illness doesn't mean a person isn't in control of their thoughts and actions. The worrisome thing is that many times MI is used as a defense in a criminal trial. There are those rare occasions when insanity does apply because the suspect isn't in control of his/her thoughts. But, insanity pleas are overused and it's a disservice to those who do function normally because all individuals with mental illness are then viewed as a danger to society. The same goes for people with cognitive deficits. I've worked with MR/DD populations, including those with aggressive behaviors. Having a low IQ does not make anyone more prone to violence than someone with a normal to high IQ. But, using that as a defense only leads society to stereotype people with mental disorders as violent and irrational.

 

[nikb]

If someone with mental illness is able to function normally from day to day, they cannot be classified as insane. Having bi-polar disorder, I know, doesn't make a person insane. I've worked with people (coworkers) who have bi-polar disorder, even one who wasn't on meds (but needed to be, although her behavior wasn't physically threatening) and one who needed her meds adjusted from time to time (and would acknowledge it).

My mother has only been diagnosed with clinical depression by a general practitioner, but she has symptoms of bi-polar. She refuses to see a psychiatrist or take anti-depressants because she's convinced it's everyone else who has the problem. At times she is paranoid - she's convinced someone has been in her house or wants to steal something (even an item of little value) from her. But, she lives alone and is able to function independently. Her behavior waxes and wanes from month to month. There are times during her more difficult phases when I will say something to her (like, "I think we'd better just stay home") and she will promise me she'll behave and actually changes her behavior, even though I don't mention the behavior. So, even without medication she is fully aware of what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior.

My point is that having a mental illness doesn't mean a person isn't in control of their thoughts and actions. The worrisome thing is that many times MI is used as a defense in a criminal trial. There are those rare occasions when insanity does apply because the suspect isn't in control of his/her thoughts. But, insanity pleas are overused and it's a disservice to those who do function normally because all individuals with mental illness are then viewed as a danger to society. The same goes for people with cognitive deficits. I've worked with MR/DD populations, including those with aggressive behaviors. Having a low IQ does not make anyone more prone to violence than someone with a normal to high IQ. But, using that as a defense only leads society to stereotype people with mental disorders as violent and irrational.

Thanks button wasn't enough! Thanks for the very informative post. I agree with you that MI is way, way over-used (and IMO abused). I for sure don't have that stereotype of those with mental disorders being violent or a danger to society, but I do admittedly have a probably incorrect stereotype in my head that anyone who kills someone must, based on the act they committed, be insane in some way.

 

[surrogatemom]

Holt's wife filed for divorce on Friday: http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Jonathan-Holts-wife-files-for-divorce-176341531.html

 

[nikb]

Holt's wife filed for divorce on Friday: http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Jonathan-Holts-wife-files-for-divorce-176341531.html

Wow, and good for her!

It sounds like she's making some really big strides in rebuilding her life, and so quickly after such a tragic shock. I admire her.

 

[Indy Anna]

Thanks button wasn't enough! Thanks for the very informative post. I agree with you that MI is way, way over-used (and IMO abused). I for sure don't have that stereotype of those with mental disorders being violent or a danger to society, but I do admittedly have a probably incorrect stereotype in my head that anyone who kills someone must, based on the act they committed, be insane in some way.

IMO, criminals just tend to make poor decisions spurred by arrogance, greed and disregard for others.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

BBM

Well, since you are calling me out by name while replying to someone else's post, I'll go ahead and weigh in here.

I'm interpreting your opinion as (my words):

Holt managed to maintain a B average in high school, therefore he is not a moron, therefore this is a reason to question LE's case against him for abducting, torturing, terrorizing, sexually assaulting, murdering, and abusing after death Whitney Heichel and attempting to cover up his crimes.​

Is that close?

BTW, ICBW, but I believe many U.S. high schools use a 4.5 GPA system, as opposed to a 4.0 system used by most colleges... Do you know whether he managed this non-moronic B average in Honors classes? Advanced Placement? College Prep? Remedial? And what were his SAT scores? His IQ score?

Sorry, but I'm not getting why the issue of Holt's high school grades or whether he is a certifiable "moron" have anything to do with the case against him for the abduction and murder of Whitney Heichel.

LE has a detailed confession and partial timeline directly from the suspect's own mouth, plus tons of physical evidence that corroborate that confession, video evidence, DNA evidence, weapons, evidence from the body of the victim, evidence from the crime scenes, witness evidence, evidence from suspect's past behavior and history. And probably more that has not been made public at this point.

Are you suggesting that the evidence we've seen so far indicates that only a total moron could have killed Whitney, therefore LE will have to prove Holt is a moron with poor high school grades in order to prove the case?

Or that LE has falsified the case against Holt, who could not have killed Whitney because he had decent grades in high school?

Or that LE are simply morons themselves who have gotten the wrong guy?

Help me out here. Like your comments about questioning LE's case because you don't think Holt was a moron, I've found many of your statements puzzling and thought-provoking, possibly intentionally abstruse (JMO). Well okay. My thoughts are puzzled and provoked. So what are you getting at?

Would you care to elucidate?

Desdemona, I was just teasing you b/c the first times you ever interacted with me in here have been in this thread, with two different posts that pointedly reminded me that those thoughts I'd posted were only my opinion. (The absurdity of the case, etc.)

I take that to be a given with posting on forums, but I'm somewhat new to this forum, and noticed so many MOOs and JMOs, MHOs, (et al) on here, that I wondered if maybe people on this forum were extra sensitive about needing to see that in posts on here. So, I came up with my lovely signature and posted that thinking I'd covered my bases...only to discover people were still not sure I understood that.

Anyway, I appreciate the thought that went into your post, believe me. I can see the wrestling, and I feel it in my own brain today, after 2 weeks of this. But...I still cannot answer your question due to the restrictions of this forum's TOS, other than to say that my approach to a case is to consider Everything and Everybody as well as the context of the case when I start to study it. It's like dumping out a 1000-piece jigsaw puzzle on the table, and then you just methodically start filling the pieces in to the timetable of facts. They have to fit; you can't force them. As I fill in the 'facts' in my puzzle, I often find I have to toss or at least set aside some preconceived notions that are going to try to force a fit. But doing so is really what brainstorming is all about, and for me that freedom is what can give me the "light bulb" moments.

Thanks for posting.

 

[gwenabob]

I take that to be a given with posting on forums, but I'm somewhat new to this forum, and noticed so many MOOs and JMOs, MHOs, (et al) on here, that I wondered if maybe people on this forum were extra sensitive about needing to see that in posts on here. So, I came up with my lovely signature and posted that thinking I'd covered my bases...only to discover people were still not sure I understood that.

Just a friendly FYI, it is possible to turn off the ability to view other people's signatures, and many posters do that because so many posters have made really large sigs with big pictures that take a long time to load, so it is quite possible your signature is not being seen at all by a lot of us, including me. (My own fault, I know, but I just don't like wasting so much time just on sigs.)

 

[gwenabob]

Holt's wife filed for divorce on Friday: http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Jonathan-Holts-wife-files-for-divorce-176341531.html

It appears she is representing herself. Shouldn't be a very difficult dissolution. No kids, and probably no property. I cannot imagine he will contest anything. Good for her. I hope she is able to move on and find someone worthy of her.