CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #6

[No_Stone_Unturned]

But the recipe supposedly came from Audrey, not AK

Yes, we were told this right from the start. :waitasec:

 

[Sillybilly]

... I HIGHLY doubt that Audrey would give away an old, cherished recipe book ...

I don't think it's been posted that she gave away her book with the recipe, but if she did lend it or give it, then PK and AK should still have it.

Here's what PK had to say about the cake/recipe:

from his post Sept 21, 2011:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Audrey Gleave, retired teacher, viciously murdered in home, Ancaster Ontario, #2

As for the questions regarding the cake, it was a bunt cake called "Texas Stoellen" from Time Magazine's series of books from foods around the world. If I think about it, I will post the recipe. There is a bit of a story to this: despite her incredibly diverse interests, Audrey was incredibly hard to buy gifts for (I found, anyways). So as early as the beginning of November, she told me she didn't want me to purchase anything for her for Christmas, but only to make this cake for her (because, as she often lamented, she was too lazy to make it herself). With respect to the comments about Audrey being a foodie and the surprise that she would let someone make food for her, I think this can be answered by understanding Audrey's approach to cooking/baking. She was a firm believer in scientific method and repeatability. Her recipes had painstaking detail and permitted no creativity whatsoever. In fact, she despised recipes that left room for the cook's personality. This is why she didn't have any problem asking Alex and I to make the cake for her because had "tried me out" before - asking me to make a spaghetti sauce that she loved to death - and she found that I could reliably follow the recipes she gave me.

<bbm>

I interpret from his post that Audrey gave him the recipe to bake the cake that she loved.

If the recipe PK posted this year was obtained from the internet, then i believe it had to come from the link I posted in Nov 2011 (it's the only place i could find it online). If so, why not just affirm at the time that it was the identical recipe, or post the same link, instead of re-typing the lengthy document and posting it over a year later.

I'm sure there is an explanation that we haven't thought of, but it would be nice to have the answer. Sorry if it sounds that I am belabouring the point and being tedious but, as in all cases, the devil's in the details, and it's only in having answers that allows us to rule in or out info as it relates to persons of interest.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I don't think it's been posted that she gave away her book with the recipe, but if she did lend it or give it, then PK and AK should still have it. That's right.

Here's what PK had to say about the cake/recipe:

from his post Sept 21, 2011:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Audrey Gleave, retired teacher, viciously murdered in home, Ancaster Ontario, #2

<bbm>

I interpret from his post that Audrey gave him the recipe to bake the cake that she loved.This makes much more sense than Audrey giving away the entire book, in my humble opinion.

If the recipe PK posted this year was obtained from the internet, then i believe it had to come from the link I posted in Nov 2011 (it's the only place i could find it online). If so, why not just affirm at the time that it was the identical recipe, or post the same link, instead of re-typing the lengthy document and posting it over a year later.?????????

I'm sure there is an explanation that we haven't thought of, but it would be nice to have the answer. Sorry if it sounds that I am belabouring the point and being tedious but, as in all cases, the devil's in the details, and it's only in having answers that allows us to rule in or out info as it relates to persons of interest.Agree wholeheartedly.

My comments are within the quote itself.

Other comments about Audrey + food:

1. Didn't we read somewhere that one of her favourite foods was chicken pot pie?

2. If she wasn't into cooking/baking - why get a convection oven?

3. Did Audrey eat a meal when she visited LV on Boxing Day?

4. Did Audrey eat a treat of sorts with the coffee group people?

5. Was her fridge bare or filled with different food when LE arrived?

6. Did Audrey regularly go grocery shopping?

7. Did Audrey eat the meal presented at the wedding?

I know these questions might sound inane, but I'm trying to understand Audrey's wanting to cook for herself or not. So far, the info we've received seems confusing. At least to me.

 

[Woodland]

Sillybilly - your timeline post is very good. It certainly shows discrepancies with the Dec 25 - 27 segment. Audrey was out on the 26th but had cabin fever on the 27th? If she truly wasn't well, she wouldn't care.

Way back when, a friend of LV and mutual acquaintance of Audrey posted something similar to the following -

Audrey was invited to LV's for Christmas dinner but found out someone she didn't really care for had also been invited so Audrey begged off claiming illness. No one believed Audrey was really ill, the feeling was Audrey was only saying that as an excuse not to come. Audrey apparently spent every Christmas with LV and LV's family.

Audrey shows up at LV's on Boxing Day - ill and spreading germs? Soup is found to be required the following day.

LV never talked to the press about Audrey's illness, but did let it slip that she found out Audrey had a friend living close to her that LV never knew about. I never bought into that part, fwiw. I also never really thought Audrey was ill.

Stollen - stolen? As in the stolen part from the hardware store? Same source, 2 spellings.

Jmo.

 

[2soccermom]

If it helps: I spent almost $30,000 two years ago on a kitchen renovation -- double oven, custom cabs, granite -- and yet it is well-known among my friends and family that I don't cook. Or bake. I simply wanted a beautiful space; the double oven fulfills my fantasy that IF I ever get 'round to having a dinner party it will come in handy. And they look nice Audrey probably needed a new oven because hers broke, or ... I don't see that getting a new appliance perforce equates with being an avid chef. About not making the cake herself: She probably enjoyed the idea of receiving a made gift from her young friend, and saving him a bit of money IF it was his habit to buy her a holiday gift. (She was, by all accounts, herself largely frugal; her car seems to have been her one luxury.) I don't see any inconsistency. I'm sorry ... I just don't understand the insistence that there's anything odd about her asking for the cake. Lots of intellectual women eschew a lot of domestic work. My understanding of Audrey was that she enjoyed doing outside work (but hired PK when her knees weren't strong) and other more masculine activities ... she certainly had a muscle car. Baking cakes probably wasn't her thing; that's not hard for me to ... errr ... swallow

CSZIGGY: Brilliant work!

 

[2soccermom]

Stollen - stolen? As in the stolen part from the hardware store? Same source, 2 spellings.

Jmo.

Woodland -- again, sorry: I just can't see a homonym as suspicious evidence. Unconscious triggers or psychoanlytic phantasms operate more complexly, at least I'd say, than this. I don't mean to sound contrary or to close off discussion, but I guess I keep feeling compelled to offer some defence. Sigh. I can only just say I keep hoping LE will solve this so we're not at odds in our ideas ... and, more importantly, so that there will be justice for Audrey. Sigh again. I know we're working for the same ends, and I'm not sure if I ever added my thanks to all the others for the neat sleuthing you've done in relation to the will and other things. It's not really your point above, especially, that I'm drawing attention to; rather, it's more that, IMO, some of the reasons we give to point fingers at this one particular person seem less a description of what's odd than a production of that effect ...

moo, of course.

 

[Woodland]

What do think happened to Audrey 2soccermom?

 

[Sillybilly]

Woodland, I seem to have lost my copy of the mortgage that Audrey signed. Could you please direct me to where I can find it, or provide details (date, amount, mortgagee) so I can pop them into the next timeline. Thank you !!

 

[Chorley8]

"The "hell or high water" email and the cancellation with the coffee group the same day are totally contradictory)." SillyBilly

If not Audrey then 1. cancel the coffee group yet 2. keep P.K. tied up thinking she is ill....but is o.k...... is going to emerge again soon on Wed. If he is part of the problem then of course the email to him would be to seemingly place him at home receiving the e-mail.

Obviously if the e-mails are counterfeit then something is seriously wrong and the small conspiracy idea becomes possible. I guess it could be a single person. I think it is still possible there could be someone we don't know about. Left-Coaster thinking wild, do you think both P.K. the original suspect and L.V. could all be set up as possible suspects by an intelligent Machiavellian Unsub?

So I were to let L.V. off the hook could she have rushed things a bit with final arrangements because she thought someone might have the gall to profer an alternative will (?).

 

[dreamwatcher]

Look very her close to her associates first. If I recall her brother in law, found it odd, that she was murdered with a sexual connotation attached to it. And apparently, she did? Hmm, how odd that he would bring that up!!

Add Pk who was not that disturbed when he found her, only to report on this website that her pants were torn at the Side. There was no shock or horror - no reporting of a bloody crime scene.

The original detective talking to the press? Whereby he said that he had never seen such a murder scene in all of his years? Or PK who discovered her body?

The original detective, gosh I can't recall his name, was the one who was very convinced that the mentally ill homeless person had something to do with it.

Yes, they (the cops do have dna) and it was the dna which cleared the homeless individual, yet the first detective jumped to this conclusion that it had to be him, and he was arrested for the murder of Audrey, and released as the dna did not match. A Rush to Judgement on the part of the Detective.

So - whom are we to believe, the first Detective? - or PK who discovered her remains in the first place?
Such a mystery indeed. Who murdered Audrey Gleave??

DW

 

[Sillybilly]

"The "hell or high water" email and the cancellation with the coffee group the same day are totally contradictory)." SillyBilly

If not Audrey then 1. cancel the coffee group yet 2. keep P.K. tied up thinking she is ill....but is o.k...... is going to emerge again soon on Wed. If he is part of the problem then of course the email to him would be to seemingly place him at home receiving the e-mail.

Obviously if the e-mails are counterfeit then something is seriously wrong and the small conspiracy idea becomes possible. I guess it could be a single person. I think it is still possible there could be someone we don't know about. Left-Coaster thinking wild, do you think both P.K. the original suspect and L.V. could all be set up as possible suspects by an intelligent Machiavellian Unsub?

So I were to let L.V. off the hook could she have rushed things a bit with final arrangements because she thought someone might have the gall to profer an alternative will (?).

Dang, i sure wish we knew the actual times of the LF email and the coffee cancellation email.

IF LV in fact did bring soup and Audrey did in fact visit the vet that afternoon, then AG was killed sometime afterward.

IF Audrey was killed later that day, and IF a perp sent the coffee cancellation email that same day, for what purpose was that notification? We could say the perp spent time with Audrey Monday through Weds, but the perp couldn't know that LV might not return Tuesday or Wednesday with more soup, etc., or know if LV had a key to let herself in. With that in mind, why did LV did not return with soup, etc on any other days that week? If PK hadn't shown up Thursday, how long would it have been before LV contacted Audrey?

On the other hand, assuming LV had nothing to do with Audrey's demise, the perp would have to KNOW that Audrey's body would be found sooner or later, so how does cancelling the Weds meeting factor in to the scheme of things? I can't thing of anything other than to buy time, for some reason, before Audrey's body was found. Why ??

It seems odd that LV would not contact Audrey when she knew she was ill, and it seems odd that PK knew Audrey was ill but didn't contact her, even though he was used to receiving emails from her on an almost daily basis.

 

[Sillybilly]

... Yes, they (the cops do have dna) and it was the dna which cleared the homeless individual, yet the first detective jumped to this conclusion that it had to be him, and he was arrested for the murder of Audrey, and released as the dna did not match. A Rush to Judgement on the part of the Detective. ..

<rsbm>

Long time no see DW

For the record ... it has never been established whether they have DNA or not. DLS's lawyer publicly railed that they didn't, and when DLS was released, LE stated it was due to "forensic evidence" not matching ... so, it wasn't necessarily DNA that cleared him, and we just don't know what that forensic evidence consists of.

ETA: WRT David G, it was reported within the first 24 - 48 hours (at least by Jan 1 latest) that there was a "sexual component" to the vicious killing. I'd bring it up too if a friend of mine was found dead under the same circumstances. IMO, he would have been exceptionally remiss had he not brought it to the attention of LE.

http://www.thespec.com/news/crime/article/307949--police-investigating-ancaster-area-homicide

 

[Chorley8]

"On the other hand, assuming LV had nothing to do with Audrey's demise, the perp would have to KNOW that Audrey's body would be found sooner or later, so how does cancelling the Weds meeting factor in to the scheme of things? I can't thing of anything other than to buy time, for some reason, before Audrey's body was found. Why ??"

Just an idea: Audrey's investigations of something, fraud, plagiariasm, something more farfetched relating to science, (or given her eccentricity something hidden in the house even cash) whatever, meant that the evidence, in the house, on the computer had to be dealt with found, erased not sure. They would need Audrey for passwords or location etc. I would think she would be very feisty hence the violence. It is possible in fact that she REFUSED to give them what they wanted hence the frustrated extreme violence. The missing banking information is an obvious clue. The stuffed purse untouched is a clue IMO because it PROBABLY (pure surmise) contained personal papers I.D. SIN etc. that purse screams FIND ME - just what would be needed to expedite the will and speedy sale of house (and was this in her capacity of power of attorney or was there a stipulation in the will?). The papers strewn about the yard if that is true is almost surely a lame attempt to lead LE in the wrong direction "theft" or "madman" because in fact everything that is needed is there except the banking info - and there has to be a reason that is missing.

At a loss to understand why 2SM things these events are common-place - (though it is not as though I have ruled out the possibility of a lone deranged stranger) - but I really think that is becoming less and less likely.

Your questions about calling in on Audrey SB are excellent and I think this is the reason LE are looking at her friends - I am almost certain they are finding far more incongruities of this kind than we are.

 

[Chorley8]

"For the record ... it has never been established whether they have DNA or not. DLS's lawyer publicly railed that they didn't, and when DLS was released, LE stated it was due to "forensic evidence" not matching ... so, it wasn't necessarily DNA that cleared him, and we just don't know what that forensic evidence consists of."

Could be time of death since he was in jail on the 29th correct? If she died on the 30th.....

Set up of P.K. theory: someone would need to know about the cake delivery possible that P.K. was supposed to be caught almost red-handed that would fit with date of death the 30th and hence the impossibility of DLS being the guy- I remember the conversation earlier thread about the open eyes of Audrey P.K. was positive about that - some felt or knew it meant relatively recent death?

I never did find the conversation here about the coat No Stone told me about so sorry just to say: if Audrey was wearing a heavy coat when stabbed then very difficult to stab through that hence the injuries to lower body - could the sexual component be "accidental". Man I would like to know how much blood - so we could determine if the stab wounds are post mortem.

I have to say though this works against my "hostage" theory to some extent - why is she wearing the coat?

 

[Sillybilly]

Could be time of death since he was in jail on the 29th correct? If she died on the 30th.....

Set up of P.K. theory: someone would need to know about the cake delivery possible that P.K. was supposed to be caught almost red-handed that would fit with date of death the 30th and hence the impossibility of DLS being the guy- I remember the conversation earlier thread about the open eyes of Audrey P.K. was positive about that - some felt or knew it meant relatively recent death?

I never did find the conversation here about the coat No Stone told me about so sorry just to say: if Audrey was wearing a heavy coat when stabbed then very difficult to stab through that hence the injuries to lower body - could the sexual component be "accidental". Man I would like to know how much blood - so we could determine if the stab wounds are post mortem.

I have to say though this works against my "hostage" theory to some extent - why is she wearing the coat?

With not knowing time of death, DLS arrested with the knife on the 29th looked pretty good for it at first blush. He was kept in jail legitimately on the weapons offence, so it's not like he was charged immediately with murder. He wasn't charged with murder until Feb 10 (immediately after his release), so i'm wondering if LE was doing some sabre-rattling then, using an incarcerated DLS (good deal ... a bed, 3 squares for a homeless guy in winter??) to see if they could draw out another perp.

Re a possible setup on PK? Had Audrey told someone that PK was coming over Thursday morning, and the perp knew the only other commitment Audrey had was her Weds coffee meeting. So, PK not expected until Thursday, and the coffee group kept nicely at bay, that would certainly have the perp confident of no interruptions and that PK would be the hapless individual to ultimately find Audrey.

No thoughts on the coat here ... other than Audrey meeting her perp in the garage, but IMO that can't explain the horrific scene that left seasoned LE so shaken when PK didnt' seem to think the garage scene was such a big deal. I've always thought it possible that the "horrific" part was inside the home, so makes the coat a real poser. Unless Audrey was able to grab it around herself to try to protect herself from the onslaught and was able to make a run for the garage ... hoping to set off the car alarm or something. Dunno ... just makes me to sad to visualize anything that her final moments may have consisted of.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I'm interested in knowing WHERE exactly Audrey was murdered. Was her house blood-covered (a` la SV)? Was Audrey placed in the garage? Did Audrey crawl to the garage if the killer left her to die? Why was the white Camaro virtually pristine with no blood splatter? Was Audrey WEARING the coat OR was it merely draped over her shoulders as we often do in times of rushing? And the BIG question - how on earth could a seasoned detective and a mere handyman see the crime scene so differently?

Far too many discrepencies, in my opinion.

And to repeat what Woodland asked here - who do YOU think murdered Audrey Gleave?

And about the brand new convection oven - I cannot cook/bake to save my own life. But we do have a convection oven for two reasons: a) we recently bought a new house and the oven was part of the deal; b) for resale value should we decide to sell this house as we get older.

I highly doubt Audrey was renovating her entire kitchen with granite and the whole shebang. We were only told about the new oven. Audrey didn't plan to entertain people in a 'picture-perfect, magazine cover type kitchen'. To ME, Audrey seemed very content to remain in her lovely house for many more years to come. Someone (WHO?????) stole those years from her. Mercilessly!

 

[Woodland]

Cancellation of coffee group meeting - see thread #1, page 4, post #93 (ability to quote is not there).

'She cancelled last Monday saying she ill.'
Last Monday was Dec 27th - at odds with telling PK she will attend 'come hell or high water.'

Having trouble attaching the docs with signatures. I keep getting 'file not valid'. I'm so bad with such matters. All suggestions welcome.

 

[Woodland]

Mods - will we get previous threads back - all of them? Could really use them for reference.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Hi all,

This is a repost of Audrey's Texas Stoellen recipe I posted at the end of the previous thread.

Bests,
Phil

Would some kind soul assist me here please? My computer still refuses to open PDF files so I'm unable to see this attachment.

I simply want to know:
- is it a handwritten recipe?

- is it a copy from a recipe book?

- a copy from a magazine?

- could it be a recipe sent via computer from Audrey?

Many thanks in advance, guys!

 

[LeftCoaster]

...If not Audrey then 1. cancel the coffee group yet 2. keep P.K. tied up thinking she is ill....but is o.k...... is going to emerge again soon on Wed. If he is part of the problem then of course the email to him would be to seemingly place him at home receiving the e-mail.

Obviously if the e-mails are counterfeit then something is seriously wrong and the small conspiracy idea becomes possible. I guess it could be a single person. I think it is still possible there could be someone we don't know about. Left-Coaster thinking wild, do you think both P.K. the original suspect and L.V. could all be set up as possible suspects by an intelligent Machiavellian Unsub? ...

rsbm

Chorley8, the way that everything fits-but-doesn't-fit in terms of every possible predictable interruption (by LV, PK, and Wednesday coffee klatsch) being "covered" between Dec. 26 or 27 and Dec. 30, stinks to high heaven to me. Throw in a dash of unusual email (Amazing Grace to PK and LF, but not?? to JH or LV, and otherwise no email to people whom she was a regular correspondent). Now, consider the vagueness around when Audrey went to possibly a lot of trouble, considering she was ill, to take dogs to the vet. Indeed, it doesn't seem too wild-thinking that someone carefully set this up with a strategy. Big questions are was this an individual or a group, and either way, how "close to home"?

IIRC, PK had noted here that the "sexual component" of the murder was instantly evident because of the way Audrey's body was contorted. Since that isn't information that eventually appeared in Jon Wells' account, I think it's a detail LE is keeping close to its chest. Thus :twocents: it isn't amnesia on PK's part or as much of a contradiction as it seems - it's a critical detail that only the 'real' perp is going to recognize if apprehended.:moo: