Ramsey Home Electronic Surveillance!

[SunnieRN]

This is something I would like opinions about. Does everyone believe this was something done by the Ramsey lawyers, or something that had been in place previously?

A. James Kolar Foreign Faction Page 132 - 133

Not long after arriving in the home, investigators noted something unusual. Small wiring ran from several motion detectors and they seemed to lead to a locked closet beneath the basement stairs. Though the house was old and had been subjected to extensive remodeling, the detectives thought it odd that the wiring to these devices would not have been concealed in the ceiling or walls.

Upon closer inspection, the motion detectors appeared to contain small camera lenses.

Sergeant Wickman kicked in the door of the closet and observed a VHS recorder was actively recording four different rooms of the interior of the home. He directed Detective Gosage to collect the tape and later confirmed that members of the BPD investigative team had been recorded on the tape as they moved around the home.

Closer examination of the recorder revealed that it was not set to record upon the activation of a motion detector but had to be manually turned on to enter a record mode.

This was also in Steve Thomas's book:

A group of our Dream Team attorneys and detectives walked into an ambush during a visit to the Fifteenth Street Ramsey home, after receiving permission and being let in by a Realtor. As they spent two hours going from room to room, discussing how the case facts fit with the geographic layout of the house, Team Ramsey was secretly videotaping our moves.
Police discovered four tiny cameras hidden inside motion detectors and followed the wires to a videotape recorder and monitor locked in a basement closet. The cameras covered the basement, JonBenét’s bedroom, and part of the main floor—precisely the areas where our team had stopped and talked about the case. A tape was retrieved showing our team on the site.
The videotape recorder did not record continuously but required a physical act to switch it on. Someone had activated it only an hour and fifteen minutes before our people arrived.
The covert surveillance could have been a crime if a listening device had also been found. I was willing to bet there was a miniaturized bug planted in there somewhere, but FBI technicians said they would be unable to find it without tearing the house apart. Beckner declared it a crime scene, had the locks changed, and seized all the video equipment as evidence.
The Ramsey lawyers and private investigators later admitted that the video equipment belonged to them and claimed it was installed because of concerns about trespassing. If that were true, why didn’t they tell us before, and why did they have the cameras running? I didn’t believe them, but although the incident screamed for a thorough investigation, it went away, just like Computergate.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 271 - 272

So, just to see what was going on with the investigation by BPD??

 

[BOESP]

I think you figured it out, SunnieRN.

 

[MayraMM]

Wait, the cameras were set up after her death, or were they there before, too? If they were new, that speaks a lot to their mentality and feelings of guilt, IMO.

 

[deca]

I think the implication was that Team Ramsey were trying to get information for a future defense or information for the misdirection campaign.

What is computergate? Can someone point me in the right direction?

 

[wengr]

I think the implication was that Team Ramsey were trying to get information for a future defense or information for the misdirection campaign.

What is computergate? Can someone point me in the right direction?

Computergate is a term used to descibe a situation between the BPD and the DA office, where some within BPD felt that someone from the DA office had made unauthorized access to thier computer in order to learn information. It's pretty well described in the Thomas book.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I wonder if they were worried about people planting evidence? At this point they would have not trusted the police. I would think it was more for their protection than anything else.

 

[Nom de plume]

I think the implication was that Team Ramsey were trying to get information for a future defense or information for the misdirection campaign.

What is computergate? Can someone point me in the right direction?

It was mentioned in FF, and I'm pretty sure ST's book too. When BPD had their detectives working this case out of the DA's office, one of their computer's was hacked. The DA's office said it was a "malfunction" but IIRC it was CBI that said it was definitely hacked. I can't remember which detective it was, or the exact details, but it was thought that the DA believed BPD was withholding info.

 

[dodie20]

I wonder if they were worried about people planting evidence? At this point they would have not trusted the police. I would think it was more for their protection than anything else.

I don't think so, because lawyers said it was for trespassers. In other words, they admitted it was being used to secretly tape people, in those particular rooms. Also, by this time, (the post didn't say when, but a realtor was there and the Rs had a team of lawyers, PIs, etc), if any new evidence was found by cops, the Rs wouldn't have needed a secret recording to claim a plant, because all evidence of any value should have already been found. In other words, that ship had sailed. All moo

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

I wonder if they were worried about people planting evidence? At this point they would have not trusted the police. I would think it was more for their protection than anything else.

I think they were absolutely worried about evidence being planted. They were obviously dealing with Keystone Kops. Incompetent detectives can be very dangerous when the pressure is on them to make an arrest, and this bunch was about as incompetent as they come.

 

[OpenMind4U]

I think they were absolutely worried about evidence being planted. They were obviously dealing with Keystone Kops. Incompetent detectives can be very dangerous when the pressure is on them to make an arrest, and this bunch was about as incompetent as they come.

Pure baloney!!! Why? Because:

- how Ramsey's camp knew what day and what time BPD will be there 'to plant evidence'? The camera was installed 1.5 hours before BPD arrives;

- do you know what day and year this accident happened? JULY 1997!!!! More than half a year after all evidences have been collected by BPD, documented and sealed already!!! House was under REALTOR authority!

- Ramsey's camp wasn't worry about 'planted evidences'. If needed, they have all means to plant 'intruder' evidences by themself!!! They need information in addition to what AH provides them already: they need to know WHAT BPD KNOWS!!!!.

EDIII, everytime you make a statement about someone else 'incompetents' - look in the mirror and BLINK....because this is the best what you can do with your competence!

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

Pure baloney!!! Why? Because:

- how Ramsey's camp knew what day and what time BPD will be there 'to plant evidence'? The camera was installed 1.5 hours before BPD arrives;

- do you know what day and year this accident happened? JULY 1997!!!! More than half a year after all evidences have been collected by BPD, documented and sealed already!!! House was under REALTOR authority!

- Ramsey's camp wasn't worry about 'planted evidences'. If needed, they have all means to plant 'intruder' evidences by themself!!! They need information in addition to what AH provides them already: they need to know WHAT BPD KNOWS!!!!.

Do you know that in July of 1997, the Ramseys were defending themselves against a gang of Keystone Kops who were absolutely convinced that they brutally murdered their own daughter?

Of course, the Ramsey defense team would be interested in "knowing what they know," or more to the point, knowing what was going on inside their pointed little heads and what contrivances they might have up their sleeves to "help the truth along" and this certainly would not rule out planting evidence under a floorboard or behind a wall, etc.

EDIII, everytime you make a statement about someone else 'incompetents' - look in the mirror and BLINK....because this is the best what you can do with your competence!

At another internet forum, I would respond to your weak smack with overwhelming rebuttal, but it is rumored that IDI are not allowed to defend themselves here against any manner of insult which RDI may avail against them, lest they risk being permanently banned. Therefore, I will ignore you.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I don't think so, because lawyers said it was for trespassers. In other words, they admitted it was being used to secretly tape people, in those particular rooms. Also, by this time, (the post didn't say when, but a realtor was there and the Rs had a team of lawyers, PIs, etc), if any new evidence was found by cops, the Rs wouldn't have needed a secret recording to claim a plant, because all evidence of any value should have already been found. In other words, that ship had sailed. All moo

However if I were the Ramsey's I would want the place under surveillance as long as it was still under my name. I would not trust anyone at that point.
I don't think they would come out and say. "Hey we did it so the police won't try and make something up. " I think they were very afraid at this point. Their daughter is dead. Murdered in their home and the people they thought would help them find her killer, are accusing them.

I am definitely in the IDI camp. Everything I've read, all the case info still I'm IDI.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Do you know that in July of 1997, the Ramseys were defending themselves against a gang of Keystone Kops who were absolutely convinced that they brutally murdered their own daughter?

Of course, the Ramsey defense team would be interested in "knowing what they know," or more to the point, knowing what was going on inside their pointed little heads and what contrivances they might have up their sleeves to "help the truth along" and this certainly would not rule out planting evidence under a floorboard or behind a wall, etc.



At another internet forum, I would respond to your weak smack with overwhelming rebuttal, but it is rumored that IDI are not allowed to defend themselves here against any manner of insult which RDI may avail against them, lest they risk being permanently banned. Therefore, I will ignore you.

Hmmm....'Keystone Kops. Incompetent detectives'...'their pointed little heads ...'...looks like YOU'RE AN EXPERT of insult!!!

EDIII, go back and re-read all your posts. You has INSULTED every posters on this forum with your arrogant replies. You have no manners to keep civil conversation...and yes, I wish you would be permanently banned!...and this has nothing to do with you being IDI.

 

[M.James]

"...it is rumored that IDI are not allowed to defend themselves here against any manner of insult which RDI may avail against them, lest they risk being permanently banned. Therefore, I will ignore you.

*I usually ignore people once they’ve tried to provoke me, or insult my intelligence. Especially internet personalities who are full of diatribe (and themselves).

But, truthfully, I hope you don’t get yourself banned as I’m interested in hearing what the 'intruder' side has to say. Not the typical ‘I don’t think Ramseys did it because how could they…’ sentiment, but with facts and proof harder than Everclear. I realize neither side can 100 % prove anything, but honest, clear deduction can help solve a mystery.

I believe the way to solve this case (if it’s possible) is to listen to what both sides have to say. And, I don’t mean everybody, but those who are reasonable enough to listen to the other. That’s what I’ve been trying to do, but it’s hard because there are several very well informed and intelligent Ramsey did it people here, and not so many Intruder did it people.
I want and need both to be able to theorize for myself. I said before that I think RDI and IDI need each other for the elimination process. But, both sides so adamantly believe they’re right, that they can’t get along for pure stubbornness.
And that’s sad considering the reason everybody’s here. And, everyone here has earned the right to be treated with respect, if for nothing more than just being here for the right reasons.

 

[OpenMind4U]

*I usually ignore people once they’ve tried to provoke me, or insult my intelligence. Especially internet personalities who are full of diatribe (and themselves).

But, truthfully, I hope you don’t get yourself banned as I’m interested in hearing what the 'intruder' side has to say. Not the typical ‘I don’t think Ramseys did it because how could they…’ sentiment, but with facts and proof harder than Everclear. I realize neither side can 100 % prove anything, but honest, clear deduction can help solve a mystery.

I believe the way to solve this case (if it’s possible) is to listen to what both sides have to say. And, I don’t mean everybody, but those who are reasonable enough to listen to the other. That’s what I’ve been trying to do, but it’s hard because there are several very well informed and intelligent Ramsey did it people here, and not so many Intruder did it people.
I want and need both to be able to theorize for myself. I said before that I think RDI and IDI need each other for the elimination process. But, both sides so adamantly believe they’re right, that can’t get along for pure stubbornness.
And that’s sad considering the reason everybody’s here. And, everyone here has earned the right to be treated with respect, if for nothing more than just being here for the right reasons.

Agree with BBM. IMO, any debate, any conversation, any discussion should be based on known facts first. It's very possible to arrive to different conclusion from these facts (as a good example, look how many different theories RDI have!!!) but it's less than productive to INVENT something like 'JBR was obducted by marcian' or 'two burglers, bad man and good woman, accidently molested, hit her on the head and, after 90 min, strangle a child inside of her home without leaving any phisical evidence of their existance'....Possible? I don't think so. But if I'm wrong - please proof me wrong with the known facts, not with arrogant biting remarks.

Like MM said in her excellent post to EDIII, all of us here for one purpose only: we want rightfull justice for JonBenet! Regardless, which theory, RDI or IDI, eventually will help to get this justice.

jmo

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

*I usually ignore people once they’ve tried to provoke me, or insult my intelligence. Especially internet personalities who are full of diatribe (and themselves).

But, truthfully, I hope you don’t get yourself banned as I’m interested in hearing what the 'intruder' side has to say. Not the typical ‘I don’t think Ramseys did it because how could they…’ sentiment, but with facts and proof harder than Everclear. I realize neither side can 100 % prove anything, but honest, clear deduction can help solve a mystery.

I believe the way to solve this case (if it’s possible) is to listen to what both sides have to say. And, I don’t mean everybody, but those who are reasonable enough to listen to the other. That’s what I’ve been trying to do, but it’s hard because there are several very well informed and intelligent Ramsey did it people here, and not so many Intruder did it people.
I want and need both to be able to theorize for myself. I said before that I think RDI and IDI need each other for the elimination process. But, both sides so adamantly believe they’re right, that they can’t get along for pure stubbornness.
And that’s sad considering the reason everybody’s here. And, everyone here has earned the right to be treated with respect, if for nothing more than just being here for the right reasons.

I understand you completely. In fact, my own IDI theory was gradually developed through dialectics with intelligent RDI theorists. Unfortunately, RDI dogmatists (who are usually not very intelligent and compensate for it by maintaining a groupthink mentality with their confederates) invariably interrupt the process by trying their very best to get IDI theorists banned, most especially, IDI theorists who present a strong argument which the RDI dogmatists find difficult to refute.

I have not been here very long so it will be quite easy for you to observe how many times the only rebuttal I have received from an RDI was nothing more than obnoxious sarcasm or a direct insult. They know the game. They insult the IDI until he or she insults them back then they petition the moderator to ban the IDI. This is why there are so few IDI around.

 

[Magdalyn]

Unfortunately, RDI dogmatists (who are usually not very intelligent and compensate for it by maintaining a groupthink mentality with their confederates) invariably interrupt the process by trying their very best to get IDI theorists banned, most especially, IDI theorists who present a strong argument which the RDI dogmatists find difficult to refute.

I have not been here very long so it will be quite easy for you to observe how many times the only rebuttal I have received from an RDI was nothing more than obnoxious sarcasm or a direct insult. They know the game. They insult the IDI until he or she insults them back then they petition the moderator to ban the IDI. This is why there are so few IDI around.

Methinks if an IDI theorist were to get him/herself banned, it would be for repeated inflammatory statements such as -- for example-- the one bolded, not for disagreeing with a theory. JMO. :seeya:

 

[SunVenus]

At another internet forum, I would respond to your weak smack with overwhelming rebuttal, but it is rumored that IDI are not allowed to defend themselves here against any manner of insult which RDI may avail against them, lest they risk being permanently banned. Therefore, I will ignore you.

Jeez Ed, of all the ways you could take a conversation, you went there? C'mon mate, that's really pushing it. I've not posted much as you can see, nor have I been a member long. But I've been reading this forum for years before I registered, and I've never seen anyone banned because they were IDI. That's harsh & a flat out fib. I have however seen some very rude people get banned or have posts removed for being so terribly rude that it went beyond the pale. Don't be one of those. And if it does happen, don't do the conpsiratorial BS of "oh they are an evil cabal of people put to get the Ramsey family". We aren't a cabal, we aren't evil, we aren't out to get the Ramseys (many of us reasonably suspect them, but we aren't vigilantes) and even though many of us are RDI, we came to that point honestly via reserach and using our best judgment. Isn't that how you came to your theory?

You're pushing the limits man. Give it a chance. Yes you are in the minority of opinion here, but as I've said to you elsewhere, we all share one goal: justice for JBR. RDI and IDI can unite on that, I know. I think you know that too.

 

[M.James]

I have not been here very long so it will be quite easy for you to observe how many times the only rebuttal I have received from an RDI was nothing more than obnoxious sarcasm or a direct insult. They know the game. They insult the IDI until he or she insults them back then they petition the moderator to ban the IDI. This is why there are so few IDI around.

*This is not Blarney Castle, for sure. And, you certainly haven't had your lips pursed to the stone, either.

 

[MissJ]

This is something I would like opinions about. Does everyone believe this was something done by the Ramsey lawyers, or something that had been in place previously?

A. James Kolar Foreign Faction Page 132 - 133

Not long after arriving in the home, investigators noted something unusual. Small wiring ran from several motion detectors and they seemed to lead to a locked closet beneath the basement stairs. Though the house was old and had been subjected to extensive remodeling, the detectives thought it odd that the wiring to these devices would not have been concealed in the ceiling or walls.

Upon closer inspection, the motion detectors appeared to contain small camera lenses.

Sergeant Wickman kicked in the door of the closet and observed a VHS recorder was actively recording four different rooms of the interior of the home. He directed Detective Gosage to collect the tape and later confirmed that members of the BPD investigative team had been recorded on the tape as they moved around the home.

Closer examination of the recorder revealed that it was not set to record upon the activation of a motion detector but had to be manually turned on to enter a record mode.

This was also in Steve Thomas's book:

A group of our Dream Team attorneys and detectives walked into an ambush during a visit to the Fifteenth Street Ramsey home, after receiving permission and being let in by a Realtor. As they spent two hours going from room to room, discussing how the case facts fit with the geographic layout of the house, Team Ramsey was secretly videotaping our moves.
Police discovered four tiny cameras hidden inside motion detectors and followed the wires to a videotape recorder and monitor locked in a basement closet. The cameras covered the basement, JonBenét’s bedroom, and part of the main floor—precisely the areas where our team had stopped and talked about the case. A tape was retrieved showing our team on the site.
The videotape recorder did not record continuously but required a physical act to switch it on. Someone had activated it only an hour and fifteen minutes before our people arrived.
The covert surveillance could have been a crime if a listening device had also been found. I was willing to bet there was a miniaturized bug planted in there somewhere, but FBI technicians said they would be unable to find it without tearing the house apart. Beckner declared it a crime scene, had the locks changed, and seized all the video equipment as evidence.
The Ramsey lawyers and private investigators later admitted that the video equipment belonged to them and claimed it was installed because of concerns about trespassing. If that were true, why didn’t they tell us before, and why did they have the cameras running? I didn’t believe them, but although the incident screamed for a thorough investigation, it went away, just like Computergate.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 271 - 272

So, just to see what was going on with the investigation by BPD??

Thank you is not enough Sunnie! You are great!:what::moo: