Items removed from house

[Anyhoo]

This is a question for all the RDI people on this forum: It has been shown that multiple items used in the murder of JBR were somehow removed from the Ramsey house. The Duct Tape, the rest of the cord, possibly the head bash weapon, maybe other items also. I have read a lot about this case but I don't think I have ever read anyone directly talking about this in terms of RDI.

Assuming that one or more Ramseys were directly involved in the murder of JBR (RDI), how and when were these items removed from the house? Or do you believe they were not removed from the house at all but merely not found? I just want to hear an explanation for this from the RDI crowd.

In any trial of JR, these questions would certainly be asked and if they could not be answered it would be one more item of reasonable doubt leading to a verdict of not guilty.

 

[Harley]

They were probably removed in the set of golf clubs that John just had to have (in the middle of the winter) that Auntie Pam removed for him.

 

[Nom de plume]

They could have been removed immediately after the murder and put in the dumpster behind the Barnhill house across the street. The next day John was seen looking out Burke's bedroom window with binoculars in that very direction. I believe it was Kolar that speculated he was checking to see if the dumpster had been emptied yet.

It's also possible that John slipped the leftover tape, and cord if there was any left, into Patsy's purse before they left the house.

It's possible that Pam removed them when she emptied out half of the house. IIRC she was not allowed to go to the basement to get the golf clubs, even though they were so almighty important to John. In the middle of winter.

It's also possible, with the amount of junk that was in the basement, and I'd imagine the garage too that these items just were not found.

 

[dodie20]

They could have been removed immediately after the murder and put in the dumpster behind the Barnhill house across the street. The next day John was seen looking out Burke's bedroom window with binoculars in that very direction. I believe it was Kolar that speculated he was checking to see if the dumpster had been emptied yet.

It's also possible that John slipped the leftover tape, and cord if there was any left, into Patsy's purse before they left the house.

It's possible that Pam removed them when she emptied out half of the house. IIRC she was not allowed to go to the basement to get the golf clubs, even though they were so almighty important to John. In the middle of winter.

It's also possible, with the amount of junk that was in the basement, and I'd imagine the garage too that these items just were not found.

this is what I think...evidence was hidden in the house and then retrieved later. The basement looked like a tornado hit it, the kitchen was full of dishes and left out food, the bedrooms were in disarray, gifts were unwrapped with paper thrown about, different golf club sets were here and there, this house was a mess. Was PR's purse checked? What about the bags she had packed? John's pants and jacket pockets? Something small, could have been placed in a coat pocket in a closet. There's just no telling. That hose was a multi floored, rambling messy maze. moo

 

[Darlene733510]

They should have had them remove all their clothes and taken them as evidence. The clothes hampers should have been emptied and taken. Unless they wore the same undies every day, there should have been dirty ones in the hamper, especially JR's because he took a shower. One of the showers was not working - I wonder why? At first I thought the head bash may have come from a hand held shower attachment.

 

[Mitsana]

... The Duct Tape, the rest of the cord, possibly the head bash weapon, maybe other items also...
Assuming that one or more Ramseys were directly involved in the murder of JBR (RDI), how and when were these items removed from the house? Or do you believe they were not removed from the house at all but merely not found?

These possibilities have already been mentioned:
-Patsy's purse, dumpster at neighbor's, at the home but never identified

The rest of the duct tape:
1) Could have been hidden in the golf bag removed by PR's sister
2) If you believe the American Girl doll theory, maybe the rest of the roll of duct tape wasn't in the house (maybe the tape was applied to the doll(s) elsewhere or the roll had been used up previously or possibly taken elsewhere previously which was why the stager had to reuse a piece off a doll).

The rest of the cord:
1) Also a golf bag possibility
2) There was no additional cord. It was just a random piece that was handy (I have a few cord scraps around the house from who knows where).

The bash weapon:
1) Maybe one of the baseball bats found outside
2) If a golf club, again the golf bag
3) Possibly it was the edge of a tub or other rounded fixture edge.

I'm not saying these possibilities are exhaustive, just the ones that come easily to my mind.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Anyhoo, first, let's make the 'missing items' list, ok?

Missing Items

Duct Tape
Rope (rest of the cord)
Head Blow weapon - missing?
Tablet Pages
Pink PJ bottom
Bloody Cloths
Wooden end of Paintbrush
???

Were they are?

Trashed out in neighbour's trash can?
Burned inside of working fireplaces or in boiler?
Hidden inside of house in least expected places and lately removed by Pam?
All of the above?

Absence of the above is not the proof of IDI, right? 'Missing crime-related items' - how this can be used against/for Ramseys?.....Am I missing the reason you've asked this question?


jmo

 

[BOESP]

There was some speculation by detectives that some evidence could have been disposed of down a sewer pipe covered by a manhole cover out in the street. Iirc, there was an earring found near the cover and it was similar to or matched an earring found attached to the Santa bear on the unused twin bed in JonBenet's bedroom. Here are some related links:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3647536&highlight=earring#post3647536 post#22

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2140142&highlight=sewer#post2140142 post#39

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2010768&highlight=sewer#post2010768 post#470

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=737969&highlight=sewer#post737969 all posts

 

[Anyhoo]

Anyhoo, first, let's make the 'missing items' list, ok?

Missing Items

Duct Tape
Rope (rest of the cord)
Head Blow weapon - missing?
Tablet Pages
Pink PJ bottom
Bloody Cloths
Wooden end of Paintbrush
???

Were they are?

Trashed out in neighbour's trash can?
Burned inside of working fireplaces or in boiler?
Hidden inside of house in least expected places and lately removed by Pam?
All of the above?

Absence of the above is not the proof of IDI, right? 'Missing crime-related items' - how this can be used against/for Ramseys?.....Am I missing the reason you've asked this question?


jmo

Absence of the above, while not proof of IDI, would certainly be relevant in any trial of one or more of the Ramseys. My reason for asking the question actually relates to someone talking about the flashlight as being the head bash weapon, and that got me thinking about the possibility of the head bash weapon being removed from the house.

 

[OpenMind4U]

And after, all Ramseys

Absence of the above, while not proof of IDI, would certainly be relevant in any trial of one or more of the Ramseys. My reason for asking the question actually relates to someone talking about the flashlight as being the head bash weapon, and that got me thinking about the possibility of the head bash weapon being removed from the house.

O, OK. I'm not sure if flashlight is the head bash weapon or not. Here are my 'cons' and 'pros' thoughts on this subject.

CONS

- all items (see list in my post above) related to this murder were conviniently dissapeared. What was the reason to 'forgot' the flashlight and leave it in the place for everyone to discover right away, cleaned inside-out? Looks like the 'red herring' to me;

PROS

- based on the damage done on the scalp, it's very possible that flashlight was THE weapon;
- Why it wasn't missing? Because the flashlight is the only item which would needed AFTER the murder. Ramsey(s) need to move around (cleaning, destroying evidences, write RN...and so on) in the DARK to avoid being recognized by someone from outside. It was night, and any stationary lights 'on' inside of the house would create the risk. Only the flashlight provides the projected visiability without the risk to illuminate the face and figure of the user.

**** On the side note, while talking about the stationary light, I think the reason why security light above the garage area was 'off' is because IMO Ramsey(s) were leaving the house using the front door in the middle of the night, possibly to hide evidences. Why would I think so? For two reasons:

- one of the neighbors across Ramsey's house was testifying to hear some metal scratching noise. And like BOESP stated in above post, the evidences could be 'disposed of down a sewer pipe covered by a manhole cover out in the street'. And if it's not in the sewer pipe then maybe in some other metal garbage container nearby;

- we know it was lightly snowing that night. Any footprints at the doorsteps would be visiable by LE...therefore, IMO, Patsy was OUTSIDE, 'meeting and greeting' the first arriving LE officer at the front opened door. This fact alone was bothering me for long time...until I realized that 'nothing is for nothing' in this case. And shortly after, all Ramsey's friends arrived using the same front door...more overlaying foot prints...********

jmo

 

[CharlieBrown]

The next day John was seen looking out Burke's bedroom window with binoculars in that very direction. I believe it was Kolar that speculated he was checking to see if the dumpster had been emptied yet.

My god that is creepy.

Did Kolar mention anything in his book about Burke's pocket knife? If I remember correctly, the housekeeper said she had hidden it from Burke, and only she and Patsy knew its location, yet somehow the "intruder" found it and left it near the body.

 

[dodie20]

My god that is creepy.

Did Kolar mention anything in his book about Burke's pocket knife? If I remember correctly, the housekeeper said she had hidden it from Burke, and only she and Patsy knew its location, yet somehow the "intruder" found it and left it near the body.

you took the words right out of my mouth, It IS creepy. I wonder if JR ever gave an explanation of what he was looking at? For some reason, this story reminds me of the one where PR was peeking through her splayed fingers.

 

[Anyhoo]

And after, all Ramseys

O, OK. I'm not sure if flashlight is the head bash weapon or not. Here are my 'cons' and 'pros' thoughts on this subject.

CONS

- all items (see list in my post above) related to this murder were conviniently dissapeared. What was the reason to 'forgot' the flashlight and leave it in the place for everyone to discover right away, cleaned inside-out? Looks like the 'red herring' to me;

PROS

- based on the damage done on the scalp, it's very possible that flashlight was THE weapon;
- Why it wasn't missing? Because the flashlight is the only item which would needed AFTER the murder. Ramsey(s) need to move around (cleaning, destroying evidences, write RN...and so on) in the DARK to avoid being recognized by someone from outside. It was night, and any stationary lights 'on' inside of the house would create the risk. Only the flashlight provides the projected visiability without the risk to illuminate the face and figure of the user.

**** On the side note, while talking about the stationary light, I think the reason why security light above the garage area was 'off' is because IMO Ramsey(s) were leaving the house using the front door in the middle of the night, possibly to hide evidences. Why would I think so? For two reasons:

- one of the neighbors across Ramsey's house was testifying to hear some metal scratching noise. And like BOESP stated in above post, the evidences could be 'disposed of down a sewer pipe covered by a manhole cover out in the street'. And if it's not in the sewer pipe then maybe in some other metal garbage container nearby;

- we know it was lightly snowing that night. Any footprints at the doorsteps would be visiable by LE...therefore, IMO, Patsy was OUTSIDE, 'meeting and greeting' the first arriving LE officer at the front opened door. This fact alone was bothering me for long time...until I realized that 'nothing is for nothing' in this case. And shortly after, all Ramsey's friends arrived using the same front door...more overlaying foot prints...********

jmo

I agree that the wiped down flashlight with the wiped down batteries appears to have been left out on purpose intended to be found by LE and to lead to all kinds of speculation about it. It may be nothing more than clever staging to throw LE off the track. As such, it should probably be discarded as meaninful evidence and if part of staging it is almost certainly not the head bash weapon. I still contend that the head bash weapon may have been removed from the house. Of all the things to remove from the house it would be most logical to remove that.

I agree that there is/was a logical reason for the security light to be disabled: one or more people coming to or from the house who did not want to be seen by neighbors. There is really no other logical reason for it that I can see, and I must conclude it likely if not highly probable that this is what happened.

 

[Lorelilly]

Forgive me... what does IIRC stand for?

 

[OpenMind4U]

Forgive me... what does IIRC stand for?

"If I Remember Correctly"

 

[Anyhoo]

I thought of another reason for the security light to be out: staging. If the Ramsey's wanted LE to believe an intruder came and disabled or busted out the security light, they could have staged it. It does not infer that they went outside.

Another item removed from the house is the HiTech boot from which the boot print found next to JBR's body in the basement room.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

They were probably removed in the set of golf clubs that John just had to have (in the middle of the winter) that Auntie Pam removed for him.

I have to comment on this. My dad is a golfer. He has clubs with him all the time. Even in the winter. He takes his putters out and uses them and goes to the outdoor heated ranges. So the golf bag thing for me is not a red flag.

 

[Magdalyn]

I have to comment on this. My dad is a golfer. He has clubs with him all the time. Even in the winter. He takes his putters out and uses them and goes to the outdoor heated ranges. So the golf bag thing for me is not a red flag.

But is your dad such a golfer that it would occur to him the same night he's making his dead 6 year old's funeral arrangements at the mortuary that someone needs to retrieve his golf bag for him? No red flag on the timing there, fer reals?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

But is your dad such a golfer that it would occur to him the same night he's making his dead 6 year old's funeral arrangements at the mortuary that someone needs to retrieve his golf bag for him? No red flag on the timing there, fer reals?

Alright, you got me there.

I just know that my dad has golf on the brain. Where he goes his clubs go.

 

[DeeDee249]

There was some speculation by detectives that some evidence could have been disposed of down a sewer pipe covered by a manhole cover out in the street. Iirc, there was an earring found near the cover and it was similar to or matched an earring found attached to the Santa bear on the unused twin bed in JonBenet's bedroom. Here are some related links:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3647536&highlight=earring#post3647536 post#22

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2140142&highlight=sewer#post2140142 post#39

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2010768&highlight=sewer#post2010768 post#470

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=737969&highlight=sewer#post737969 all posts

I've seen photos of the earring, and it matched exactly. The earring that was attached to the belt of the Santa bear was likely one that JB wore the night she got the bear as a gift given to the pageant participants. It was a clip-on earring, and any woman here who has ever worn that style will know how they make your earlobes throb after a while. JB can be seen in virtually all her pageant photos wearing large adult earrings. It is no stretch to see how she couldn't wait to get home to take them off that night and so they were put on the Santa Bear for safekeeping. One likely fell off when she got out of the car. I don't think the earrings-even the one in the street- have anything to do with the crime at all.