The Suitcase - Duvet, Sham & Dr. Suess

[Charterhouse]

I found where I read this. Not that it makes a difference but I wanted to find it again
1997-04-03 PR Interrogation by Steve Thomas and Tom Trujillo:

PR: No, I don’t know whether I fixed it or didn’t fix it. I can’t remember even trying to remember that, um, I remember when I got back, uh, in the fall, you know . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .uh, went down there and cleaned up all the glass.
TT: Okay.
PR: I mean I cleaned that thoroughly and I asked Linda to go behind me and vacuum. I mean I picked up every chunk, I mean, because the kids played down there in that back area back there.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And I mean I scoured that place when, cause they were always down there. Burke particularly and the boys would go down there and play with cars and things and uh, there was just a ton of glass everywhere.
TT: Okay.
PR: And I cleaned all that up and then she, she vacuumed a couple of times down there.
TT: To get all the glass.
PR: In the fall yeah cause it was just little, you know, pieces, big pieces, everything.
TT: Do you ever recall getting that window replaced?
PR: Yeah, uh, I can’t remember. I just can’t remember whether I got it replaced or not.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
mmm, now assuming JR's version of events is correct. Also that Patsy's version of events is correct, i.e. she purchased the White Gap Top recently at a local Gap Store, specifically at JonBenet's request!

And if there are fibers from the White Gap Top on the sham and duvet as claimed then both of the above version of events cannot be correct.

This is irrespective of the mode of transfer, primary or secondary.

I conclude given the interval of time passed since JR said he placed the suitcase in the basement, that its his version of events that are inconsistent with the alleged facts.

LS said he wished to discuss the samsonite suitcase with JAR, did he?

.

JR could not have moved the suitcase if it was not in the house at the time, but this is rather easy to check - ask JAR/LHP, so it seems strange that JR would make up that part. Though possibly he didn't know when the suitcase was brought home.

As for fiber evidence itself, John could have transferred the Gap fibers to the duvet by secondary transfer. This would be true even if the top was new out of the package that day. It wouldn't matter how long the suitcase had been in the basement.

JR could have caused the transfer by "test fitting" JB in the suitcase, though I regard this as unlikely as it should be reasonably obvious that she'd be hard to fit in the suitcase even w/o the duvet.

JB could also have transferred the fibers, primarily, if for some reason she'd opened the suitcase, while wearing the GAP top. (Or fi the duvet wasn't in the suitcase earlier in the day)

The fiber evidence really isn't helpful in this case.

I don't know if LE talked to JAR about it or not. I can't recall when he was supposed to have brought it home.

 

[Chrishope]

I found where I read this. Not that it makes a difference but I wanted to find it again
1997-04-03 PR Interrogation by Steve Thomas and Tom Trujillo:

PR: No, I don’t know whether I fixed it or didn’t fix it. I can’t remember even trying to remember that, um, I remember when I got back, uh, in the fall, you know . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .uh, went down there and cleaned up all the glass.
TT: Okay.
PR: I mean I cleaned that thoroughly and I asked Linda to go behind me and vacuum. I mean I picked up every chunk, I mean, because the kids played down there in that back area back there.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And I mean I scoured that place when, cause they were always down there. Burke particularly and the boys would go down there and play with cars and things and uh, there was just a ton of glass everywhere.
TT: Okay.
PR: And I cleaned all that up and then she, she vacuumed a couple of times down there.
TT: To get all the glass.
PR: In the fall yeah cause it was just little, you know, pieces, big pieces, everything.
TT: Do you ever recall getting that window replaced?
PR: Yeah, uh, I can’t remember. I just can’t remember whether I got it replaced or not.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And yet, "months" later, FW finds a piece on the floor and places it on the suitcase.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
All of which might suggest that what you are surveying is the remnants of a prior staging. Hence JR's disinterest in the window, the chair, or the suitcase.

All these items are suspicious by their apparent random presence!


.

Yes, I think we are seeing remnants of prior staging.

JR isn't disinterested in the window, he tells FW and presumably the police (because they ask about it at his later interviews) that the window had been broken months prior when he supposedly forgot his key. He's very keen to make sure the police don't question how an intruder got in/out that window.

 

[Chrishope]

A few more thoughts about the suitcase.

JAR was a student at U of Colorado, Boulder campus. The far end of campus is about a mile from the R's home. But JAR didn't live on campus, he lived (when not at home) in a fraternity house on 14th street. That's right, the Alpha Psi Delta-Chi Psi (Chi Psi) was one street west of the Ramsey home, and just a bit north, almost to Broadway.

Google maps tells me that 1080 14th street is 1/3 of a mile from the Rs home. (BTW, the former R home is now numbered 749 rather than 755)

So, there is no reason to assume the duvet could only be brought home at break time. JAR could shuttle dirty laundry/linens home any time at all. Any day of any week. It's literally a one minute trip by car. And JAR had a car.

Since he had access to two washers at home, and had both a mother and a housekeeper to do laundry for him, it seems quite likely he brought washing home on a regular basis. He may well have used the Samsonite suitcase for that purpose. (Since he was not flying between Chi-Psi and home he would not need to use plastic bags to save weight)

So, the suitcase may have made many trips between the Ramsey home and Chi-Psi. JR may have seen it on one occasion, a few months prior to the murder, and moved it, completely unaware that it had shuttled back and forth several times in the interim. So there may be no inconsistency in JR's version of events. It seems suspicious only because we assume the suitcase couldn't have been home 3 months prior, with JAR in school. But really the suitcase is never more than 1/3 of a mile from home. My guess is when the suitcase wasn't needed it was probably left at home rather than taking up space at the frat house.

This is only a possibility of course. It's not a fact.

We know the suitcase had to be at the Rs home by the 19th, as that's the day JAR flew to Atlanta to be with his birth mother. But there is really no reason it could not have been home earlier.

 

[UKGuy]

I found where I read this. Not that it makes a difference but I wanted to find it again
1997-04-03 PR Interrogation by Steve Thomas and Tom Trujillo:

PR: No, I don’t know whether I fixed it or didn’t fix it. I can’t remember even trying to remember that, um, I remember when I got back, uh, in the fall, you know . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .uh, went down there and cleaned up all the glass.
TT: Okay.
PR: I mean I cleaned that thoroughly and I asked Linda to go behind me and vacuum. I mean I picked up every chunk, I mean, because the kids played down there in that back area back there.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And I mean I scoured that place when, cause they were always down there. Burke particularly and the boys would go down there and play with cars and things and uh, there was just a ton of glass everywhere.
TT: Okay.
PR: And I cleaned all that up and then she, she vacuumed a couple of times down there.
TT: To get all the glass.
PR: In the fall yeah cause it was just little, you know, pieces, big pieces, everything.
TT: Do you ever recall getting that window replaced?
PR: Yeah, uh, I can’t remember. I just can’t remember whether I got it replaced or not.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Charterhouse,
Nice, we have an independent witness: LHP. This is critical since it will demonstrate which account of events is correct.


.

 

[UKGuy]

JR could not have moved the suitcase if it was not in the house at the time, but this is rather easy to check - ask JAR/LHP, so it seems strange that JR would make up that part. Though possibly he didn't know when the suitcase was brought home.

As for fiber evidence itself, John could have transferred the Gap fibers to the duvet by secondary transfer. This would be true even if the top was new out of the package that day. It wouldn't matter how long the suitcase had been in the basement.

JR could have caused the transfer by "test fitting" JB in the suitcase, though I regard this as unlikely as it should be reasonably obvious that she'd be hard to fit in the suitcase even w/o the duvet.

JB could also have transferred the fibers, primarily, if for some reason she'd opened the suitcase, while wearing the GAP top. (Or fi the duvet wasn't in the suitcase earlier in the day)

The fiber evidence really isn't helpful in this case.

I don't know if LE talked to JAR about it or not. I can't recall when he was supposed to have brought it home.

Chrishope,
ITA, has anyone asked JAR/LHP about this?

Regardless of the method of fiber transfer, if JR had moved the suitcases months before JonBenet wore the White Gap Top, then no fibers from any of the relevant objects should be transferred.

If the the objects hold fibers in common then this demonstrates that the suitcase played some role in the death of JonBenet.

The latter conclusion is the important one, but it rests on apparently contentious fiber evidence.

So alike the fiber evidence relating to JR's black shirt, which were allegedly found on JonBenet's body, any proven fiber transfer between the suitcase objects and the White Gap Top, shows how helpful the fiber evidence can be.


.

 

[UKGuy]

A few more thoughts about the suitcase.

JAR was a student at U of Colorado, Boulder campus. The far end of campus is about a mile from the R's home. But JAR didn't live on campus, he lived (when not at home) in a fraternity house on 14th street. That's right, the Alpha Psi Delta-Chi Psi (Chi Psi) was one street west of the Ramsey home, and just a bit north, almost to Broadway.

Google maps tells me that 1080 14th street is 1/3 of a mile from the Rs home. (BTW, the former R home is now numbered 749 rather than 755)

So, there is no reason to assume the duvet could only be brought home at break time. JAR could shuttle dirty laundry/linens home any time at all. Any day of any week. It's literally a one minute trip by car. And JAR had a car.

Since he had access to two washers at home, and had both a mother and a housekeeper to do laundry for him, it seems quite likely he brought washing home on a regular basis. He may well have used the Samsonite suitcase for that purpose. (Since he was not flying between Chi-Psi and home he would not need to use plastic bags to save weight)

So, the suitcase may have made many trips between the Ramsey home and Chi-Psi. JR may have seen it on one occasion, a few months prior to the murder, and moved it, completely unaware that it had shuttled back and forth several times in the interim. So there may be no inconsistency in JR's version of events. It seems suspicious only because we assume the suitcase couldn't have been home 3 months prior, with JAR in school. But really the suitcase is never more than 1/3 of a mile from home. My guess is when the suitcase wasn't needed it was probably left at home rather than taking up space at the frat house.

This is only a possibility of course. It's not a fact.

We know the suitcase had to be at the Rs home by the 19th, as that's the day JAR flew to Atlanta to be with his birth mother. But there is really no reason it could not have been home earlier.

Chrishope,
You are repeating JR's version of events. the only way there can be no inconsistency in JR's version of events is if there has been no fiber transfer!

Alternately no inconsistency may arise if JR is telling the truth but someone else attempted to make use of the suitcase, i.e. stuffing JonBenet into the suitcase, in an attempt to turn the suitcase into a kidnap vehicle?

Also you have to assume JAR used some other method along with another duvet and sham, in the interim period, since the previous pair had vanished?

Assuming JAR/JR are acting in good faith, each having no special agenda, then it appears the suitcase may have been intended to form part of a prior staging which was then abandoned?

Its not the suitcase thats suspicious, its the Dr. Suess book, it should not be in that suitcase in that location on the night JonBenet was killed.


.

 

[midwest mama]

Chrishope,
You are repeating JR's version of events. the only way there can be no inconsistency in JR's version of events is if there has been no fiber transfer!

Alternately no inconsistency may arise if JR is telling the truth but someone else attempted to make use of the suitcase, i.e. stuffing JonBenet into the suitcase, in an attempt to turn the suitcase into a kidnap vehicle?

Also you have to assume JAR used some other method along with another duvet and sham, in the interim period, since the previous pair had vanished?

Assuming JAR/JR are acting in good faith, each having no special agenda, then it appears the suitcase may have been intended to form part of a prior staging which was then abandoned?

Its not the suitcase thats suspicious, its the Dr. Suess book, it should not be in that suitcase in that location on the night JonBenet was killed.


.

Astute comment. This is the item that throws so much out of whack. There is no reason for a college guy who is transporting dirty bedding back from college to have Dr. Seuss tucked in. There are several reasons to think someone wanted to stash that book in the suitcase. Unlike a poster above, I do not think JB would have chosen to tuck away one book in a large, adult suitcase. The latches alone, for small fingers wouldn't be very cooperative, as well as the cumbersome management of the lid.

I have to think the book went into the suitcase in a plan that involved ditching the suitcase somehow. And the title of the book, being protected this long, must have something to do with clues to the crime. Was the book moved from a location in the basement and placed into the suitcase? Before the officers and FW looked through the basement, or after, during the time JR went "missing" in the morning, fearing fingerprints might have been too telling?

 

[DeeDee249]

Charterhouse,
Nice, we have an independent witness: LHP. This is critical since it will demonstrate which account of events is correct.


.

The problem here is that we have only the Rs word about LHP cleaning up the glass. What we need is LHP to say whether she did so. Because we have to assume that anything the Rs say about the crime scene may be a lie, we can't assume we have an eyewitness to the broken glass cleanup....unless the eyewitness says she did it.

 

[DeeDee249]

And yet, "months" later, FW finds a piece on the floor and places it on the suitcase.

That could have happened. I myself have broken a glass, etc, cleaned it all up (so I thought) and then much after the fact found a piece I missed. This is especially true if it was in an area that is not a high-traffic place or an area that is not usually walked around in. This would be the case here- the broken glass was on the floor around a furnace. Although played in on occasion because it had trains set up, the floor near the furnace was not a place that anyone would walk around regularly.

 

[UKGuy]

The problem here is that we have only the Rs word about LHP cleaning up the glass. What we need is LHP to say whether she did so. Because we have to assume that anything the Rs say about the crime scene may be a lie, we can't assume we have an eyewitness to the broken glass cleanup....unless the eyewitness says she did it.

DeeDee249,
Sure and thats why I posted my comment. i.e. we can establish if the R's are telling the truth.

Although JR might get to LHP first with an offer she cannot refuse.


.

 

[UKGuy]

Astute comment. This is the item that throws so much out of whack. There is no reason for a college guy who is transporting dirty bedding back from college to have Dr. Seuss tucked in. There are several reasons to think someone wanted to stash that book in the suitcase. Unlike a poster above, I do not think JB would have chosen to tuck away one book in a large, adult suitcase. The latches alone, for small fingers wouldn't be very cooperative, as well as the cumbersome management of the lid.

I have to think the book went into the suitcase in a plan that involved ditching the suitcase somehow. And the title of the book, being protected this long, must have something to do with clues to the crime. Was the book moved from a location in the basement and placed into the suitcase? Before the officers and FW looked through the basement, or after, during the time JR went "missing" in the morning, fearing fingerprints might have been too telling?

midwest mama,
A minimalist interpretation might be, as you suggest, JR placed the Dr. Suess book into the suitcase to hide it out off sight. Then said he moved the suitcase to explain away his dna and fingerprints etc.

I think it might be possible that the suitcase was used to bring stuff from upstairs down to the basement, i.e. removal of forensic evidence, this might explain the fiber transfer and the Dr. Suess book?

The only topical Dr. Suess book seems to be: How the Grinch Stole Christmas!

I think its safe to assume JAR did not bring the Dr. Suess book back when he returned from University.

For me the Dr. Suess book is alike the size-12 underwear, you can offer some explanation as to why, but then they should not be there at all?


.

 

[Whaleshark]

The problem here is that we have only the Rs word about LHP cleaning up the glass. What we need is LHP to say whether she did so. Because we have to assume that anything the Rs say about the crime scene may be a lie, we can't assume we have an eyewitness to the broken glass cleanup....unless the eyewitness says she did it.

Here's LHP's own words:

"Another thing that made me think Patsy had staged the whole crime was the broken window in the basement. I used to clean their house three times a week. If something was broken, Patsy had me clean it up. On the morning of the murder, police found a broken window in the basement, just a few feet from the room where JonBenet's body was found. John Ramsey told the police that he had broken the window to get into the house months before when he was accidentally locked out. But I think that is a lie. If there had been broken glass in the basement, Patsy would have told me to clean it up. Another thing didn't make sense. John claimed he was locked out on that day when he supposedly broke the window. But he never used a key to come in the front or side door of the house. He always opened the garage door from his car with his remote and came in through the garage entrance. I think Patsy broke that window herself on the night she killed JonBenet to make the police think there had been an intruder, and John concocted the story about breaking the window."
___

....and for what it's worth, I think the Dr Seuss book was actually JAR's... A college gift about his next journey in life "oh the places you'll go"... Read it somewhere...

 

[UKGuy]

Here's LHP's own words:

"Another thing that made me think Patsy had staged the whole crime was the broken window in the basement. I used to clean their house three times a week. If something was broken, Patsy had me clean it up. On the morning of the murder, police found a broken window in the basement, just a few feet from the room where JonBenet's body was found. John Ramsey told the police that he had broken the window to get into the house months before when he was accidentally locked out. But I think that is a lie. If there had been broken glass in the basement, Patsy would have told me to clean it up. Another thing didn't make sense. John claimed he was locked out on that day when he supposedly broke the window. But he never used a key to come in the front or side door of the house. He always opened the garage door from his car with his remote and came in through the garage entrance. I think Patsy broke that window herself on the night she killed JonBenet to make the police think there had been an intruder, and John concocted the story about breaking the window."
___

....and for what it's worth, I think the Dr Seuss book was actually JAR's... A college gift about his next journey in life "oh the places you'll go"... Read it somewhere...

Whaleshark,
Do you have a source for your quote. If true this demonstrates what we all thought anyway. Looks like the broken window was part of a prior staging.

....and for what it's worth, I think the Dr Seuss book was actually JAR's... A college gift about his next journey in life "oh the places you'll go"... Read it somewhere...

Are you saying you read this somewhere?


.

 

[otg]

....and for what it's worth, I think the Dr Seuss book was actually JAR's... A college gift about his next journey in life "oh the places you'll go"... Read it somewhere...

Oh, my, Whaleshark. I think you may be correct on this. I know I spent hours some time ago trying to figure out the significance of the title of any of the Dr. Seuss books, and eventually gave up. But after I read your above statement, I found this:

Dr. Seuss's wonderfully wise graduation speech is the perfect send-off for children starting out in the world, be they nursery, high school, or college grads! With his trademark use of humorous verse and illustrations, Dr. Seuss addresses the the ups and downs life presents while encouraging readers to find the success that lies within them all.

...and this:

I am not sure if Dr. Seuss realized that this particular book would hold deep significance to anyone, or that generations of young people would be given this book as a graduation present. But that is exactly what happened.

...and apparently this is even associated with a Dr. Suess Scholarship:
http://www.college-financial-aid-advice.com/weird-unknown-scholarships.html
http://www.zinch.com/scholarships/oh-places-youll-go-college-scholarship-program

But why would the title of this book be so stridently guarded by BPD if this is indeed the case?

(BTW, much of the book can be previewed here at Google Books.)

 

[dodie20]

Astute comment. This is the item that throws so much out of whack. There is no reason for a college guy who is transporting dirty bedding back from college to have Dr. Seuss tucked in. There are several reasons to think someone wanted to stash that book in the suitcase. Unlike a poster above, I do not think JB would have chosen to tuck away one book in a large, adult suitcase. The latches alone, for small fingers wouldn't be very cooperative, as well as the cumbersome management of the lid.

I have to think the book went into the suitcase in a plan that involved ditching the suitcase somehow. And the title of the book, being protected this long, must have something to do with clues to the crime. Was the book moved from a location in the basement and placed into the suitcase? Before the officers and FW looked through the basement, or after, during the time JR went "missing" in the morning, fearing fingerprints might have been too telling?

I've wracked my brain over this book, but it's useless. Unless they tell us the title, we have no way of knowing. But, as far as I'm concerned, this is what points to the suitcase and contents being involved in the crime. If LE thought the suitcase was there by chance, they would have released the title of the book, wouldn't they? Like was mentioned, the grinch makes the most topical sense, but I was thinking maybe the ABC book, since it's for beginner readers. But, considering it was in a suitcase, what about, 'oh the places you will go', or in a sick twist, ' Hop on Pop'? And since she loved cats, 'The Cat in the Hat', makes sense. Then again, maybe the title holds no significance. Maybe it was inscribed with names and dates-a date that didn't jibe with those 3 months? moo

 

[dodie20]

Oh, my, Whaleshark. I think you may be correct on this. I know I spent hours some time ago trying to figure out the significance of the title of any of the Dr. Seuss books, and eventually gave up. But after I read your above statement, I found this:
...and this:
...and apparently this is even associated with a Dr. Suess Scholarship:
http://www.college-financial-aid-advice.com/weird-unknown-scholarships.html
http://www.zinch.com/scholarships/oh-places-youll-go-college-scholarship-program

But why would the title of this book be so stridently guarded by BPD if this is indeed the case?

(BTW, much of the book can be previewed here at Google Books.)

During the olympics, I watched a Bob Costas interview with Michael Phelps, and Bob quoted 'Oh the Places you will Go'. It was beautiful and made me cry a little, so yes, this book is often used for adult milestones. But, with that said, I'm not sure if this was the case in 1996?

 

[midwest mama]

During the olympics, I watched a Bob Costas interview with Michael Phelps, and Bob quoted 'Oh the Places you will Go'. It was beautiful and made me cry a little, so yes, this book is often used for adult milestones. But, with that said, I'm not sure if this was the case in 1996?

That book was out in the 80's. Could have been it. But here's another Dr. Seuss, for adults, that might have been JAR's. It was originally written in the late 30's, and is one for collectors:
Click to enlarge
Seven Lady Godivas: The True Facts Concerning History's Barest Family [Hardcover]
Dr. Seuss (Author) (review follows)
Begin with seven Lady Godivas and seven Lord Peepings; add the need for each Godiva to come up with a "horse fable" before being able to wed the Peeping to whom she is betrothed and Theodore Geisel has another winner! Definitely for adults but not at all off-colored. Another must for true Dr. Seuss collectors.

 

[Chrishope]

@UKGuy

Regardless of the method of fiber transfer, if JR had moved the suitcases months before JonBenet wore the White Gap Top, then no fibers from any of the relevant objects should be transferred.

He didn't move it out of the house. All that's necessary for fiber transfer is that both objects are in the house at the same time.

If the Gap top was worn for the first time on the 25th, then there would have been relatively little opportunity for primary transfer by JB. But we can't really rule this out as we do not know if the duvet was in the suitcase earlier that day, or that week.

So alike the fiber evidence relating to JR's black shirt, which were allegedly found on JonBenet's body, any proven fiber transfer between the suitcase objects and the White Gap Top, shows how helpful the fiber evidence can be.

I assume that was tongue in cheek. The fiber evidence in this case is useless.

You are repeating JR's version of events. the only way there can be no inconsistency in JR's version of events is if there has been no fiber transfer!

Why? JR could have moved it 3 months prior, then it could have shuttled between the Rs home and Psi-Chi several times w/o John really being aware of that. There is nothing about it being in the basement that prevents fiber transfer.

Alternately no inconsistency may arise if JR is telling the truth but someone else attempted to make use of the suitcase, i.e. stuffing JonBenet into the suitcase, in an attempt to turn the suitcase into a kidnap vehicle?

Thats true but not necessary. There are lots of ways the fibers could transfer, both primary and secondary. Not every one of those ways needs to be related to the crime.

Also you have to assume JAR used some other method along with another duvet and sham, in the interim period, since the previous pair had vanished?

No reason to assume he used any sham/duvet as most 20 year old males don't care a great deal about them. He probably slept the way most college boys do, with a pillow and a blanket.

Assuming JAR/JR are acting in good faith, each having no special agenda, then it appears the suitcase may have been intended to form part of a prior staging which was then abandoned?

I don't really see how it's very useful for staging.

Its not the suitcase thats suspicious, its the Dr. Suess book, it should not be in that suitcase in that location on the night JonBenet was killed.

Actually it's not very suspicious at all. It's a child's book (probably) and kids play with suitcases. The book could have been placed in the suitcase several days prior, so there is no real significance to it's being in there the night of the 25th. Things not being where they are "supposed to be" is just the way life is with kids.