CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #5

[TheRoger]

Bagged evidence maybe? Every evidnece bag i ever saw had a wide red stripe across the top.

 

[MesaVerde]

thanks for the reply mas verde....

I was talking about... " if an employee killed her"....why not move the body out of the hotel through the stairs.

an employee would need to have a large case for the body.....and move it down the stairs / elevator. ( I do believe it would be the best option...but still heavy...that was all I am trying to convey)

but it would look a little suspicious for an employee carrying thier own case/luggage.......is it possible?...of course. would it be heavy?....yes.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be harsh. I hope I didn't come across that way. I know you were just saying it would be heavy. But I just wanted to put in my two cents that it wouldn't be so heavy that it would stop somebody or even pause them to do it. Especially a guy. My ex who did construction (admittedly a very strong guy--looked like a Viking) would have not even broken a sweat.

I think that a short term guest checking out wouldn't have looked that suspicious going through the lobby with a large sized suitcase. But I think an employee or a long-term resident would have drawn great suspicion once the police saw them with a large suitcase on the lobby video cameras.

I think a crafty person would realize that and not choose to basically place a large sign on him that says, "Hey, focus your investigate efforts on me cuz I look guilty as heck!" The water tank was a pretty good idea. The water has probably destroyed a lot of evidence. And believe it or not, he may not have had the stomach for cutting her up and taking her out of the hotel a piece at a time. Sorry, that is totally revolting but I don't know how else to say it. Just because somebody can kill someone doesn't mean they have the disposition to deal with like dismemberment or something on that order. Or they may have just been too lazy to do it that way. Or they didn't want blood in their bathtub. Or like other people said, maybe she was killed on the roof so it was an easy solution.

 

[TheRoger]

Ok yeah looks like gear upon closer inspection.

 

[MesaVerde]

A roof access hatch? Why is this not being discussed!!!!

Probably because there is no such thing.

 

[TheRoger]

Found a better photo and it looks like about 6 orange helmets like one firefighter is seen wearing, and a black duffle or some kind of tarps. FF gear for sure.

 

[TheRoger]

Obviously i'm just trying to find something to go on here so don't mind if i make a few wild questions before i find an answer to discredit it.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Correct me if I am wrong. I think you have thought about this and studied it so probably have a better idea about it than me.

I think with the secrecy, law enforcement is usually trying to somehow protect their "case" for if it should ever go to trial and this protection comes at the expense of finding the killer. I suppose it makes sense in some ways because if they jeopardize their case but catch the killer, the killer might walk.

But it would seem that they should take that chance because finding the guy and losing the trial is better than never finding the guy. If they released everything they knew, somebody might put two and two together and realize that they know something and break the case wide open.

There are, over all cases in my database, several arguments LE all over the world raises in defence of this "secrecy strategy":

1.) Protect the investigation.
That one is bull because in fact, it is nothing else but the summary of their other arguments, so lets rather look at the real arguments.

2.) Protection against SCs
SCs are one nasty side effect of media hypes in serial killer cases. So-called serial confessors pop up and try to claim responsibility for the fifteen minutes of fame. In reality, this is a rather rare effect, but then serial killer cases are rare anyway. The parameters to know when one better calculates in possible SCs are defined and easy to see. The reasoning of LE is, they can only figure an SC by keeping some details secret. Well, they could also use whereabouts, timelines, profiling, but even if one says, details not known to the public identify SCs ... we talk about a little number of details, so this argument is effectively no reason to keep everything a secret.

3.) Protection of innocents
This was at least correct like 20 years ago. Today we live in the internet age. So there is no protection of innocents anyway unless LE says clearly, this person is innocent, we dismissed him as suspect because ... see CPH in the LISK case.

4.) Witness bias protection
One lawyer trick is to claim, witnesses recognize a suspect only because they saw them in the newspapers not because they actually saw them on scene. First of all, in all the cases in my database, I have maybe five or six, in which identification by witness played a role. And I have some hundred in my database, the 25, I show on my website are only the peak of the iceberg. Second, the moment, LE makes an arrest, the photos are anyway in every news outlet, which leads this argument ad absurdum.

5.) To keep the perpetrator in the dark where the investigation is going
Another bull****-argument. LE, bound by all the textbooks are so obvious, to predictable, nobody needs the news to figure what they are doing. To make the problem worse, the BAU (to be exactly BAU-2 and -3) are plundered by counter-terrorism. Means, most current profilers working there have the textbook experience from the academy at Quantico and maybe they read Ann Rule. Well, at least that helps to undertand serial killer cases a little. Much more than what I could recently find in the FBI whitebooks (which reached as of yet unbeknown levels of clichees and platitudes about serial killers). So what was once the craddle of serial killer hunters, the holy grail of profiling, degenerated during the last decade to a kind of rubber stamp profiling factory. The absolute low point was the rubber stamp profile of a white loner in mommy's basement in the case of the Baseline-Killer. When they published their white loner, already three witnesses had stated, the attacker was black (the Haiti-variety, not the Africa one). So, all of that makes them more predictable than a can of soup and therefore, the argument, to keep anyone in the dark, doesn't pull it off.

There are however, some real reasons:

1.) Serial Killers aren't good for tourism
Which is, why every SK case in any area with tourist industry basically puts immediately political attention behind the scenes. And the orders are clear. First they say, no SK is around. And if they can't deny it anymore, they have to play it down, to prevent panic. Which is kind of a joke, we get ten SKs weekly in TV, they have become part of our life anyway. But the same argument weighs in even more when a tourist is killed. The Freeway-Killer, Bonin, since there were three with that nickname, killed a German hitchhiker as one of his early victims. It took weeks till they even told anybody that this one belonged to the same series even they know immediately. Bonin and his cronies had made sure, there is no mistake possible.

2.) SKs make PDs very nervous
All PDs have still this outdated idea of the homicidal genius who knows no fear. Like Hannibal Lecter. There are bright ones, there are really dumb ones, most SKs are rather in a normal IQ range. However, what started as a convenient story, LE told the public to look better if they catch such a guy and to look less bad if they don't, it became the credo for the next generation of LE. They actually believe in the political correct lies of their seniors. And since they assume from the start, the chances to look good in such a case, they start covering up for possible theoretical failure before they even start to look for the killer.

3.) Competition makes PDs nervous
For a PD's public relations department, only one thing is worse than not catching a serial killer. If someone else catches him. Because people ask, why the guys paid for it, can't do it. So protecting the investigation means often protecting it from competition.

4.) Inbred estuary behavior
The keyword is jurisdiction. Every detective knows, where his jursidiction ends. But inside that borders, he is the one, the big cheese, numero uno ... you get the gist. And he will bite everyone, who comes from the outside. Public, people like we here, we are outside.

5.) The Jerry Bruckheimer Syndrome
Everyone thinks, police labs have all those tool toys like in those shows. They don't. Still, they have a lot of tool toys. And the normal police detective believes in those toys. They think in categories of "we have" and anything alese is "amateur". The BAU fights often enough to make PDs even reading their profiles. Because Detectives think, this is just blah and we have DNA now. Well, to use DNA, you need someone to compare it in the first place. And when the whole investigation runs cold because they can't find someone to compare it to, someone has to be blamed. Nobody wants to be blamed and therefore, return to 1.).

If you read the cases on my website, you can see, it's not new to mess up SK cases. I am not so much in single murder cases, so I can't say for sure, whether all of this applies there, but I strongly suspect it. I looked lately in some cold cases. I sit on one, 60 years old, where a suspect is pretty well connected and pinned down (which doesn't matter, he is dead anyway). Only one thing is needed to close the case. One piece of evidence. I know where it is, but I can't get there. Clearwater County Sheriff's Department. And they "can't" release evidence. They don't even return my calls anymore. Because if that case would be closed after 60 years, people would start to ask questions. In another case, I work my way through, the wall of silence, LE put up is far higher and much more impenetrable as the law of silence in the mob. Compared to the average Sheriff in some parts of the country, a drug dealer or a killer is usually a pretty verbose personality.

 

[tapu]

People keep saying this. But as a reference, I have traveled overseas a few times. A couple I was there for over a month. I am ashamed to say that I traveled a little on the heavy side. That means that I carry the max allowance that the airline would allow me without having to pay an upcharge.

And I never took a taxi. I was always public transportation and hoofing it around through many countries. So, yeah, I was dragging one 50 to 55 pound large suitcase plus a 20 to 30 pound carry on plus my LARGE purse which had a camcorder, camera and tons of other crap and probably weighed at least 15 pounds on its own.

Add that all up and I was dragging around about 90 pounds. I am about Elisa Lam's height and weight. I dragged that about two miles to get from the Underground to a youth hostel in London once. Part of the way was up a really nasty, steep hill. I also lugged that up and down steps when I needed to by strapping the carry-on case to the larger suitcase.

So if I (slender female) can drag 90 pounds two miles and up a hill, then a regular sized guy can lug a 115 pound woman down some stairs or up some stairs.

I am just really weirded out by this idea that a dude can't carry her. Sorry, just don't get it. Have I just dated strong guys? I always thought I dated pretty normal sized American guys. If a guy told me he couldn't get me up or down some stairs, I would like laugh at him. I might not laugh in his face but I would laugh inside quite a bit. I would make an exception for a tiny little 100 pound guy--like one of those skinny little metrosexual skinny jean wearing French guys that we saw all over Paris. My boyfriend commented about it quite a bit. He got a complex and started saying he was fat. I was like, honey, they look like girls. Really, I could beat most of them up. I like you just the way you are--a big strong, red blooded American boy. Nothing wrong with you. If a regular American guy said he couldn't carry a small girl down some stairs if he had to, seriously, I would really look at him funny.

I make an exception for Stephen Hawking and other sickly but intelligent men. I'll make an exception for scrawny and sickly men in general. But a regular guy should be able to do it.

... that was 2 minutes of my life I can never get back...

 

[TheRoger]

I'm wondering if anything can be deduced from the rooftop investigation pics?

There appears to be a piece of clothing on the ground in the area of the ac untis/red canopy and a blue book is visible in some photos. All of the ivestigation photos the police seem to be focusing on the AC/red canopy area. The investigators are seen focusing around this area in most photos. Also a pole tent is later seen erected near this area and it looks like they examine the body under there.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be harsh. I hope I didn't come across that way. I know you were just saying it would be heavy. But I just wanted to put in my two cents that it wouldn't be so heavy that it would stop somebody or even pause them to do it. Especially a guy. My ex who did construction (admittedly a very strong guy--looked like a Viking) would have not even broken a sweat.

I think that a short term guest checking out wouldn't have looked that suspicious going through the lobby with a large sized suitcase. But I think an employee or a long-term resident would have drawn great suspicion once the police saw them with a large suitcase on the lobby video cameras.

I think a crafty person would realize that and not choose to basically place a large sign on him that says, "Hey, focus your investigate efforts on me cuz I look guilty as heck!" The water tank was a pretty good idea. The water has probably destroyed a lot of evidence. And believe it or not, he may not have had the stomach for cutting her up and taking her out of the hotel a piece at a time. Sorry, that is totally revolting but I don't know how else to say it. Just because somebody can kill someone doesn't mean they have the disposition to deal with like dismemberment or something on that order. Or they may have just been too lazy to do it that way. Or they didn't want blood in their bathtub. Or like other people said, maybe she was killed on the roof so it was an easy solution.

no not at all...( and i wouldn't really care if someone was harsh...as people get caught up in things that intrigue them....and I prefer it that way...vs not caring)

- anyways......back OT

- my thoughts , Im not arguing whether it's possible for an average person to get a 115lbs body down the stairs....it is possible. ( again I was thinking why the perp didn't carry the body away from the hotel.....weight + hiding it posed major problems)

I guess my thoughts are really obvious...cheers.

 

[MesaVerde]

Obviously i'm just trying to find something to go on here so don't mind if i make a few wild questions before i find an answer to discredit it.

brainstorming is a good thing. I can tell you are doing that. Every group needs a brainstormer. And somebody to bring cupcakes. I got that.

 

[MesaVerde]

- my thoughts , Im not arguing whether it's possible for an average person to get a 115lbs body down the stairs....it is possible. ( again I was thinking why the perp didn't carry the body away from the hotel.....weight + hiding it posed major problems)

I guess my thoughts are really obvious...cheers.

Oh, yes, I see what you mean. Especially if it is someone without a car. They would have had to take it quite a distance maybe to get a good hiding place. It would be easier in a more rural location and for somebody with a car.

 

[Godsdog]

Isn't it just more logical to assume she somehow ended up atop the water tank alive?

 

[MesaVerde]

... that was 2 minutes of my life I can never get back...

Well, I've tried just saying before that a guy can carry 115 pounds but that didn't seem to be good enough.

Take a two minute shorter shower tomorrow morning to make up for it.

 

[Godsdog]

EL was last seen alive.
She was found in the water tank dead.
The lid to the tank was closed when she was found.
The police said there were no marks on her body indicating foul play.

The conclusion with the least amount of assumptions is that she entered the tank alive, or was killed at that location, and was put inside by someone else.

 

[TheRoger]

I seem to recall seeing a photo of that room which contained not much earlier on in these boards, from a chinese sleuth.

 

[MesaVerde]

"secrecy strategy":

That post about the reasons for secrecy was really eye opening. Thank you so much for explaining it. It was a really well done explanation as well. Really thorough. I want to see your website. I hadn't realized you had one.

 

[noodled1]

So the hatch might lead to more like a crawlspace? But could you crawl through the crawl space and then drop down into the hotel through a ceiling panel somewhere?

How do you use a vertical fire escape chute? Does it spiral inside? Can anybody go down it anytime? I sort of want to try it now.

there could be a ladder inside the tube or if it's one from the fifties there could be canvas tubes inside. you know how a basketball net slows the ball down after going through the hoop, imagine a bunch of canvas sheets inside that form tubes that slow your decent.

there's modern versions of the same things still being built for high rises, but from searching the history that one looks like it's from quite awhile ago.

I even found links to some that were angled that were big enough to put a mattress in for evacuating hospital patients that couldn't be moved..

 

[TheRoger]

What happened to the chinese rooftop photos? Was looking back and cant find them. There was links to a bunch of rooftop photos taken by amateur chinese investigators. Including inside the double door maintenace room, graffito, cig butts, empty beer bottles, the fire escape ladder. There was also a google translation of their comments about the difficulty in using the fire escape (vertical ladder made from 1/2 inch steel round bar) and that the maintenance room was unlocked.

 

[Godsdog]

That lid is only made of galvanized sheet metal, might weigh a pound at the most. A gust of wind could shut it.

I would say that's doubtful. I believe I read or heard that it was a hinged lid, and those old heavy metal hinges get pretty stiff.