Hotel Cecil Rooftop Access Discussion

- respectfully snipped.....and thanks for the reply.

- ( my random thoughts) I thought about the stairs as a option.

- The Main thing that swayed me from thinking about the perp using the stairs was the weight of the body.It may not seem like alot...but carrying a 115 lbs on your shoulder/back/curling it down 2 - 14 flights of stairs is very hard for an average person.

- 2nd....If it was an employee...what would the perp have access to to put the Body in/hide the body down the stairs.

# garbage bags - a huge 60 gallon garbage bag is roughly 3 1/2' high...he would need at least 2 garbage bags.....it would be pretty clear that the shape of the bags would be a body ( if perp was seen)

# 60 gallon garbage can/tub...( I haven't tried it...but a 60 gallon can looks big enough to transport a body of EL size) pulling a 60 gallon garbage can/tub down the stairs would look suspicious if the perp was seen...also create alot of noise ( not sure if that would matter in a hotel)


# Rolling cart - adds another 20 - 30lbs at least...makes a ton of noise...taking a rolling cart down stairs would be very loud and draw lots of attention if seen.

# large suit case - probably the best option, wouldn't look as suspicious,but it would still be very hard to carry.

# roll of plastic sheeting - I think it would look very suspicious carrying a body in a roll of plastic ( if perp was ever seen)

again, if the perp thought there was a chance of being seen, Perp had to have a way of hiding the body....

- Lastly the serveillance cameras most recorders have outlets for at least 4 - 5 camera's.....some have outlets for 10 - 15 camera's.

- we need to know how many camera's are in the hotel....and where they are set up.


- If the Hotel had cameras on the Lobby area or near the exterior exits...an employee would know that and not want to be on camera with a Body size container.

- If I was setting up the security camera's....I would have placed them at each entry/exit of the hotels 1st floor/lobby. (I wish we knew where there were located)

again...I'm just going through my head why the body was in a tank on the roof....

there are many reasons why it wasn't an employee also....thanks for the spark of convo!:great:

:twocents:

You know, Jeffrey Dahmer killed a guy in a hotel once? And then he thought "Oh sh**! How to handle this?". So he went out, bought a big chest, put the body in it and employed the help of an unknowing hotel employee to get that thing out of the hotel, just like any other big piece of luggage. People are not that observant.
 
Does anyone know the date of the original LAPD rooftop search of the Cecil? The one that occurred when EL was still listed as a missing person, during the Chris Dorner hunt?
 
There's been so much discussion in these threads about transporting a body to the roof and into the water tank. In my opinion that just underlines the fact that such an undertaking would be complicated at the least.

But why are we not considering the easiest, most obvious explanation?

The most obvious explanation, in my opinion, is that EL proceeded to the top of the water tank alive, either through convincing, coercing, or forcing from another.

The police officer in the video states that he believed they didn't see reason to search inside the water tank because it was closed. Therefore, it seems most likely that they didn't investigate the top of the water tanks either.

If she was led up the red staircase to the red ladder and then from the roof of the small building to the water tanks, is it not possible that her scent wouldn't have been picked up by the dogs? Would the LAPD have lifted the dogs onto the roof of the two story building? If the water tanks weren't a consideration of theirs I can see how they may have neglected that area as well.

And finally, why were the police on the roof for that initial investigation? Did a scent from inside lead the dogs to either a fire escape or the rooftop doorway?

The more and more I look at this the more I think that she was led, convinced, coerced or forced, alive, to the top of the water tanks and was then either suffocated or forced alive into the tank.

I think the fact that the tank was most probably closed at the time of the initial rooftop investigation, as the officer stated, which makes it more likely that she did not go alone into that tank.
 
Probably because there is no such thing.

I'm pretty sure it's a roof access hatch( looks to be 100% a roof hatch...whether or not the hotel still access ladders on it is another question)...I will try and make a video of one up close and post it later today.( many times they are fit with an alarm/pad lock to prevent people from opening them.

MBAccessHatch.jpg


887-9.jpg
 
I'm pretty sure it's a roof access hatch( looks to be 100% a roof hatch...whether or not the hotel still access ladders on it is another question)...I will try and make a video of one up close and post it later today.

That is interesting. I had never heard of such a thing. I guess there is a collapsible ladder that goes down from it that you can pull down? Where would one generally lead? I mean, you would climb down the ladder to a utility room or something? Wow. Hey, why haven't we been talking about that? :)
 
That is interesting. I had never heard of such a thing. Where would one generally lead? Wow. Hey, why haven't we been talking about that? :)

any room in the top floor could have them....

I am assuming they are at the end of a hallway or in a supply closet/room.

again...many times they are fitted with a alarm or lock...( who knows if the hotel had any of these things)
 
Look at the photo on the top of this page. The red/orange blob near the firefighter looks a lot different.

Anyone stay at this hotel? Dead body found in WATER TANK... - Mustang Forum - Mustang World

Also this photo must have been taken early on as the tent has not been set up yet. in the right center looks like they are standing around a focal point of that small red canopy. Also some tarps or textiles of some sort are ont he ground under the AC unit. Also a 2x6 and some broken piping/antennas are visible in the photo.

What room is behind those doors under the equipment room? It was locked when the Chinese group went up to the roof to investigate.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/861436_10151263021342452_949708978_o.jpg
 
There's been so much discussion in these threads about transporting a body to the roof and into the water tank. In my opinion that just underlines the fact that such an undertaking would be complicated at the least.

But why are we not considering the easiest, most obvious explanation?

The most obvious explanation, in my opinion, is that EL proceeded to the top of the water tank alive, either through convincing, coercing, or forcing from another.
The police officer in the video states that he believed they didn't see reason to search inside the water tank because it was closed. Therefore, it seems most likely that they didn't investigate the top of the water tanks either.

If she was led up the red staircase to the red ladder and then from the roof of the small building to the water tanks, is it not possible that her scent wouldn't have been picked up by the dogs? Would the LAPD have lifted the dogs onto the roof of the two story building? If the water tanks weren't a consideration of theirs I can see how they may have neglected that area as well.

And finally, why were the police on the roof for that initial investigation? Did a scent from inside lead the dogs to either a fire escape or the rooftop doorway?

The more and more I look at this the more I think that she was led, convinced, coerced or forced, alive, to the top of the water tanks and was then either suffocated or forced alive into the tank.

I think the fact that the tank was most probably closed at the time of the initial rooftop investigation, as the officer stated, which makes it more likely that she did not go alone into that tank.

This may be the most likely scenario....

Hopefully someone spotted her with the other person.
 
That is interesting. I had never heard of such a thing. I guess there is a collapsible ladder that goes down from it that you can pull down? Where would one generally lead? I mean, you would climb down the ladder to a utility room or something? Wow. Hey, why haven't we been talking about that? :)


Probably no ladder, could be but probably not. I rented part of a three story building a few years back, there was a hatch very similar to that one that led to a crawl space for servicing electrical and the plumbing for the overhead sprinkler system.

btw in that pic you'll see a large tube painted the same color as the building on the central wing, that's a vertical fire escape chute.
 
What room is behind those doors under the equipment room? It was locked when the Chinese group went up to the roof to investigate.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/861436_10151263021342452_949708978_o.jpg

from looking at pics about elevator mechanical rooms it's probably access to the elevators. that shack is two stories tall, the top houses the motors for the elevators the lower room is where you would have access to servicing the elevators themselves.
 
Probably no ladder, could be but probably not. I rented part of a three story building a few years back, there was a hatch very similar to that one that led to a crawl space for servicing electrical and the plumbing for the overhead sprinkler system.

btw in that pic you'll see a large tube painted the same color as the building on the central wing, that's a vertical fire escape chute.

So the hatch might lead to more like a crawlspace? But could you crawl through the crawl space and then drop down into the hotel through a ceiling panel somewhere?

How do you use a vertical fire escape chute? Does it spiral inside? Can anybody go down it anytime? I sort of want to try it now.

Ok, wow, I just saw a cloth one on youtube. Is the one on the side of the building a permanent one then? Do you think it is locked? What good is it if it is locked?
 
I keep wondering about this. Is it standard procedure for the police to check a hotel roof in a search for a missing person? The LAPD stated that they didn't search every room so what led them to the roof?

My guess is that, because she was last caught on video on the 14th floor, the police investigated that floor.

I'm again guessing, (Yes, my own opinion), that the police dogs picked up her scent on that floor, and that that scent led them either to a fire escape or the stairs leading to rooftop access.

Again this seems to imply that she was led or taken immediately to the rooftop, and not killed and transported there by any of the complicated means people are imagining.

Once on the roof the police dogs lost track of the scent, perhaps because of recent rains, perhaps because her visit was so quick and so slight that not enough evidence was left behind, or a combination of the two reasons.

They didn't inspect the top of the tanks because they couldn't imagine any reason that she would be in the tanks, so no evidence of her presence there was found. (as someone else said: :banghead: )

Once atop the tanks she was either killed or forced alive into the tank.

:moo:
 
So the hatch might lead to more like a crawlspace? But could you crawl through the crawl space and then drop down into the hotel through a ceiling panel somewhere?

How do you use a vertical fire escape chute? Does it spiral inside? Can anybody go down it anytime? I sort of want to try it now.

You would have to see what kind of ceiling the area with the ladder had...

if it was a drop ceiling( tile) it may look like..

17593878583_CnPjp.jpg


sometimes the hatch does not have a ladder....so you would have to have an emergency ladder ( or any ladder) to access it.

- in a supply closet it may have a permanent ladder...with no ceiling covering it...like>>>
np64718_5.jpg



- sometimes they are completley covered up with a ceiling panel.....you would have to know exactly where it is to get to it.

- I got to look at video of the inside of the Cecil to get a better idea.
 
Just to clarify, I'm not arguing that someone carried EL up either the wooden ladder propped against the cistern or the ladder that goes up the front of the service room. From the Youtube video I reposted, it appears that the video maker is implying that it is quite difficult to carry a dummy (probably similar to dead weight) of 90lbs (ie: 25lbs less than EL's weight) up a short ladder, and it was impossible to carry up the tall vertical ladder (for the re-enacted 6' 200lbs perp.)

Given the amount of information I've seen so far, I'm still open to a good number of the possibilities that have been presented, such as EL going in herself (voluntarily or coerced), someone carrying her (conscious or unconscious), or two or more people carrying her (conscious or unconscious.)

I think until we get more concrete evidence, we're left to being open minded and thinking through different scenarios and possibilities. eg: if X were to have been the situation, then A, B, C, etc. would have needed to happen.


Mesaverde and Samevo8 have made convincing arguments that an average size guy could have carried a petite LE up two ladders to the water tank. However, have we eliminated the confounding variable of what is known as "dead weight"? It refers to how the weight of a person seems so much more when unconscious or dead. In reality, we know a person does not weigh more, but it feels so to the person trying to lift them. When carrying a person who is non-responsive to being moved, it is much harder to balance and distribute their weight, so all the floppiness works against you. I am sure Newton has a law for this but no clue which one it is.

So...yes adrenaline and focus are great motivators, but is it enough? It seems to me if she were already deceased or unconscious, offering no weight resistance, she would have gotten banged up and bruised along the way when she was carried, yet the coroner reports no visible marks? I just don't think the perp would have been able to carry her up to the tank without leaving any bumps or bruises. This has me leaning toward her being alive at the time
 
The door at :06 on the above video.... is that where the stairs/door with alarm to roof access leads to? Or do those stairs and alarmed door lead to the big room in the middle of the roof? Confused, sorry.

I think so.....( i'm still trying to process all the photo/videos on the net)

I believe some people took photos of the sairway roof access and it led to that door.


20130226111720234008.jpg


reading some of the police reports....It was supposed to be a secured/alarmed door ( not sure if it was locked though)
 

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