CA CA - San Dimas, Wht/HispMale 871UMCA, 4-8, buried in San Gabriel Mtns, Oct'79

ctaylor

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I could not find a thread in this forum for this little boy but came across a new article from October with some slightly extra info than on his Doe Network page. Thought I would start a thread to see if any of you guys can find any connections

http://doenetwork.org/cases/871umca.html
871UMCA.jpg


Unidentified White or Hispanic Male

The victim was discovered on October 2, 1979 in San Dimas, Los Angeles County, California
Estimated Date of Death: 2 weeks prior to discovery

Vital Statistics

Estimated age: 4-6 years old
Approximate Height and Weight: 3'8" (112 cm); 40 lbs (18 kg).
Dentals: Available. No restorations.

Case History
The victim was located near Glendora Mountain Road in San Dimas, California on October 2, 1979.

And a recent article on the case - http://www.sgvtribune.com/news/ci_19019398

The boy in the forest

32 years later, identity of boy's body found along Glendora Mountain Road still a mystery

By Ruby Gonzales, Staff Writer
Posted: 10/01/2011 07:10:55 AM PDT

ANGELES NATIONAL FOREST - On a Tuesday afternoon 32 years ago, a motorcyclist stopped on the side of Glendora Mountain Road for a quick break and made a grisly discovery.

In a grave 18 inches deep lay the remains of a little boy.

Craig Harvey, spokesman for the Los Angeles County Department of the Coroner, said the body was decomposed but still had some skin. Animals had been digging up the grave as well.

The coroner estimated the boy, tagged John Doe #347, died approximately two weeks before his body was discovered.

Harvey said because of the decomposition and missing tissue, the cause of death was undetermined.

However, detectives suspect the boy may have met foul play.

"It would appear it was criminal. Circumstances suggest homicide," said Sheriff's Sgt. Paul Mondry , who works in the department's Cold Case unit.

Mondry declined to discuss details of why he suspects homicide.

For the past three decades, investigators have tried to identify the remains.

....
 
According to Yahoo Maps and directions, it is about 44 miles from where the unidentified child was found near Glendora Mountain Rd in San Dimas to the corner of E Chestnut Ave and S Lyon St in Santa Ana where Charles Christopher Francis was last seen by his father. I wonder if LE at the time checked into the possibility that Charles Francis could be the unidentified boy?
 
I e-mailed the LA County Coroner inquiring if the unidentified little boy from San Dimas had ever been compared with Charles Christopher Francis the day before yesterday. So far, I haven't heard back from them.
 
I have always been interested in this unidentified little boy too.Please let us know what you find out ok?
 
I never heard back about a possible match between Charles Christopher Francis and the little boy in Glendora, but after rereading the article that Ctaylor provided a link for, it sounds like LE looked into the UID being Charles Francis and Cary Daniel Sayegh https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/6632/20, unless I am reading too much into --

...other law enforcement agencies from Santa Ana and Las Vegas made inquiries in 2008 and 2009 to see if the case might match cold cases in their jurisdictions, according to Mondry.

But so far, the boy remains unidentified.

NamUs still doesn't list any rule outs, so I wonder if it is a case of not having anything to compare the UID with the two missing boys or if Charles Francis and Cary Sayegh have been ruled out but that information was not entered into NamUs for some reason or another?
 
The more I look at the clay reconstruction, the more I think that this little guy looks like Cary Daniel Sayegh, than Charles Christopher Francis, but if LE has looked at both of them (as the article says), I guess the unidentified little boy is probably not him. That said, where he was found off of Glendora Mountain Road is probably only a couple hours of a drive from Las Vegas and would probably be easily accessible for a person taking I-15 to the 210 route to go from Las Vegas to southern California. I don't know if the 210 was open in 1979, though; you might have had to take I-15 to the I-10 back then?
sayegh_cary.jpg
871UMCA.jpg

More information about Cary --
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/93dmnv.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/sayegh_cary.html
 
The more I look at the clay reconstruction, the more I think that this little guy looks like Cary Daniel Sayegh, than Charles Christopher Francis, but if LE has looked at both of them (as the article says), I guess the unidentified little boy is probably not him. That said, where he was found off of Glendora Mountain Road is probably only a couple hours of a drive from Las Vegas and would probably be easily accessible for a person taking I-15 to the 210 route to go from Las Vegas to southern California. I don't know if the 210 was open in 1979, though; you might have had to take I-15 to the I-10 back then?
sayegh_cary.jpg
871UMCA.jpg

More information about Cary --
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/93dmnv.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/sayegh_cary.html

The portion of the 210 Freeway that runs from the 57 Freeway in Glendora to the I-15 in Fontana was open in 2003. Before that, to get from Las Vegas to Glendora (via Freeways) you had to take the I-15 to the I-10 west to get to the 57 North toward Glendora.
 
The National Centers for Missing and Exploited Children website has a composite sketch for this young boy that I haven't seen before (neither the new sketch or the clay reconstruction are shown on his NamUs page) --
NCMU1110800c1.jpg

http://www.missingkids.com/poster/NCMU/1110800/1#poster

Although the NCMEC says that the boy is Hispanic and newspaper articles imply that he's been looked at (NamUs still doesn't list any exclusions), I think that the sketch looks a lot like Cary Sayegh. There is also a possibility that the unidentified child was never reported missing.
 
The portion of the 210 Freeway that runs from the 57 Freeway in Glendora to the I-15 in Fontana was open in 2003. Before that, to get from Las Vegas to Glendora (via Freeways) you had to take the I-15 to the I-10 west to get to the 57 North toward Glendora.

also, the case history seems to indicate this boy's body (cary) would be sealed in a drum.
 
I really do think The Cary Sayegh connection should be looked at, although we do need to see if his DNA submission is complete. Plus, I think this kid should have a NamUs profile.
 
Looks like the case hasn't gotten much attention in the digital age. Does the county have funding to exhume this UID?
 
billysena-and-up4397.jpg

BBM
Billy Sena and his cousin, Mary Lou, disappeared from Albuquerque, NM. There are theories ranging from runaways to accident to stranger abduction and even that they've been murdered and buried. Michael Cordova, Billy's mom's live-in b/f at the time, and Liza Ramirez who lived w/ Cordova in 1979 (I dunno, don't ask me.:confused:) have been named as a POIs. Apparently neither Michael or Liza have ever been located and neither have the 2 MPs. A forest 12 hours away in CA would be a good place to attempt to hide a body, imo. :)

Mary Lou and Billy disappeared on 22 Sep 1979, 10 days before these remains were found (2 Oct 1970). LE believes JD had been buried there approx 2 weeks before he was discovered. Billy(11) is 3 years older than JD's estimated age of 3-8. But, how possible is it that Billy was simply a smaller 11yo. or that JD was older than 8? o_O

Billy's stats on NamUs and CharleyProject are off significantly, imo. There's a difference of 5" in height and 35 lb in weight between Billy's two profiles. How do we know which one or whether either are correct?:confused: Now on to height. At 4'8" Billy is still 1' taller than JD. That's a lot of height to explain away, imo, but what about the discrepancy in Billy's profiles? Again, how do we know Billy's true height isn't even shorter than 4'8"? And JD's height is estimated as well. Could any of that explain away a 12" height difference?

Okay...that's Billy's story. John Doe also has a bit of a weight discrepancy. NamUs shows 27 lbs. but DoeNetwork shows 35-45 lbs. A diff of 8 lbs. on the lower end making JD's estimated weight 27-45lbs. :) This is important to the math we're gettin' ready to do...so hang in there with me pls. :D:p

I guess we can't know the true weights of either Billy or JD so I'll work with the smaller size stated for Billy (65lbs.) and largest for JD (45lbs.). If a 65-lb body decomposes, approx how much will the body weigh in 2 weeks? Is a 20 pound difference in weight unreasonable? Also, does JD's est weight include the unrecovered hand(s) and limb(s)? o_O

:) I know this is a lot and I also know I'm making a ton of assumptions:oops:, but there's a reason Billy hasn't been found and a reason JD still doesn't have his name back. Are these mistakes/discrepancies/estimates muddying things up enough to stop a case from being solved? Does anyone besides me think these cases are worthy of a comparison?

Billy (11yo):
NamUs - Height 5' 1" (61 Inches) Weight 100 lbs
Charley - 4'8, 65 pounds

John Doe (3-8yo):
NamUs - Height 3' 8"(44 inches) , Estimated Weight 27 lbs, Measured
Doe Network - Height: 3'8" Weight: 35 to 45 lbs.

Inventory of Remains - One or more limbs not recovered One or both hands not recovered
Condition of Remains - Not recognizable - Partial remains with soft tissues

871UMCA
Billy Sena – The Charley Project
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
billysena-and-up4397
 
Last edited:
@YaYa_521 I trust your instincts whether to pursue Billy as a possible match.

Just doing some math on the little John Doe, because his stats are so low.

If Namus' stats are correct, 3' 8" tall and 27 lbs would mean that this child was literally starving for food.
Doe Network's stats are a little better, with anything under 38 lbs being underweight.

I get the feeling that this little John Doe was very frail prior to death. :(
 
billysena-and-up4397.jpg

BBM
Billy Sena and his cousin, Mary Lou, disappeared from Albuquerque, NM. There are theories ranging from runaways to accident to stranger abduction and even that they've been murdered and buried. Michael Cordova, Billy's mom's live-in b/f at the time, and Liza Ramirez who lived w/ Cordova in 1979 (I dunno, don't ask me.:confused:) have been named as a POIs. Apparently neither Michael or Liza have ever been located and neither have the 2 MPs. A forest 12 hours away in CA would be a good place to attempt to hide a body, imo. :)

Mary Lou and Billy disappeared on 22 Sep 1979, 10 days before these remains were found (2 Oct 1970). LE believes JD had been buried there approx 2 weeks before he was discovered. Billy(11) is 3 years older than JD's estimated age of 3-8. But, how possible is it that Billy was simply a smaller 11yo. or that JD was older than 8? o_O

Billy's stats on NamUs and CharleyProject are off significantly, imo. There's a difference of 5" in height and 35 lb in weight between Billy's two profiles. How do we know which one or whether either are correct?:confused: Now on to height. At 4'8" Billy is still 1' taller than JD. That's a lot of height to explain away, imo, but what about the discrepancy in Billy's profiles? Again, how do we know Billy's true height isn't even shorter than 4'8"? And JD's height is estimated as well. Could any of that explain away a 12" height difference?

Okay...that's Billy's story. John Doe also has a bit of a weight discrepancy. NamUs shows 27 lbs. but DoeNetwork shows 35-45 lbs. A diff of 8 lbs. on the lower end making JD's estimated weight 27-45lbs. :) This is important to the math we're gettin' ready to do...so hang in there with me pls. :D:p

I guess we can't know the true weights of either Billy or JD so I'll work with the smaller size stated for Billy (65lbs.) and largest for JD (45lbs.). If a 65-lb body decomposes, approx how much will the body weigh in 2 weeks? Is a 20 pound difference in weight unreasonable? Also, does JD's est weight include the unrecovered hand(s) and limb(s)? o_O

:) I know this is a lot and I also know I'm making a ton of assumptions:oops:, but there's a reason Billy hasn't been found and a reason JD still doesn't have his name back. Are these mistakes/discrepancies/estimates muddying things up enough to stop a case from being solved? Does anyone besides me think these cases are worthy of a comparison?

Billy (11yo):
NamUs - Height 5' 1" (61 Inches) Weight 100 lbs
Charley - 4'8, 65 pounds

John Doe (3-8yo):
NamUs - Height 3' 8"(44 inches) , Estimated Weight 27 lbs, Measured
Doe Network - Height: 3'8" Weight: 35 to 45 lbs.

Inventory of Remains - One or more limbs not recovered One or both hands not recovered
Condition of Remains - Not recognizable - Partial remains with soft tissues

871UMCA
Billy Sena – The Charley Project
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
billysena-and-up4397
(RSBM)

I know this is a lot and I also know I'm making a ton of assumptions:oops:, but there's a reason Billy hasn't been found and a reason JD still doesn't have his name back. Are these mistakes/discrepancies/estimates muddying things up enough to stop a case from being solved?

I live by this! It’s why I have some pretty wild theories sometimes. If things were perfect and always accurate and matched up, we wouldn’t be doing what we are right now. Sometimes we have to think outside the box. I appreciate you doing that! :)

That being said, when I first saw this little boy I knew he looked familiar, I just couldn’t place it. Then I saw your post and Billy and immediately remembered who the little boy reminded me of. My gut tells me it’s not Billy, BUT there are as many reasons it could be him as there are that it isn’t.

If it’s close, I’m always going to say submit! There’s absolutely nothing to lose and possibly a lot to gain!
 
@MadMcGoo @coffeeandacig @Melt71
Thanks so much to each of you for replying! I get so tongue-tied on these boards that I often hesitate to post my theories or hunches. I get to feeling as though you all will think I'm utterly stupid for making some of these suggestions:oops:, but then there's the feeling in my gut that pushes me to pursue a potential match, especially when there are so many uncertainties in the information we have to work with.:confused: This is one of those cases. :) Then there's the whole idea that we don't want to bombard LE with PM submissions that really aren't worthy of a comparison. So trying to keep the balance is always at the front of my mind. I don't want NamUs or anyone else to see my email addy only to say :eek: "Oh, goodness, it's her again. I'm not even opening the mail." :p:D

I will contact authorities on both Billy and JD's case. @Melt71 is right...maybe it will encourage them to give these cases another look and more resources. Thanks again, and of course, I'll update the thread as warranted. ;)
 

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