GUILTY OH - Steubenville Rape Case, 11 Aug 2012 #2

With respect-I think you misread my post. I was responding to someone who had mentioned that the boys thought they would get off DURING and LEADING UP to the trial and they were "surprised" they got convicted. Apparently, one of the boys planned to hit Wendy's after the trial.

If you read any of my previous posts on this forum, you will realize that I am absolutely POSITIVE that these boys knew what they did was WRONG, it was RAPE, and was against the law.

My comment was only that because they had their lawyers, their parents, their coaches, etc...tell them they hand't done anything wrong, it was the girl's fault, they wouldn't get convicted, etc...that they felt that the judge would also be fooled into thinking the same.

My post was ONLY about their belief that they wouldn't be convicted. NOT that they didn't realize they had done anything wrong.

I hope I've clarified this correctly.

I DO NOT WANT TO BE INTERPRETED AS TO BEING A RAPE APOLOGIST IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM!!!

ETA: Good grief!!! I just looked back and I had actually responded to YOUR POST!!! How in the world did you take what I responded to you in your post as anything close to what you just accused me of thinking??? Where in my post does it say anything that the boys didn't think they did anything wrong??? Please look back through this thread and find me one poster that isn't as vocal as I have been on this case and my passion about this case. I am really quite offended that you would call me out like that without even reading everything I have posted.

I will chalk it up to the fact that you are just as infuriated and I am about this case. We are both on the same side of this.

No, no. I was just saying that I don't buy that anyone told them their behaviors were acceptable (maybe the coach). I think they thought that they would get off because they are arrogant jerks and only played the "we didn't know what we were doing wrong" as a sob story. I didn't mean to insinuate otherwise, I was more less just trying to add to your comment.

:truce: :)
 
H Family media statement regarding their family and home's (non)involvement in the crimes and other events of August 11 & 12 2012: http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/...dited_media_statement_from_Howarth_family.pdf

Poor me. Poor us. Our poor J poo.

What about where they say a couple boys came back to the house and that's when the video was taken of all the disgusting rape talk. J and all of his innocent friends ultimately knew about that, right...even if J came in towards the end of the video. AND ALL CHOSE TO STAND BY AND SAY OR DO NOTHING AT ALL. Yes, what respectable young men. <insert sarcasm>

ETA: This family is still making excuses for these rapists!!! Saying that underage drinking leads to miscommunication/sexual activity is basically insinuating this girl was sending mixed messages because she was intoxicated - and says nothing to the fact that these boys entirely took advantage of this girl and had a hay day (video/pics/tweets) doing so. That has nothing to do with alcohol and everything to do with HUMAN DECENCY!!

Now I must leave this thread as it's too early in the day for my blood pressure to be at this level. LOL :)
 
IMO, rather than blame the vehicle (social media) he should have addressed the intentions of those using it. Bullying, shaming and humiliating a victim. Social media, after all, is what was used by LE to bring justice to this girl.

I dont think he meant to blame social media itself. Its just a tool. But blaming the irresponsible use of it. While the video and photos and texts/tweets were used by LE, they were not made for the purpose of helping LE; they were made for the enterainment of those kids. Social media and communicating that way has led kids (all people) to become sort of detached from reality. In my opinion they tend to see things like this rape as something to video and post, or to watch on their phone or computer as if its some sort of TV show. We need to start being aware of how this affecting young people and what the consequences of it are.
 
No, no. I was just saying that I don't buy that anyone told them their behaviors were acceptable (maybe the coach). I think they thought that they would get off because they are arrogant jerks and only played the "we didn't know what we were doing wrong" as a sob story. I didn't mean to insinuate otherwise, I was more less just trying to add to your comment.

:truce: :)

We cool.

Whatever the case, there are so many arrogant people in that town, I wouldn't know where to begin, if I were the prosecutor! It's just a cess pool!!!

Speaking of which-does anyone know the status of the 2 girls arrested for threatening the victim on FB and Twitter?

ETA-Don't any of these people follow their kids and their friends on FB and Twitter??? I certainly do!!! ESPECIALLY after all of this??? They aren't monitoring their kids social networking??? How stupid can you be???
 
I dont think he meant to blame social media itself. Its just a tool. But blaming the irresponsible use of it. While the video and photos and texts/tweets were used by LE, they were not made for the purpose of helping LE; they were made for the enterainment of those kids. Social media and communicating that way has led kids (all people) to become sort of detached from reality. In my opinion they tend to see things like this rape as something to video and post, or to watch on their phone or computer as if its some sort of TV show. We need to start being aware of how this affecting young people and what the consequences of it are.

I suppose you are correct. The judge did speak volumes enough by convicting the rapists. Now let's just see what happens during the sentencing phase. He'd better throw the book at them!

And by the way...the least of these rapist's problems is being labeled as sex offenders the rest of their lives. Because of their actions and their and their friends documentation of their actions on social media, a simple Google search will certainly have a much bigger impact on their futures than a SO registry.

My advice to them, if they are seriously "remourseful?" Do something positive with the rest of your lives that may just leave a more positive lasting imprint on your record. No one is beyond redemption. There are many criminals out there who have done their time and then went on to become positive members of society and have done what they can to atone for their crimes.

But nothing they have done since the rape has even hinted at anything close to remourse. Instead, their focus is on themselves: not-guilty pleas, heartwrenching interviews where they say the drunk, unconsious, naked, puking girl was coming onto them, crying in the courtroom AFTER the verdict was read, but not during the testimony of their victim, it goes on and on and on.
 
Forgive my ignorance, but what DNA was found? I remember reading a crude comment about "a wang in the butt" so I'm wondering if they anally assaulted her too?

I'm thinking at least a few of the 16 that refused to testify - plus whatever ones LE had wanted DNA from - I believe EW was one of those. Can a GJ compel DNA? I still can't believe you can refuse a DNA - and that at trial the prosecution just said there were 3 samples found - but only 1 was ID'd.
JMHO

Immunity is usually limited, IIRC. They can't be tried for anything they testified to, but if they were involved in something else they could be. For instance, say they raped a girl at the party too and she comes forward. They could be tried for her rape because it has nothing to do with their testimony in the MR and TM case.

Warrants can be issued to obtain DNA, but without probable cause one won't be issued, most likely. Cops can follow a suspect and if they discard a cigarette butt or empty soda can into the trash the cops can pick it up and have it tested. if it matches the DNA they already have from the case then they can get a warrant for the suspect to come in and give their DNA. At least I recall seeing that on some true crime shows.

There was a blanket taken from the basement of the third house by LE. That blanket was tested and was found to have 3 separate DNA (semen) samples. One was ID'd as MR's (I think - could have TM's) but the other two were just presented as "unidentified".

I found that very strange - especially since it was being introduced in a courtroom during a trial. They just focused on the one that was ID'd as one of the defendants. But still, I would seriously want to know who the other two were - wouldn't you? Wouldn't a jury? Wouldn't both the defense and the prosecution? Why there were no further legal steps taken to compel samples from others - IDK.

I was just wondering if a GJ would have the authority to compel DNA samples? I don't think so - but then again, could be.

HTH

JMHO

According to one of the attorneys, there was only ONE sperm cell found, it was on the girl's shorts, and has not been matched to anyone. I'm skeptical, but wonder if anyone has a link to support the finding of DNA, (where, when, how much, how many donors, etc.) so we can get this sorted.
 
I didnt know, but thank you for clarifying.

Well perhaps some of the possible additional charges will be leveled at the parents and guardians of the perps. If there is no criminal recourse, perhaps JD and her family will find some civil recourse if these families are legally responsible for the actions of these offenders.

There would not be a "Juvenile Justice System" at all if children did not bear some of the responsibility for their actions. But at the same time, parents are often held accountable for the nefarious activities of their children by school administrators and law enforcement. And it is why LE will occasionally take a child home and talk wo the parents as opposed to arresting said child for a first offense of a minor nature (graffiti, school fight, etc., not rape).
 
BBM

We cool.

Whatever the case, there are so many arrogant people in that town, I wouldn't know where to begin, if I were the prosecutor! It's just a cess pool!!!

Speaking of which-does anyone know the status of the 2 girls arrested for threatening the victim on FB and Twitter?

ETA-Don't any of these people follow their kids and their friends on FB and Twitter??? I certainly do!!! ESPECIALLY after all of this??? They aren't monitoring their kids social networking??? How stupid can you be???

Both are still in custody and charged with "felony intimidation of a witness and aggravated menacing and telecommunication harassment, both misdemeanors."

Next hearing set for March 27.

The two female teenagers were sent back to the county juvenile detention center Tuesday by Juvenile Court Judge Samuel Kerr during the brief detention hearing after Assistant Prosecutor Sam Pate requested the two remain detained "to protect a person from immediate or threatened harm."

An adjudication hearing for the two girls is scheduled for March 27 in juvenile court.

Neither girl officially was identified, but according to Pate, both teens were charged Tuesday morning with felony intimidation of a witness and aggravated menacing and telecommunication harassment, both misdemeanors.

More at the link:

http://www.hsconnect.com/page/conte...manded---threat-probe-continues.html?nav=5010

Additionally,

Pate said there may be more arrests in the future as the investigation into threats on social media continues.

"These type of threats must stop," stated Pate.

Steubenville Police Chief Bill McCafferty said he and Juvenile Detective Erik Dervis still are pursuing information about a male juvenile who allegedly made comments about the rape victim.
 
Ohio's attorney general on Wednesday announced new efforts to help victims of sexual assault, saying services for victims are lacking in the state.

http://www.wtov9.com/news/news/ohio-ag-announces-help-sexual-assault-victims/nWyFf/

Attorney General Mike DeWine this morning announced an effort to make comprehensive sexual assault response services available in all 88 Ohio counties in the next five years.

Last year, efforts to create a rape crisis trust fund fueled by new court costs on sex crimes faded after disagreements about how to raise the money and whether it would be enough to make a difference.

More than 50 counties in Ohio don't currently offer comprehensive rape crisis services.

During the trial teen witnesses, including the victim testified that they did not know digital penetration was rape. They equated the crime with only forced sexual intercourse. In addition, many said they were unsure about a person's ability to consent to sex after drinking.

In Steubenville, before the case got attention, the area had only one part-time sexual assault victim advocate and the program receives less-then $15,000 a-year in funding.

At one point the schools did have a program that taught prevention but it faded out when a grant ended.

More at the link:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/03/attorney_general_announces_mor.html
 

This saddens me. That said-ignorance of the law is not a defense!

If these kids are smart enough to navigate through social media the way they do, they should be smart enough to know that the rape law includes digital penetration. Perhaps they should have googled prior to raping! Then they would have known. We already know they had access to the Internet! No excuse!

And they may not have known that digital penetration or having sexual contact with a person severely under the influence = "rape" they certainly must have known that it was WRONG and ILLEGAL!!! Even a 7 year old knows that!!! Many of their friends even texted or tweeted back that what they had done was rape and was a crime! Too bad none of them decided to do the right thing and immediately contact authorities.
 
I am not sure what to say about this. While it is apparent that JH didn't participate in the rape in any way, nor was he drinking or condoning what had happened, I find it sad that the parents take no responsibility whatsoever.

They state that they did, in fact, tell the drunk minors to leave her home. Apparently, JH was smart enough to insure a designated driver was with them, but the parents did not. The bottom line is that if drunk minors show up at your home, are let in by your child and then are sent out into the night, it is ultimately your responsibility.

It appears as though the girls at the home begged her to stay with them and call her friends to come and get her, but she "refused." We see that she was puking in the bathroom and had to be carried out by her hands and feet. Why didn't anyone call up to the father and mother to come down and intercede? One visit to the basement from dad should have resulted in him telling these boys they aren't going anywhere with this obviously intoxicated girl.

I don't have teens just yet, but several of my friends do. They walk the line between being responsible parents and being a "narc." But they do have strict rules when it comes to underaged drinking. If a minor shows up at their home and has been drinking, they are allowed to stay put for the rest of the night and stay with them with no phone calls made. If they decide they wish to leave, their parents will be called to come and get them. If they decide to sneak in booth or continue to drink, their parents are called. I think this is a very fair rule. They provide a safe place for the kids to stay and no one gets hurt, or in trouble with their parents or police.

These parents did no such thing. I know that if a group of loud kids showed up at my home uninvited at midnight, I would definitely be down there investigating what is going on. There is absolutely NO WAY those kids would have left my home once I realized they had been drinking. Since the girl was getting sick, I would have contacted her parents immediately to come and pick her up. I draw the line when a kid is apparently sick and passing out. This girl was so drunk, she could have easily thrown up in her own mouth and choked to death in the middle of the night. Or she could have gone into a coma from alcohol poisoning.

Also, it should be noted that the group was right out front of their home, with the girl puking in the street and her pictures being taken, her clothing taken off, etc... Out front in that street is where a huge portion of the assaults took place and where the pictures that were circulated were taken. Did they not even peek out a window to see what this loud group was doing???

So to say how much they should be commended for their non-actions that evening is disengenous. Those kids became YOUR responsibility the moment they stepped through your door and entered your home, with their son's permission.

Do I think they are bad people and that JH is deserving of the horrible things said about him (i.e. part of the rape crew, etc...) Absolutely NOT!!! But they COULD have and SHOULD have prevented a lot of this from happening if they had just done something rather than kicking the kids out and going back to bed!

I do feel bad for JH, as it is quite apparent that he is not a rapist nor part of any "rape crew." But he did, in fact, allow that poor girl to leave his home with the drunken boys.

I believe this is what I was getting at earlier when I stated that parents have a responsibility for the actions of their children until age 18. You should (obviously?) tell your child not to let kids in the house if they have been drinking, HOWEVER, if they do it anyway, and you don't ensure the safety of YOUR guests, it's going to come back to haunt you.
 
How awful for poor Poppy.. Same disgusting treatment as those poor boys got with their lives ruined eh? ;)
 
No, no. I was just saying that I don't buy that anyone told them their behaviors were acceptable (maybe the coach). I think they thought that they would get off because they are arrogant jerks and only played the "we didn't know what we were doing wrong" as a sob story. I didn't mean to insinuate otherwise, I was more less just trying to add to your comment.

:truce: :)

Stop it you two! *LOL*
I would not be surprised if some of the boys, whose Dads were also part of the "Big Red" team and accept this behavior as typical or boys-will-be-boys behavior, MAY have been asked what happened, and the parents "decided" that (since - by their reckoning - she was semi-conscious and nobody had intercourse with her) that they'd be found "not guilty" of rape. Or even that it was NOT a "rape" at all.
 
I may get in trouble for saying this, but over the course of the last 50 (or so) posts, I have gleaned that:
A person named J.H. was initially accused, but has been found to have had no involvement in the crime. (Initially, I thought this was a reference to J*n* H*nl*n). This OTHER "J.H." has been named in several posts by his first name, and one by his last name. If he is generally considered NOT to be one of the "bad guys", shouldn't we be consistently referring to him by initials only? Particularly if he is a minor (don't know about this). If M.N. is being given this courtesy after the VILE things he said in the 12½ minute video, and IS over 18, I am asking for the same consideration for this OTHER boy. I do not know any of the parties involved, and have never been to Ohio, so I have no dog in this fight. I just want to be fair to a kid who is generally presumed innocent.
 
Has anyone posted this story?
Conn. high school football players accused of sex assault

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...yers-sex-assault-connecticut-accused/2003379/



TORRINGTON, Conn. (AP) &#8212; Two Connecticut high school football players have been charged in sexual assault cases involving different 13-year-old girls, at least one of whom has been taunted online by dozens of upset classmates.

...The case has some parallels to one in Steubenville, Ohio, where two football players were convicted this week of raping a girl who was later threatened online.
 
Has anyone posted this story?
Conn. high school football players accused of sex assault

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/20/football-players-sex-assault-connecticut-accused/2003379/


TORRINGTON, Conn. (AP) — Two Connecticut high school football players have been charged in sexual assault cases involving different 13-year-old girls, at least one of whom has been taunted online by dozens of upset classmates.

...The case has some parallels to one in Steubenville, Ohio, where two football players were convicted this week of raping a girl who was later threatened online.

I was just coming to post the same thing.

http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/litchfield_cty/rape-charges-against-torrington-athletes#.UUoHtxycevS

Disgusting.
 

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p><a href="https://twitter.com/search/%23Torrington">#Torrington</a> police confirm there are two 13-year-old victims in the sex assault case against two high school football players.</p>&mdash; Register Citizen (@RegisterCitizen) <a href="https://twitter.com/RegisterCitizen/status/314479298461446144">March 20, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Not sure if I did this right-trying to put in a tweet.

They are now saying there are two (2) thirteen (13) year old victims!!!

Such a shame...we are talking about the team MVP and 2nd leading scorer on the team...so sad....:what:
 
I may get in trouble for saying this, but over the course of the last 50 (or so) posts, I have gleaned that:
A person named J.H. was initially accused, but has been found to have had no involvement in the crime. (Initially, I thought this was a reference to J*n* H*nl*n). This OTHER "J.H." has been named in several posts by his first name, and one by his last name. If he is generally considered NOT to be one of the "bad guys", shouldn't we be consistently referring to him by initials only? Particularly if he is a minor (don't know about this). If M.N. is being given this courtesy after the VILE things he said in the 12½ minute video, and IS over 18, I am asking for the same consideration for this OTHER boy. I do not know any of the parties involved, and have never been to Ohio, so I have no dog in this fight. I just want to be fair to a kid who is generally presumed innocent.

I thought the 2nd reason why we use initials for everyone is so WS is less "google-able". Since we're victim friendly, you don't want all the trolls descending upon us....??
 

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