Elisa Lam - What Happened?

[Peter Brendt]

yes it is a rite of passage, that's why age restrictions are placed on drinking. it's a BIG deal when you finally become of age, and one of the first things you celebrate, what, did you grow up amish? stats aren't necessary, but laws are.

The funny thing to me is, it appears as if not the oldest the ones here who remember still the own youth ...

 

[Conductor71]

If she wants to keep someone from following her, why doesn't she try some different buttons? Or just go to the lobby, as another poster mentioned?

The second time she pushes the sequence of buttons, she doesn't even give the elevator time to react, just immediately steps out of the elevator and walks away in pretty short order.

That is because she is expecting someone to follow her; she is, in effect, holding the elevator for someone. Hence her retreating and peeking out behavior.

 

[gitana1]

I am still a little bit confused. There are those books (well technically CDs nowadays), like ICD, ECD, DSM. Thousands of experts have worked to compile them, to define symptom catalogs, diagnosis guides and so on. All of them agreed, to make a diagnosis for psychosis, they need to observe the patient tow to three days under clinical conditions, maybe even have to do additional research, interview the family for example. Because as Montjoy said, to some level the function still. even it's a very basic level.
<modsnip> But then, when I notice this discrepancy a little too loud, that is called rude, so ... err ... now what?

They are not experts at diagnosing someone from just a video with no audio and no other surroundings.

To say that someone is "probably" sleepwalking/having a psychotic episode/on drugs, is the modern day equivalent to what you just said. Scientific knowledge is about forming hypotheses which can be tested.


<modnsip>

I keep hearing the word "diagnosis" being used. But no one here is diagnosing anyone. Mental health diagnoses are serious, official determinations that can have some serious legal and other effects. For example, if someone is diagnosed as mentally ill, they may never be able to obtain certain jobs like FBI or CIA positions. Also, certain diagnoses allow for 72 hour holds of a person against their will. A mental health diagnosis can result in the loss of custody of a child, especially if a parent is not following treatment protocols. Certain mental health diagnoses can result in conservatorships, like what happened to Brittany Spears.

So yes, there are rigorous protocols that are undergone to officially diagnose someone.

But that's simply not what is happening here. And so those protocols would not apply here.

Instead, what's happening is experts are giving expert opinions based on their knowledge base, their education, their specific, expert experience.

You know when a law enforcement mental health team responds to a call about bizarre, out of control or dangerous behavior, they have the power to place the subject in custody and to physically transport them to a hospital, against their will. They base that decision on a deductive hypothesis resulting from years of experience, among other things. They are not diagnosing the subject but they are assessing him or her and they do it usually within half an hour or so.

Also, in my practice, I read a lot of child custody evaluations that involve psychological assessments of both parents. The parties undergo testing and each speaks to the evaluator for no more than a couple hours, giving their history, etc. A psych assessment is issued. It is not a diagnosis. But it is a hypothesis and decisions by a judge regarding custody are based on those hypotheses.

Finally, in some professions, people have to come to rapid decisions about things and must act accordingly. Thus, an ER doctor may have a pretty good indication that a certain medical phenomena is occurring and sometimes that quick determination results in emergency surgery or other emergency treatments. They likely have not been able to officially diagnose a patient but they know they have to act fast possibly to save a life. So they do.

The point is, being able to come to a conclusion or to form an opinion, expert or otherwise, is not rendered impossible if the person coming to that conclusion or forming that opinion has not tested their hypothesis via certain scientific protocols. And often, actual, professional decisions and conclusions are arrived at without having done so, just based on experience and gut alone.

Several professionals have come to the same conclusion in this case. Again, not a DSM diagnosis, but a conclusion based on what they are seeing and how it compares to what they have experienced and observed professionally. I'm confused by the outright anger towards these professionals and the attitude that a lay person would know more than they or that the basis for their conclusion is faulty.

This is where I read about the body being found nude, and it's not a Chinese video. However, this is not a direct quote from LE.

"KNX 1070&#8242;s Claudia Peschiutta reports guests were disturbed to learn Lam&#8217;s nude body was found inside of one of four large water tanks."


http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...-downtown-la-hotel/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Yes, but Qrious was saying that it first came from the Chinese media, not LE and that since then, reports like the one you linked to have echoed it with no supporting evidence from LE or any witness. So some are wondering if that was actually the case.

I am sorry. Where does anyone address how EL got from the hotel to the water tank when a police dog found no trace of her? Did I miss that?

What that would have to do with whether or not Elisa was psychotic in the video is beyond me. She could have been wandering the streets in a psychotic haze before returning and climbing to the roof. She could have been ensconced in some person's room for days before being killed or before leaving to go up to the roof.

And Elisa got on that roof and into a water tank one way or the other. Whether carried there or climbing there on her own, a search dog could have picked up her scent.

But, the dog could have made a mistake or the handler may not have interpreted the dog's signals correctly. That happens:
"K9 Reliability

The dog must be trained, certified and reliable. The dog does not have to be 100% accurate or perfect. The court has recognized the fact that &#8220;false positives&#8221; occur and dogs can be as low as 62% accurate." http://www.asctk9.org/id55.html


There has already been discussion and links about search dogs on these threads. We don;t know if the dog alerted and the handler misread the signs or if the dog failed to alert because it was having an off day.



It is ironic to me that the professional mental health experts are being equated with witch hunters for having an expert opinion in the absence of the ability to make an official diagnosis, yet we are supposed to accept that search and rescue dogs are infallible.


I'm seeing a confusing lack of logic here that is creating circular arguments, a repetition of accusations and questions that are repeatedly answered and then ignored as if they were never discussed and then the accusation that the experts are "ignoring the evidence."


With all due respect, I see nothing wrong with disagreeing with one another, even experts. But ignoring what others have to say and then accusing them of not having said it or of saying something totally different, seems unproductive to me.

 

[Xavier]

There have been excellent responses to this with which I agree. I did want to add my own little :twocents: - if she's determined to push a bunch of buttons to throw off a potential assailant who might be following her, why would she keep pushing the same buttons in the same sequence each time? When it doesn't work, why doesn't she try another sequence of buttons? The way she pressed the SAME buttons in the SAME sequence over and over again despite the fact that the elevator was not responding as she wished seems to me to indicate that she's having a problem thinking clearly. That could be caused by anything, really - I don't have any way of knowing.

If she wants to keep someone from following her, why doesn't she try some different buttons? Or just go to the lobby, as another poster mentioned?

The second time she pushes the sequence of buttons, she doesn't even give the elevator time to react, just immediately steps out of the elevator and walks away in pretty short order.

If Elisa was in danger, shoe could've hopped out of the elevator, bange don guest rooms doors, pulled the Fire alrm lever or just bolted for the Fire Escape stairs..

But this is'nt a perfect world ala Hollywood movie

I'm still sticking with she met someone, possibly an acquaintance in the hallway on the 14th floor and met her death

I really hope they find this wack job, it pizzes me off there's a punk perp walking around amongst us feeling satisfied he got away with a perfect murder

 

[Nickfalzone]

Random acquaintance, "internet friend", or perfect stranger, I do believe that there was another party involved that led to her untimely death. What is worse is that this was likely entirely preventable if everyone had a little bit of common sense. Thinking about statistics/probabilities, how would this rate to you as far as "risk":

1. Young asian female
2. Traveling to another country alone
3. Has agoraphobia, poss depression, poss low self-esteem and mild paranoia
4. Has in the recent past been too scared to leave house, let alone country
5. Travels to parts of US that would be "nicely" termed "seedy"
6. May be a klutz, has lost phone before, lost glasses and phone during trip
7. Basically blind without glasses
8. Likely has little/no street smarts

This was a lost, alone, paranoid, vulnerable female in a seedy area of a foreign country. The odds were not in her favor, sad to say...

 

[Newton]

After reviewing the video again, in particular the button pushing, I no longer think that it might be a playful game of hide and seek. However, I am wondering if instead of a psychotic break, could she possibly be sleepwalking? The button pushing makes no sense to me. Her movements appear very animated yet her face looks expressionless. Her writing and photos seem to reveal someone who is emotionally expressive.

Have any of the experts on here had occasion to witness patients/clients sleepwalking? Did EL mention what rx she was taking for her insomnia? There have been a lot of reports of sleepwalking with Ambien. Also, sleepwalking incidents can occur as a result of sleep deprivation or be brought on by stress and anxiety. Sleepwalking could also explain why the Coroner is interested in therapeutic levels of medication from the toxicology results. It could be she takes an rx to help her sleep that caused sleepwalking or that she takes an rx to prevent sleepwalking.

When I was reading up on it, I was surprised at just how ambulatory one could be while sleepwalking.

15 yo girl climbed a 130' crane and walked a narrow beam while sleepwalking.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4654579.stm

17 yo boy climbed out a 4th floor window and fell. Despite broken bone injuries, he did not awake.
http://m.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/a-502518.html

 

[Nickfalzone]

After reviewing the video again, in particular the button pushing, I no longer think that it might be a playful game of hide and seek. However, I am wondering if instead of a psychotic break, could she possibly be sleepwalking? The button pushing makes no sense to me. Her movements appear very animated yet her face looks expressionless. Her writing and photos seem to reveal someone who is emotionally expressive.

Have any of the experts on here had occasion to witness patients/clients sleepwalking? Did EL mention what rx she was taking for her insomnia? There have been a lot of reports of sleepwalking with Ambien. Also, sleepwalking incidents can occur as a result of sleep deprivation or be brought on by stress and anxiety. Sleepwalking could also explain why the Coroner is interested in therapeutic levels of medication from the toxicology results. It could be she takes an rx to help her sleep that caused sleepwalking or that she takes an rx to prevent sleepwalking.

When I was reading up on it, I was surprised at just how ambulatory one could be while sleepwalking.

15 yo girl climbed a 130' crane and walked a narrow beam while sleepwalking.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4654579.stm

17 yo boy climbed out a 4th floor window and fell. Despite broken bone injuries, he did not awake.
http://m.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/a-502518.html

Could be sleepwalking - could also be more purposeful. IE she was woken up in the middle of the night due to the loud pipe breaking noise that woke a neighbor on 3rd floor. This pipe break freaked her out bec it may have leaked in her room and also she had already taken her contacts out and d/t to flooding could not find her glasses. So she went up to another floor to use the bathroom or something, or perhaps to meet someone that she knew could help her find her glasses/help clean the room. All the while, basically blind without glasses, and also still mentally a mess from the ambien she had probably taken only a couple hrs earlier. Not sleepwalking, but judgement, balance, and perception damaged by the drug still working in her system, and her lack of eyesight.

 

[Montjoy]

Were it sleepwalking, I would speculate that she was on some sort of 'sleep' medication. Was it Ambien (or its active ingredient, more to the point) that has been tied to some rather vivid sleepwalking (sleep-eating, sleep-driving) events?

 

[Newton]

Yes, it was the main ingredient in Ambien that has been attributed to sleepwalking, sleep-eating, sleep-driving. Below is a snip from the Mayo Clinic
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/sleepwalking/DS01009/DSECTION=causes

Many factors can contribute to sleepwalking, including:
Sleep deprivation
Fatigue
Stress
Anxiety
Fever
Sleeping in unfamiliar surroundings
Some medications, such as zolpidem (Ambien, Edluar)

 

[Newton]

Could be sleepwalking - could also be more purposeful. IE she was woken up in the middle of the night due to the loud pipe breaking noise that woke a neighbor on 3rd floor. This pipe break freaked her out bec it may have leaked in her room and also she had already taken her contacts out and d/t to flooding could not find her glasses. So she went up to another floor to use the bathroom or something, or perhaps to meet someone that she knew could help her find her glasses/help clean the room. All the while, basically blind without glasses, and also still mentally a mess from the ambien she had probably taken only a couple hrs earlier. Not sleepwalking, but judgement, balance, and perception damaged by the drug still working in her system, and her lack of eyesight.

I guess the problem for me is that I am putting a "what would I do" spin on it and there are too many variables.
Example: I am basically blind without my contacts or glasses. When I have my contacts out at night, my glasses are always within reach. If I am staying somewhere without a nightstand then I put them under the pillow next to me. If I get up in the middle of the night to go to the kitchen or to the bathroom (even at home) I will put on my glasses. Therefore, I could not imagine someone who is very nearsighted, and with an anxiety disorder, wandering around a hotel w/o her glasses.

Do the hotel rooms have phones that ring the front desk?

 

[BuzzieCat]

That is because she is expecting someone to follow her; she is, in effect, holding the elevator for someone. Hence her retreating and peeking out behavior.

I was responding to another poster who thought she might be pushing a sequence of buttons to keep someone from following her. I was trying to say I don't believe that theory, not that I do.

For the record, I don't think she was trying to push a bunch of different buttons to keep someone from following her, and I don't think she was waiting for someone or playing a game with someone.

 

[allison78ca]

L e e bsb


Just trying to make this world a safer place for our children.

 

[fred&edna]

Yes, but Qrious was saying that it first came from the Chinese media, not LE and that since then, reports like the one you linked to have echoed it with no supporting evidence from LE or any witness. So some are wondering if that was actually the case.



.

Snipped by me to save space

Did you check the link I provided?? If you will click the recording (via the link in my post - and below) she, KNX reporter Claudia Peschiutta, is at the hotel (on the day EL's body was found) and says, "Officials here are telling us the nude body of a woman was found inside one of the water tanks..."

I believe others news agencies echoed her report.

The reporter doesn't say "hotel employees are telling us" nor does she say "Chinese reports are telling us".... she says "officials here are telling us..."

No, there is not a direct quote by a named official (as I stated in my post), but her words seem clear.

Reporters often make mistakes, but I have to wonder if this truly was a mistake.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...-downtown-la-hotel/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

[Peace777]

This is also called Devil`s Breath (1 girl said there are Scopalamine patches) and may have something to do with mind control just found some youtube video talking about it`s dangers. Maybe someone gave this to EL? JMO

 

[gitana1]

Snipped by me to save space

Did you check the link I provided?? If you will click the recording (via the link in my post - and below) she, KNX reporter Claudia Peschiutta, is at the hotel (on the day EL's body was found) and says, "Officials here are telling us the nude body of a woman was found inside one of the water tanks..."

I believe others news agencies echoed her report.

The reporter doesn't say "hotel employees are telling us" nor does she say "Chinese reports are telling us".... she says "officials here are telling us..."

No, there is not a direct quote by a named official (as I stated in my post), but her words seem clear.

Reporters often make mistakes, but I have to wonder if this truly was a mistake.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...-downtown-la-hotel/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

No, I hadn't listened. So that report was definitely made on the day she was found. And while they do often make mistakes, if she was right there getting information as it came in, I have to think she got some good info. There is no reason to think otherwise.

 

[findinganatta]

What is really odd about it is that he was answering a very specific question about her cell phone by a reporter. The question was barely audible and unintelligible. In most cases, a speaker reiterates the question; clearly he did not want it known. My first thought was the reporter had asked a too specific question about her phone, and he didn't want to compromise its role in the investigation. Nor did he want anyone else bringing it up, so by saying "I don't want to talk very much about the phone" sends that message without tipping their hand. Even stranger then that not one journalist has run with that. Whatever happened to investigative journalism?

Regarding your last question, I suspect the reporters feel the same way you did, and aren't pushing the issue because they think it might just be something important to the case that needs to remain confidential. Until the toxicology results come back and the status of the case is clearer, I suspect that journalists aren't going to jump on the cops too much because they don't know enough to feel justified doing so. Once we have solid answers about the autopsy/toxicology stuff, and a little more time has passed without any real resolution, I predict there will be journalists asking those questions (assuming they haven't been answered already by then).

 

[kunibob]

I know this reply is a bit delayed, but I saw a couple questions about culture specific to BC...

"In residence" is in a university residence (ie: dorms.) It may also be referred to as "res."

Legal age here is 19 (alcohol/gambling/tobacco), but you can vote at 18, and you're considered an adult for law enforcement purposes or movies or sex-related things at 18. Because it kind of straddles the two ages, there isn't usually a big "coming of age" deal here, although it's common to go to a bar or club on your 19th.

 

[findinganatta]

This is also called Devil`s Breath (1 girl said there are Scopalamine patches) and may have something to do with mind control just found some youtube video talking about it`s dangers. Maybe someone gave this to EL? JMO

I really doubt that she was given that stuff. Firstly, it's not something that is widely available or even known of outside of Columbia and a few other places, and secondly there are many other drugs that are widely available on US streets that a bad person would be aware of and have access to... assuming drugs were involved, either voluntarily or otherwise. It just seems very unlikely that something so obscure would be involved, especially since she wasn't robbed and her elevator behavior is suspicious in ways that don't seem related to the descriptions of that particular drug.

 

[Newton]

kunibob-Thank you for answering the in residence question.

I have looked at some sleepwalking videos and I really think that is what could be going on in the elevator. There is even one where a woman does little step shuffle moves, all while maintaining a rather stoic expression.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNYT_rOgvIA"]My Mom Sleepwalking (Tomato Cage) - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibQ3-EwdthM"]Mom&#39;s Reaction to her Sleepwalking Video - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Peace777]

Scopolamine (Scopace) is given as a prescription in the US found this link http://www.emedicinehealth.com/drug-scopolamine/page3_em.htm