weekend discussion: discuss the trial here #154

[Love Never Fails]

Excellent post and I'm so glad you made it because I found the whole "engagement ring" story very confusing. Frankly it didn't add up. However, I let my fingers do the walking to Google, and it turns out that a ring with the letters "CTR" on it is often worn by members of the LDS Church as a reminder of the "Choose the Right" motto, and as a symbol of their religious affiliation. This "ring" story makes a lot more sense. I can see Travis being VERY ANGRY and UPSET if he learned that it was Jodi who stole his CTR ring. He probably tore his hair out looking for his ring and she could have fed the drama. Maybe she took it when she stayed at his place before the move back to Yreka. Who knows.

One of the many unanswered questions of the case for me is why Travis agreed to let her come to his home after everything that was said in the May 26 text exchange. However if Jodi admitted that she took it, apologized and "offered" to return it to him on her way to Utah, then I can see why he'd agree to see her before his trip to Cancun.

Travis never allowed Jodi back. He didn't know she was going and she sneaked in. I guess from there, she apologized and seduced him. Who knows?

 

[PrincessSezMe]

Do you think you could do any better?
The defense is stuck with a fantasy story made up by an ill person. What do you expect them to do? They are doing the best they can with what they got. On the other hand the prosecution has it on easy street. Do you think it is JM is the only person that can crack this case open? Think about it.

At the very minimum I would expect them to conduct themselves appropriately in a court of law, and not act like they're participating in the High School debate team. The snark and sarcasm has no place in a death penalty trial, and has not garnered them any favor with the jury I am sure (as was evidenced by some of the juror questions).

That is what makes them appear inept. Did JW really think she could outsmart Dr. DeMarte on the MCMI test interpretation? It made her look foolish. And the snarkier she got, the worse she came across. That, along with Nurmi's snickering, just makes them appear incompetent.

 

[tss]

I disagree. Knowing someone with PTSD..this is true. The smells, sounds, colors, movement, etc provoke the triggers. In other words, the color or sound of lion and bear are different so seeing the color of a lion or lion roar would bring out the PTSD behaviors where the color or sound similar to a bear would not. So stranger vs Tavis attack would also bring different triggers. Talk to someone with PTSD...triggers are very specific to event.

I noticed a lot of posts about this Juror question. I finally got a chance to review it via a youtube recently put up. I think many have missed the exact wording of this question. And when I looked at it, I have no doubt that Dr D gave the only Correct reply. Of course it had to be discounted, and I think you'll all see that, once you look at it again with the exact question. Most of the posts only mention a Bear or Tiger, and forgot that the Juror added that it was a Lie.

The main point, and everyone seems to forget, is = its a LIE to start with in the Juror's question.

If a person began with a LIE then the rest of the answers can't be taken as truthful. There is no way to know what to believe....IOW the person can't be trusted


Exact Question Quoted:

"""Hypothetically, if a person suffered PTSD because of a bear attack while hiking would you throw out their PDS test if they lied and said it was a tiger?"""


Jodi Arias Trial - Day 50 - Part 5 (Juror Questions)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDO0bqaIbmk

Published on Apr 18, 2013

18/04/2013

[ also, you can't coach for an unknown coming Juror's question, plus Dr. D only needs to be Honest, as she has ]

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Do you think you could do any better?
The defense is stuck with a fantasy story made up by an ill person. What do you expect them to do? They are doing the best they can with what they got. On the other hand the prosecution has it on easy street. Do you think it is JM is the only person that can crack this case open? Think about it.

Logic much? That question makes no sense. Whether or not I could do a better job has no bearing on whether or not the defense is competent. The defense chose to put up experts who are incompetent and one was shown to be a liar. Wilmott won't deign to do the slightest research to understand the subject matter she's questioning Dr. D about...I don't call that doing the best they can.

 

[Love Never Fails]

The whole swearing in process in court is a joke to me. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, so help you God? And the same court will not let you tell the whole truth because it is too prejudicial against the defendant.

IMO the courts should be forced to change the wording to add ....as much of the truth as we will allow you to tell.

And then NO ONE is ever charged with perjury. Our justice system is a mockery.

 

[dani]

Yes, I re-listened to Darryl's testimony a few weeks ago and JM was hammering him about when the first time Jodi asked to borrow the gas cans. He was deliberately vague and said it was shortly before the road trip, however JM said that's not what you said in your previous interview with the prosecutor. He eventually conceded that it was much earlier in May. The other interesting point to come out of that testimony was that during his interview with the State, Darryl told JM that Jodi wanted to borrow the gas cans for a road trip to Mesa. He claimed he didn't specify Mesa, but IIRC, I think he eventually conceded that he may have said Mesa. And yes, she inundated him with phone calls/messages/reminders about the gas cans.

BBM: Aha! "much earlier in May"! (Thank you :blowkiss And Ryan B. started asking her to come to see him in early May. The premeditation seed may have taken root weeks before May 26th. It sounds like Juan thinks so, too. Interesting. Can't wait for Juan's closing argument to tie up the loose ends.:woohoo:

 

[kscornfed]

At the very minimum I would expect them to conduct themselves appropriately in a court of law, and not act like they're participating in the High School debate team. The snark and sarcasm has no place in a death penalty trial, and has not garnered them any favor with the jury I am sure (as was evidenced by some of the juror questions).

That is what makes them appear inept. Did JW really think she could outsmart Dr. DeMarte on the MCMI test interpretation? It made her look foolish. And the snarkier she got, the worse she came across. That, along with Nurmi's snickering, just makes them appear incompetent.

and i believe JW called JDM a ***** too. that's what i heard, and i think JA heard it as well, because she raised her head up real fast and had a faint smile on her face. really stupid, but yes, i believe she said that.

 

[DebinGA]

Jodi rented a car in Redding. The owner of the rental agency said she had blonde hair at the time she rented tue car.

I think JA claimed she opted for a rental because her Infinity used too much gas, and she was making a long trip.

Re her blonde hair.. I think it's possible the rental guy had her drivers' license showing her with blonde hair, wrote down the number/address from it, and later mistakenly thought she arrived in Redding as a blonde. IIRC the pics of Jodi with blonde hair at her friend Patty's wedding was in July 08 before her arrest. If so, it's telling that the brown hair was gone asap after serving its purpose.

 

[Truth Detector]

Do you think you could do any better?
The defense is stuck with a fantasy story made up by an ill person. What do you expect them to do? They are doing the best they can with what they got. On the other hand the prosecution has it on easy street. Do you think it is JM is the only person that can crack this case open? Think about it.

An "ill person" with off-the-chart verbal comprehension, an IQ of 119 and functional enough to pre-plan a cold-blooded murder from more than a thousand miles away, implement it, fake an alibi, and execute multiple cover-ups.

In this case, "ill person" = willful, deliberate, intentional, intelligent, functioning, lying, stalking, torture murderess stopped by LE after her first killing.

(Just in case the jury is confused on this point.)

 

[Arabian Girl]

The jury I believe will have a verdict ready within twelve hours is my guess.
I think by now they have already made up their minds and just want to go back to their normal lives.
By the time Juan is done with his closing arguments the jury will have the full picture and Juan's closing will just be icing on the cake.
Even if there is a juror that is not the brightest bunny in the bush it shouldn't take long for the other jurors to point out the reality of the crime to them and the mountain of evidence against her.
At worst might be the arguing over LWOP or DP.
Then Jodi can move into her new mansion and meet all the nice people housed there.
That should get her fear factor raised to high, not like the club med she's staying at now.

Even then, this is the Guilt Phase only, there won't be any discussion YET of punishment. Jury instructions will be very specific.

 

[Karraster]

Yes! A million times yes.

Everything you listed here is why I don't quite understand the worry about some of the juror questions for Dr. Demarte. After rebuttal and closing arguments, when Juan has brought it back to premeditation and the actual crime, what Demarte, Sumuels or ALV said is not going to matter one bit. The crime scene photos, gas cans and the gun are all anyone should need to find her guilty of Murder 1. :twocents:

Your right, they should. Will they? We can't know until the verdict is in.

 

[Love Never Fails]

She knew there was no escape from the ninja.

She needed time to steal some money for her trip or uh, you know work for it.

 

[minor4th]

Then Juan should have brought up the Psychopathic Deviate scale and how Jodi scored so high on it. It just sounds bad.

That is one of the scales that indicated borderline personality disorder.

 

[Southern_Meadow]

At the very minimum I would expect them to conduct themselves appropriately in a court of law, and not act like they're participating in the High School debate team. The snark and sarcasm has no place in a death penalty trial, and has not garnered them any favor with the jury I am sure (as was evidenced by some of the juror questions).

That is what makes them appear inept. Did JW really think she could outsmart Dr. DeMarte on the MCMI test interpretation? It made her look foolish. And the snarkier she got, the worse she came across. That, along with Nurmi's snickering, just makes them appear incompetent.

I don't understand that at all. I noticed almost every time JW asked Dr. Demarte a question and she would begin her answer, Nurmi would break out in a huge smile, verging on laughter. This is a trial about a man who was slaughtered.... not mention, his client's life is on the line.... literally. What's there to be laughing or snickering about? After the jury has been excused for the day or for a break is one thing, but while court is in session, I think it's unprofessional and uncalled for.

 

[Gypseagirl]

Does anyone recall the name of the woman who was a friend of Travis's who committed suicide after her divorce?

I had not heard about this. I'm sure someone will come along and answer.

 

[Sleuth5]

The first thing I thought of when hearing of the ring was Jodi's Da saying in his interview with Detective Flores : "she was going to marry the guy"...

You know, there was a lot of speculation early on that it was that tale that she had been circulating back home that might have led to the rage after May 26. After all, she did move to Mesa after they "broke up," (but let's face it, there wasn't much to 'break up'), and that may have been partly to protect the fantasy she was still peddling to family regarding the coming nuptials. It would be entirely reasonable to imagine that she was sporting a ring of some kind when away from Travis, claiming that they were engaged.

It sounds nutty, of course, because it is. But it isn't any nuttier than women who pretend to be pregnant for nine months, and then, when their obvious deception will be paraded for all to see, desperately murder a pregnant women to steal their child. That is an inconceivably bizarre thing to do, but we know it as happened, and more often than we'd like to admit. Anyway, I think it's the same kind of "cornered animal" mentality that JA might very well have felt as she realized she was about to be thoroughly revealed and humiliated. I do not believe she could stand the thought psychologically, and given her obvious narcissism and who knows what other associative NPD's, the behavior would be entirely consistent.

For me, it was the statement of her father in the interview he gave to police that "she was planning on marrying him," or something to that effect, that really sealed the deal for me regarding this scenario. I could see then that she had been projecting an entirely false reality to others outside of the Mesa environment -- where she could easily control the dialog, since nobody knew the people in Mesa and could not verify anything she was saying one way or another. Because 'normal' people do not assume someone will lie about something like this, she was able to easily get away with the tale.

I'm not saying all people who have these disorders would resort to these extremes, of course. Only that in this case it does seem consistent with JA's behavioral patterns. She was caught -- the walls were closing in, and in her mind it made sense to simply remove the problem.

Note that after his death, she made every effort to inject herself into the center of all activities -- funerary, police investigation -- why? Because she still had that narrative of the "fiancee" running in her head, and she wanted to world to view her that way -- even though she knew she couldn't make that story work outside of a small, controlled, isolated group that did not know Travis. I say it's just part of her pathology. I hope I don't go batty trying to figure it out for myself.

:cow:

 

[mobius99]

And to me, the whole money thing has always bothered me... where did she get the money to flit around all over (ya know the price of gas in the west), buy expensive cameras.. and pay the kind of phone/internet bill she MUST have had with the HUGE number of texts/IMs/looong calls???? I know she didn't appear to pay room & board (always wanted to hear from g'parents on this), would work awhile, take her "road trips", work awhile.. but still....

I have posted about this several times. My hinky meter went up during one of the interview tapes between Jodi and Det Flores. I would have to go back and find it but, in it, Det Flores is asking questions about what happened to make her go to Mesa and when she decided to make the trip. (He wasn't buying her "it was a spur of the moment" decision)

In that exchange, she responds to Det Flores with (paraphrased): "Travis was always much more concerned about my money than he should be. He wanted to know how I could afford to go on my trips."

I've always thought that was an odd response. I think it's possible she pulled a scam on him involving money, or the car or something and he found out about it. The checks she left behind have never felt right for me.

 

[spcagrl]

I'm a believer that the motive was not MH or Cancun.

The killing would of have happened Cancun/Mimi or not. moo

I agree with you.....till I saw that "Cancun PPL" is on the states rebuttal list. IIRC, there has been quite a bit made of the fact that Jodi was NEVER going to Cancun, and that she knew all about it and was not upset.

But wait......what is "Cancun PPL"? is there a part of this company that works on putting together this annual trip? it IS an annual event for the company. If that is correct and Cancun PPL refers to a certain "department" in the company.....well, we might just find out that A) Jodie WAS originally scheduled to go, thus catching her in another lie. Or B) that Jodi switched Mimi's name out for hers somehow for the trip....which would play into the same lie, or could also be the underlying cause for Travis's text or email or whatever in late May. Seems like the timing would be about right for him to be getting his plane ressies/ tickets, etc.

Just wondering about silly stuff with no trial to discuss........

 

[DebinGA]

Re the lions v. tigers PTSD question, I'm too lazy to watch the video above, but iirc DrD said what's important is the victim's response/behavior after the trauma. I wished JM had spent much more time reviewing the numerous things Jodi did post-slaughter that showed she wasn't traumatized, but The Great One knows best.

 

[geevee]

That's easy, the ninjas wouldn't have let her live if they didn't know where her and her family lived.
Ninjas always think like that when they murder someone then let a witness go.
This was the best thing she could think of in the spur of the moment.
Just another truth according to Jodi no matter how crazy it sounds to normal non killing humans.
You are right though, nobody carries their car registration in their purse. They generally keep it in the glove box of their car that the registration is valid for.

If you listen closely to the things Det. Flores says to her in the interrogations, I think she got the idea that he was hinting to her to make up a story involving someone else.

Long before she makes up the ninja tale he says things about not finding any evidence of anyone else being there, etc. and even tells her she has to give him more, 'their details' - I think that's why the ninja story is so dumb, she thought he was going to help her make something believable up.

They did talk on the phone a few times before he came to Yreka and she is used to being able to manipulate people so I don't think it's too far out there to think she thought the nice detective was going help the maiden in distress as so many men have previously.