The Water Tanks

[MissedItByThatMuch]

Couldn't this be answered by forensics? We know that EL had to be identified by body marks. This says to me that her remains were fairly well decomposed, so given that bodies sink then float as they fill with gases I think it safe to guess she was floating. Unless, a piece of her clothing, a hoodie, for example was blocking the pipe?

A human body has nearly the same specific density of water, depending on fat content; the more fat versus bone, the better someone floats. But also, the density of water due to temperature changes can play a part, especially in winter. Usually, the colder the water, the greater the density, and the better anything within it will floa (but water density between 32 and 35 F is actually lighter than when it's above 35). Conceivably, in a California February, the tank-water tempertaures may have dropped into the 30s at times. Density is defined as weight per unit volume.

 

[MissedItByThatMuch]

As follow up, Conductor, here's on online quote: "I once studied a body that had risen to the surface with part of a brick wall tied to it by ropes around the chest. There were five bricks covered with mortar on each side of the body and still it floated...Of course, if the water is cold enough, the dead body may be held in "deep freeze" and it might never rise...Bodies usually stay underwater for between one and two weeks, although this varies widely and some bodies never come up at all. One of the factors which affects this is the temperature of the water."

http://www.hindu.com/seta/2001/11/01/stories/2001110100100401.htm

Apparently, a body bloated with decomposition gases has quite the power of buoyancy. While this does predict that Elisa should have been floating at the top of the tank with ease, the cold water would slow decomposition so that the question is, of course you must realize, what is her predicted state of decomposition after some 15 or 19 days in that cold water.

As another consideration if you want to get detailed, I read that building codes may require hotels to keep their tank water warm to a certain degree to save heating-energy consumption as per mixing cold tap water to hot, but obviously, or so is my guess, hotels don't require to heat water in the tanks when they are located on a roof (i.e. in contact with the outside air), because it adds up to more heating cost than heating the cold water at the tap.

What a grim topic.

 

[Conductor71]

The stuff I read about body decomp in water from the FBI website said that bodies will sink, then float, sink again, eventually refloat, and then sink permanently eventually due to significant decomposition. So there's no telling which cycle EL's body may have been in. And of course other factors could have been involved, such as suction or part of her body being stuck on something. Also, presumably the tank's water level rose and fell over time, so that shifting and movement could have created some condition that was unusual compared to a normal body in water.

Right, which means that her body could have been somewhere in between at any given point too, I suppose. I forgot about the refloat. I think that there is no such thing as a normal body found in water; each case looks unique. Most of what we read on bodies found in water focus on large bodies of water likes lake or oceans. I don't think there are many tank investigations to go on.

 

[findinganatta]

The water supply to the tanks needs to be, probably by law, sufficient in volume to handle a full-hotel water demand. Usually, city building codes add in a saftey feature just in case, meaning that the water supply to the tanks was MORE than able to handle typical full-hotel water demand. But as the Cecil was apparently not near to being full when Elisa was in the tank, it's doubtful the water level would go up and down in the tank unless the inlet valve was obstructed, which I don't find likely, but it happens.

snipped

I've wondered how these cisterns actually work. I figured that as the water level went down, eventually they would be refilled when they reached a certain level. But you're saying they more or less stay at the same level, and the water is replaced at about the rate that it's used?

 

[Ghostwheel]

it'll take more than a handful of ghost and true crime seekers to make up for the bad press of having a corpse in the water system...

I will have to respectfully disagree with you on that one. You might be amazed at the incredible number of ghost conventions, ghost hunters, ghost hunter groups, thrill seekers, et al. I know I am constantly amazed at how many people I run into when visiting what are considered haunted areas. I agree the average person will be completely turned off, though.

 

[Conductor71]

I have read a few accounts pointing out that EL or her killer would have had to seek a ladder and carry it to the tank. It is near impossible to find this discussed in earlier threads.

Does anyone recall if a ladder was found against the tank or not? Also, did the fire department use their own ladders to access the tank?

 

[Nickfalzone]

I have read a few accounts pointing out that EL or her killer would have had to seek a ladder and carry it to the tank. It is near impossible to find this discussed in earlier threads.

Does anyone recall if a ladder was found against the tank or not? Also, did the fire department use their own ladders to access the tank?

IIRC it was/is actually chained to the tank that she was found in.

 

[Sillybilly]

IIRC it was/is actually chained to the tank that she was found in.

No, the ladder that appeared to be secured by chain (or strapping) was against the tank next to the one she was found in. I think I posted a pic at the time, and will try to find it.

Here's the pic I linked to:

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topvideo/elisa-lam-update-022013_lead_media_image_1.jpg

Bottom left corner ... CTRL+ helps see it better.

 

[Sillybilly]

Come to think of it, the other 3 tanks don't have ladders affixed to them. When the maintenance man was checking the tanks for obstruction, he had to have used a ladder at the tank Elisa was found in (so presumably the wooden one???). Is Elisa's tank the only tank he checked or the first one, and why would he not have just used the aluminum ladder that was already at the tanks?

 

[Conductor71]

Come to think of it, the other 3 tanks don't have ladders affixed to them. When the maintenance man was checking the tanks for obstruction, he had to have used a ladder at the tank Elisa was found in (so presumably the wooden one???). Is Elisa's tank the only tank he checked or the first one, and why would he not have just used the aluminum ladder that was already at the tanks?

Seems such a trivial thing, but it really may be important if her death remains undetermined based on toxicology report. I would like to assume that ladders were not freely available at or near the tanks as it would have been a code violation let alone a potential liability, but I don't think the property was well maintained or cared for as the Cecil is banked owned.

IMO, the ladder would need have been in place for EL to climb in her self. Knowing where to find a ladder or looking for one, carrying it over to a tank? I don't see her doing that. It also further narrows down a perp to someone who knows that building pretty well. That could be former employees and returning guests.

 

[Nickfalzone]

Seems such a trivial thing, but it really may be important if her death remains undetermined based on toxicology report. I would like to assume that ladders were not freely available at or near the tanks as it would have been a code violation let alone a potential liability, but I don't think the property was well maintained or cared for as the Cecil is banked owned.

IMO, the ladder would need have been in place for EL to climb in her self. Knowing where to find a ladder or looking for one, carrying it over to a tank? I don't see her doing that. It also further narrows down a perp to someone who knows that building pretty well. That could be former employees and returning guests.

the ladder, if not chained to the tank (d/t code violation?), could certainly have been sitting in that creepy shed that we saw FD walking around in. Obv., the tank maintenance man/men, would be aware, beyond that, i suppose other hotel staff or residents familiar with roof/shed.

 

[Sillybilly]

Seems such a trivial thing, but it really may be important if her death remains undetermined based on toxicology report. I would like to assume that ladders were not freely available at or near the tanks as it would have been a code violation let alone a potential liability, but I don't think the property was well maintained or cared for as the Cecil is banked owned.

IMO, the ladder would need have been in place for EL to climb in her self. Knowing where to find a ladder or looking for one, carrying it over to a tank? I don't see her doing that. It also further narrows down a perp to someone who knows that building pretty well. That could be former employees and returning guests.

But if that aluminum ladder was always there, tethered to that other tank, she could have just climbed it and easily hopped onto the top of any of the other water tanks.

 

[noodled1]

But if that aluminum ladder was always there, tethered to that other tank, she could have just climbed it and easily hopped onto the top of any of the other water tanks.

Exactly, doesn't matter which tank the ladder was leaning against. Those tanks are so close together once on top you can move around freely from tank top to tank top.

From the looks of the pics it looks like that ladder had been there quite some time

 

[findinganatta]

Exactly, doesn't matter which tank the ladder was leaning against. Those tanks are so close together once on top you can move around freely from tank top to tank top.

From the looks of the pics it looks like that ladder had been there quite some time

I wonder if that particular ladder might have been there for a specific purpose, like as a way to access something that was frequently (or recently) adjusted or repaired. If you notice, there is some kind of material wrapped around the pipes there, which could relate to the ladder. Or it could be a spot where a knob is, or something along those lines.

As for the ladder issue in general, regardless of whether the firemen put the wooden one there or not, I feel confident that there was a ladder available on the roof that EL or someone else could have accessed to put against the particular tank she was in. Although, as you all said, it wouldn't have been needed, because she could have climbed up that metal one and decided to go over to the other tank for whatever reason (the lid of the other one would't open, etc... who knows?).

Personally, I can easily believe that EL might have carried a ladder over there herself, but it's even more believable that a ladder was already leaning on the tank because that very well could have given her the idea to climb up in the first place.

Of course, if you introduce the possibility of foul play or another person being involved, then any number of options could be possible.

 

[Sillybilly]

I have never been on a rooftop like that in my life or seen water tanks like those. I cannot imagine, had i gone onto that rooftop, that I would have looked way up toward the top of those tanks and thought "I wonder how you get inside those things" (because it never would have occurred to me that they were not totally self-contained like a hot water tank) or "hey, I betcha there are access holes on the top of these things".

Maybe I just gotta get out more

 

[BlueShoe]

Good point, sillybilly. Generally, these types of tanks would be locked or secured in some way. Why would someone climb on one just to see? Either she knew about the tanks already because she had been on the roof previously, or someone was with her (unless she was carried up already dead).

The counter-argument that she was having a psychotic break and that people become very inventive and capable during these just does not ring true to me, but it is only my opinion.

 

[chellebelle71]

I'm not sure if this will work (I've had trouble posting links in the past), but here is a link for a Facebook album for some photos I took at The Cecil about a month ago. I tried to get some good shots of the wooden ladder and tank access in general. Some are artsy fartsy but you can just ignore those https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10101562000061184.1073741826.3316699&type=1&l=8bf4199584

 

[chellebelle71]

Why would someone climb on one just to see? Either she knew about the tanks already because she had been on the roof previously, or someone was with her (unless she was carried up already dead).

We simply cannot rationalize the thoughts and behaviors of an irrational mind. Hopefully the toxicology report will shed some light on all of this. If they ever release it...

 

[BlueShoe]

I agree that any scenario is possible, I'm just thinking about likelihood. My guess (and it is only a guess) is that an irrational mind would not go rooftop exploring to such an extent. However, if she knew of the tanks already, and had been up there on previous nights, the likelihood increases, at least IMO. Also, if someone was with her, they could have climbed up and there could have been some kind of accident, which the other person covered up. The toxicology report alone won't really answer my questions, but it may rule out a few of the multiple possibilities. If, as you say, it is ever released.

 

[Nickfalzone]

Physically - could Elisa even crawl into the tank on her own? I haven't seen clear photos one way or another of the ladder next to the tank, but it looks like it would require a fair amount of physical strength for an individual to get themselves in there. It looks like it would be easier to drop someone in there than for someone to actually try and crawl in there.

Circumstantially - I don't think it's a coincidence that a dead body was found in an ideal "hiding" spot in the hotel. If the perp was stuck with the body, could not easily/safely transport it out of the hotel (due to elevator/lobby cameras, etc.) and needed to store it somewhere in the hotel, the basement and the roof would be logical locations. We don't know much about the basement, but my guess is that it is monitored much more closely than the roof. On the roof, you have the shed, which is a potential spot to hide it, but other by far the best spot would be in the water tank - the metal container plus breeze on roof would mask the smell, and the water would decompose/destroy evidence in a fairly effective way. If homicide, which to me seems obvious, the killer was both intimately familiar with the hotel, with the roof/water tank, and with CSI type techniques to cover his tracks. This could either be a guest that scoped out the place well in advance, a resident, an outside contractor, or it could be an inside job. I am less convinced it is a resident, simply because they would be under significant scrutiny. I believe it was done by either a staff member or an outside contractor - and to be more specific, it was someone with an authority position that could order Elisa around. Additionally, I believe that the shed on the roof was used as an enclosure for rape/murder, and the body was then easily transported to the tank.