Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

[SMK]

I doubt she was born that way. Maybe she was born more needy, but there are many studies that indicate what we should do as parents and what happens when we do not.

Not answering a baby's cries. Leaving children in front of the TV or in containers such as playpens, baby seats, fighting with your spouse, even if the baby is asleep, propping the bottle. Many many things . And then there are the obvious cigarette burns, wallops, etc.

I taught school for 30 years in poverty schools. i had 100's of students. In that time, I had two students that did not respond to positive reinforcement. Ignoring the bad and responding to the appropriate,

The two children. One the mother had made RAD and no hope working with the mother to make the child's life better. The other one was spoiled rotten and the mother and grandparents would not admit that the child did anything wrong. It was ALWAYS someone else's fault.

I believe in parenting errors. Huge errors. Lack of love is probably the biggest one that causes issues.

Parents may nit like reading this, but if we do not work on raising children, we are in deep doo doo

.

Bravo, well said.:clap::clap: One of the most difficult things to accept, as Alice Miller said, is the idea that parents can be malevolent. It goes against a deeply rooted idea that to not "honor thy mother and father" is a mortal sin.

This idea that Jodi was born a monster, and that her poor family grew weary of dealing with the beast, is making a HUGE leap, jumping to a massive conclusion without sufficient evidence, and assuming that this rare, rare case of the ogre who is "born that way" is a better explanation than that it was her parents' fault, which is FAR more common and far more likely.

I have a sister who is very much like Jodi (but has not killed----done plenty of crazy things, though). She was not born a monster, but was ignored as were her siblings, witnessed extreme parental fighting, etc. I always see my parents' sins reflected in her behavior.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Funny but my Auntie (who is in her early 70's) still has a thing for "bad boys".

Ugh!

I've seen and known too many Jersey "bad boys" and grew way past that type many years ago.

My saying now is "nice guys finish first"!!!

:seeya:

 

[Frigga]

Jodi is a liar.

Seems her mother was easier to manipulate without her dad around.


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Gee, where have we seen that before? KC and Cindy Anthony! Herein lies the rub- I DO think that George and Cindy were a big factor in how KC turned out, I just do- and always have. Cindy has some serious issues, as does George. There is pathology at work in that family and I believe there may have been in JAA family, as well. Maybe it is a bit of both... the perfect storm, if you will. Parental neglect, violence, alcoholism, drug abuse etc. and a child with hard wiring that is 'off' and well, KC and JAA are the results? Why not both?

 

[SMK]

She may have been born that way indeed.
The most recent brain flouroscopy studies in BPD's for instance (and I believe LindaNJ has cited in Psychopath/Sociopath's too via Dr. Hare studies) shows a disconnect in the neurological wiring and responses between the amygdala and the frontal cortex. To simplify the results: the amygdala over-responds to stimuli and the cortex under-responds and is flat. This is a completely genetic, born-this-way fault.

And then of course, there are many empirical studies that show people with a personality disorder (and some mood disorders) have a greater number of first generation relatives with the same thing----in other words, namely their parents.

While I don't believe that it is all nature, I would never say it is all nurture either.

MOO.....your mileage and research may vary.

Brain chemistry/wiring can be a secondary effect, and not a primary cause, of sociopathology. Brain chemistry/wiring can be effected by trauma. Fighting and dysfunctional behavior gets passed down through the generations. Brain science is just a bias: It assumes far too much in its "born that way" premise. Even if a child is badly wired, parental love and care would still make them turn out far better.....

 

[SMK]

Gee, where have we seen that before? KC and Cindy Anthony! Herein lies the rub- I DO think that George and Cindy were a big factor in how KC turned out, I just do- and always have. Cindy has some serious issues, as does George. There is pathology at work in that family and I believe there may have been in JAA family, as well. Maybe it is a bit of both... the perfect storm, if you will. Parental neglect, violence, alcoholism, drug abuse etc. and a child with hard wiring that is 'off' and well, KC and JAA are the results? Why not both?

I agree: It is probably both. BUT with both Jodi and Casey Antony, I believe the "perfect storm" could have and SHOULD have been prevented by the parents.

 

[SMK]

I agree with you, I'd say you're right about that in the vast majority of cases... however I do believe sometimes they're just born defective. The wiring is just not right.

Jodi learned to lie, manipulate and triangulate to get her goals met. Notice I said goals not needs. And when that failed, she decided to murder.

I'd bet her younger siblings suffered plenty due to Jodi's manipulation and lies.


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Yes, probably all true: But I'll bet Jodi learned very early on to lie and manipulate because her parents simply would not meet her needs: This is what parents MUST do, or pay the price with a "defective" child.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Brain chemistry/wiring can be a secondary effect, and not a primary cause, of sociopathology. Brain chemistry/wiring can be effected by trauma. Fighting and dysfunctional behavior gets passed down through the generations. Brain science is just a bias: It assumes far too much in its "born that way" premise. Even if a child is badly wired, parental love and care would still make them turn out far better.....

Link please to what I've boldened in your statement above.
TIA.

 

[Frigga]

I agree: It is probably both. BUT with both Jodi and Casey Antony, I believe the "perfect storm" could have and SHOULD have been prevented by the parents.

I couldn't agree more with what you bolded!

 

[SMK]

JA said that she pleaded with her mother to leave her father, I'm not sure what it might imply, but suggests something.

Of course it does. Little girls love their fathers. If a girl pleads with mother to leave Dad (and I did the same) then you can bank on it: Something is radically, dangerously off about the father. Right now, my niece is begging my sister (her Mom) to leave her father: Rest assured, the father has been swearing at them, smashing things, insulting them cruelly, etc.

 

[SMK]

Link please to what I've boldened in your statement above.
TIA.

I don't understand. What do you want me to link? I thought you had provided a link, but there was none. (ETA: SEE POST BELOW)

 

[SMK]

You mean:

Researchers have found a connection between PTSD and brain chemistry.

What happens to the brain during and immediately after the critical, traumatic event will determine how each unique individual will respond, develop, or recover from PTSD.

“Essentially, the chemicals that flood the brain during the trauma do so in order to help the person to survive the event, either by running away, or fighting furiously. A third option, to submit to the trauma also has brain chemistry implications. In some individuals, once the brain goes through this chemical ‘rewiring’ to survive the trauma, the wiring stays that way” (Briere, J., 2009).

https://sites.google.com/site/consu...atic-stress-disorder/ptsd-and-brain-chemistry

If PTSD can affect wiring and chemistry, then a young child exposed to trauma could be "rewired" from that trauma.

 

[DAWN TREADER]

Gee, where have we seen that before? KC and Cindy Anthony! Herein lies the rub- I DO think that George and Cindy were a big factor in how KC turned out, I just do- and always have. Cindy has some serious issues, as does George. There is pathology at work in that family and I believe there may have been in JAA family, as well. Maybe it is a bit of both... the perfect storm, if you will. Parental neglect, violence, alcoholism, drug abuse etc. and a child with hard wiring that is 'off' and well, KC and JAA are the results? Why not both?

I agree with you Frigga --- then there's Scott Peterson - The Shiny Baby who grew up to be The Golden Boy. I wouldn't be surprised if to this day his parents still believe he was wrongly convicted of the murders of Laci and Conner. His half-sister Anne Bird does not believe he's innocent. I don't know about the rest of his siblings.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

SMK:
No, you made a statement that I wanted you to attach a link to support your statement.

JA doesn't have PTSD and I think it is a stretch to think any research on such can be applied to personality disorders (which is what JA has per Dr. DeMarte).

 

[SMK]

SMK:
No, you made a statement that I wanted you to attach a link to support your statement.

JA doesn't have PTSD and I think it is a stretch to think any research on such can be applied to personality disorders (which is what JA has per Dr. DeMarte).

See above link and quote. Her not having PTSD does not preclude the clear inference that brain chemistry and wiring CAN be affected by outside events. It is crystal clear , and logical deduction supports this.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

As I have mentioned, Personality Disorders can be genetic ("nature"), or environmental ("nurture") as per article below.

Title: What Medications are used for BPD and what their side effects?
Post by: Skippy on July 12, 2006, 08:20:39 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

National Institute of Mental HealthA brief overview that focuses on the symptoms, treatments, and research findings. (2001).
http://wwwapps.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/borderline-personality-disorder.shtml

Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is a serious mental illness characterized by pervasive instability in moods, interpersonal relationships, self-image, and behavior.

Treatment

Treatments for BPD have improved in recent years. Group and individual psychotherapy are at least partially effective for many patients. Within the past 15 years, a new psychosocial treatment termed dialectical behavior therapy (DBT) was developed specifically to treat BPD, and this technique has looked promising in treatment studies.6 Pharmacological treatments are often prescribed based on specific target symptoms shown by the individual patient. Antidepressant drugs and mood stabilizers may be helpful for depressed and/or labile mood. Antipsychotic drugs may also be used when there are distortions in thinking.7

Recent Research Findings

Although the cause of BPD is unknown, both environmental and genetic factors are thought to play a role in predisposing patients to BPD symptoms and traits. Studies show that many, but not all individuals with BPD report a history of abuse, neglect, or separation as young children.8 Forty to 71 percent of BPD patients report having been sexually abused, usually by a non-caregiver.9 Researchers believe that BPD results from a combination of individual vulnerability to environmental stress, neglect or abuse as young children, and a series of events that trigger the onset of the disorder as young adults. Adults with BPD are also considerably more likely to be the victim of violence, including rape and other crimes. This may result from both harmful environments as well as impulsivity and poor judgement in choosing partners and lifestyles.

NIMH-funded neuroscience research is revealing brain mechanisms underlying the impulsivity, mood instability, aggression, anger, and negative emotion seen in BPD. Studies suggest that people predisposed to impulsive aggression have impaired regulation of the neural circuits that modulate emotion.10 The amygdala, a small almond-shaped structure deep inside the brain, is an important component of the circuit that regulates negative emotion. In response to signals from other brain centers indicating a perceived threat, it marshals fear and arousal. This might be more pronounced under the influence of drugs like alcohol, or stress. Areas in the front of the brain (pre-frontal area) act to dampen the activity of this circuit. Recent brain imaging studies show that individual differences in the ability to activate regions of the prefrontal cerebral cortex thought to be involved in inhibitory activity predict the ability to suppress negative emotion.11

 

[SMK]

As I have mentioned, Personality Disorders can be genetic ("nature"), or environmental ("nurture") as per article below.

Title: What Medications are used for BPD and what their side effects?
Post by: Skippy on July 12, 2006, 08:20:39 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

National Institute of Mental HealthA brief overview that focuses on the symptoms, treatments, and research findings. (2001).
http://wwwapps.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/borderline-personality-disorder.shtml

Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is a serious mental illness characterized by pervasive instability in moods, interpersonal relationships, self-image, and behavior.

Treatment

Treatments for BPD have improved in recent years. Group and individual psychotherapy are at least partially effective for many patients. Within the past 15 years, a new psychosocial treatment termed dialectical behavior therapy (DBT) was developed specifically to treat BPD, and this technique has looked promising in treatment studies.6 Pharmacological treatments are often prescribed based on specific target symptoms shown by the individual patient. Antidepressant drugs and mood stabilizers may be helpful for depressed and/or labile mood. Antipsychotic drugs may also be used when there are distortions in thinking.7

Recent Research Findings

Although the cause of BPD is unknown, both environmental and genetic factors are thought to play a role in predisposing patients to BPD symptoms and traits. Studies show that many, but not all individuals with BPD report a history of abuse, neglect, or separation as young children.8 Forty to 71 percent of BPD patients report having been sexually abused, usually by a non-caregiver.9 Researchers believe that BPD results from a combination of individual vulnerability to environmental stress, neglect or abuse as young children, and a series of events that trigger the onset of the disorder as young adults. Adults with BPD are also considerably more likely to be the victim of violence, including rape and other crimes. This may result from both harmful environments as well as impulsivity and poor judgement in choosing partners and lifestyles.

NIMH-funded neuroscience research is revealing brain mechanisms underlying the impulsivity, mood instability, aggression, anger, and negative emotion seen in BPD. Studies suggest that people predisposed to impulsive aggression have impaired regulation of the neural circuits that modulate emotion.10 The amygdala, a small almond-shaped structure deep inside the brain, is an important component of the circuit that regulates negative emotion. In response to signals from other brain centers indicating a perceived threat, it marshals fear and arousal. This might be more pronounced under the influence of drugs like alcohol, or stress. Areas in the front of the brain (pre-frontal area) act to dampen the activity of this circuit. Recent brain imaging studies show that individual differences in the ability to activate regions of the prefrontal cerebral cortex thought to be involved in inhibitory activity predict the ability to suppress negative emotion.11

Right. This is what I am saying. I see no proof with Arias that it was ALL genetic. None at all.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Right. This is what I am saying. I see no proof with Arias that it was ALL genetic. None at all.

I have been very clear that no researcher would ever say it is ALL genetic. I never would say that either.

What you said (which I disagree with) is that genetics is secondary and her environmental scenario is the primary cause of sociopathy.

I find that impossible to say without more research and information about her upbringing.

 

[SMK]

I have been very clear that no researcher would ever say it is ALL genetic. I never would say that either.

What you said (which I disagree with) is that genetics is secondary and her environmental scenario is the primary cause of sociopathy.

I find that impossible to say without more research and information about her upbringing.

Agreed: But there neither is there definitive proof that the genetics is a primary cause, and the home environment, secondary. We would need further study of the situation, and input from someone other than the parents themselves, who are not going to be forthcoming about their own flaws (if indeed they even see them at all).

 

[OEJ]

I think Narcissistic PD can be inherited (nature) or developed as a result of environment ( nurture).

I think the important factor is if a person is born a narcissist, they are born without the empathy for others and the constant want for attention.


If they develop narcissist PD it could be a result of a lack of attention and empathy lavished upon one in youth by parents/peers. But I couldn't imagine this being the case with Jodi as it seems she didn't go through extreme and grave neglect.


Psychs consider essentially all PD's can be created by either nature or nurture OR a combination of both nature and nurture simultaneously.

What I see more than anything in the NPD is parental indulgence. The child can do no wrong which I consider extremely abusive.

I've also seen it with a parent who swings back and forth between undervaluing and overvaluing the child. It would take a strong child not to succumb to a situation where their own personality does not develop because of trying to please a parent who insists on turning their own child into narcissistic supply.

I think Jodi's BPD problem of overvaluing/undervaluing was made significantly worse by her NPD grandiosity...possibly.

I hear NPD is not even in the DSM-5. I don't get that at all unless the same symptoms are being seen in a lot of the other personality disorders.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Jodi is a liar.

Seems her mother was easier to manipulate without her dad around.


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The family dynamics are very similar to Cindy and Casey Anthony..... get the husband out of the way if he is the disciplinarian. Divide and conquer..