Amanda Berry, Gina deJesus & Michelle Knight - General discussion #4

[borndem]

I think it's all an act. He's hoping to build a case for an insanity defense. Just my gut feeling.

Just joining this thread -- I may not be able to stick with it since it is so very cruel and bizarre... But at least the women have their lives, each other, and support...

As to AC, gxm, at this point I agree with you about it being an act. Certainly there is lots & lots of "wrong" with him, but I don't see what would be called legal insanity, if that is what he's trying to do.

We at WS have seen a lot of horrible things from all kinds of people: spouses, girl- or boyfriends, parents, strangers, etc., etc., but in most cases, it's that specter we refer to as "evil." It's not legal insanity, according to the standard M'naghten rule.

Methinks AC is gonna have to act "crazier" before things really get started for it to be thought of as something more than acting out or just plain faking it. JMO...

We'll see...

 

[mysteriew]

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/lo...esus-and-family-get-new-privacy-fence-donated

I'm glad they saw the need and offered to do it. I heard that she was unable to go out in the yard and that really bothered me. Denied the ability to go outside for so long, now able to go outside but driven back in because of reporters.

Now hopefully she can actually go outside and relax away from prying eyes.

 

[borndem]

I kind of can't believe the father of the best friend of one of the missing girls essentially lived in a boarded up dungeon (looking at exterior photos), smack in the middle of the neighborhood, and no one ever connected the dots.

I have a hard time with all of it, too, Ariane, but then I think about Ted Bundy (he did change locations from time to time), Ken Bianchi and his cousin (they killed mostly prostitutes whom few would miss), Dahmer, Gacy, Rader (BTK killer), etc., etc., and they all left bodies in their wake. They had relatives, friends, co-workers, etc., and neighbors, etc.

It's partly their masks of sanity, and partly the other folks just trying to get along with their own lives, I guess, and we are all too busy-busy. But the boarded up windows, etc., do give me pause. I would not want anyone I know having anything to do with anybody living in a house such as that unless I knew a good reason for it -- is a "good reason" even possible?? It is indeed, just plain odd, isn't it?? Gives me shivers...

 

[borndem]

I think not having Michelle's case in the system is what made it harder to find them. If you look at Michelle's case too, you see a cluster of all 3 women going missing around the neighborhood of Wilbur Wright. That would make you think it was either someone in that neighborhood or someone who felt comfortable in that neighborhood. Maybe even someone who had children in that school.

I attended a community meeting about a year ago in this neighborhood. The district police captain came and spoke and he specifically brought up Gina and Amanda, and how they still continued to look into leads on their cases and that they were personally very committed to finding these girls. Being in the room with him when he said that, I believe him.

bbm

Thanks for the post, Irish -- I believe him, too. Certainly for LE who were with the police force when the young women went missing, it would still be a sore spot and a nagging regret. LE has children, too, and they also see some of the worst stuff that people can do to people.

In a city the size of Cleveland, rapes, armed robberies, murders, hate crimes, run-aways, missing children/teenagers, etc., etc., happen every day (though not all on the same day), and it is their job to go to the site of the crime/event, to interview, fingerprint, take pictures, write reports, follow up, make phone calls and to-do lists, take calls from concerned parents/spouses/friends who want progress reports, etc., etc. Time moves along, and the bodies, missing persons, crimes against people, and others keep occurring. But that doesn't mean that a LEO would ever forget a case that is still in the unsolved or cold case file.

 

[mysteriew]

I have a hard time with all of it, too, Ariane, but then I think about Ted Bundy (he did change locations from time to time), Ken Bianchi and his cousin (they killed mostly prostitutes whom few would miss), Dahmer, Gacy, Rader (BTK killer), etc., etc., and they all left bodies in their wake. They had relatives, friends, co-workers, etc., and neighbors, etc.

It's partly their masks of sanity, and partly the other folks just trying to get along with their own lives, I guess, and we are all too busy-busy. But the boarded up windows, etc., do give me pause. I would not want anyone I know having anything to do with anybody living in a house such as that unless I knew a good reason for it -- is a "good reason" even possible?? It is indeed, just plain odd, isn't it?? Gives me shivers...

He blended. Most people think that someone capable of kidnapping and brutalizing a woman, let alone 3 women would look like monsters. But he like many others blended. He held a responsible job. (Public wouldn't be privy to any job issues.) He was in a band. He was allegedly helpful in the neighborhood. He got out and about in the community. He even played benefits for the missing girls. And evidently he had at least some personal charm, as some people seemed to like him.

Everything just the opposite that you would expect of a kidnapper/raper/torturer.

Yeah maybe he had some quirks. (Like locked doors, junk in the yard) but that was his home not theirs. When out with others it seems like he put in the effort to fit in.

What can we learn from this? In a situation everyone has to be looked at. Even the nice ones.

 

[borndem]

Interesting. I had to sit back for a minute when I read that and think about it. Totally see how it could be seen that way. Honestly though, I don't think the locals see it that way. This is the family owned shop in town, as opposed to the Pizza Huts, Dominos, etc., and the family that owns it is part of this community and has been forever, so I think here it made total sense for them to do something like this.

I agree, Irish -- this gesture was what this particular family could do. I was touched by what they did -- they could have sent a "thinking about you" card or made a donation to a missing children fund, etc., but they did this thing that no other person or place in town could do. Unique and special, IMO.

 

[KaaBoom]

Sometime between Aug. 2005 and Oct. 31, 2005, Castro took both Knight and Berry to his garage, where he chained them to the inside of a van for sexual purposes, according to the indictment. He then took them back into the house.

http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/302638/45/LATEST--Ariel-Castro-indicted-by-grand-jury

That part I understand. It's pretty clear. I was looking at the actually indictment, where he is charged with monthly rapes. Maybe there testimony is going to be that it happened at least once a month. So they are going to charge him with it for every month. It just seems a little vague to me.

 

[KaaBoom]

I have a hard time with all of it, too, Ariane, but then I think about Ted Bundy (he did change locations from time to time), Ken Bianchi and his cousin (they killed mostly prostitutes whom few would miss), Dahmer, Gacy, Rader (BTK killer), etc., etc., and they all left bodies in their wake. They had relatives, friends, co-workers, etc., and neighbors, etc.

It's partly their masks of sanity, and partly the other folks just trying to get along with their own lives, I guess, and we are all too busy-busy. But the boarded up windows, etc., do give me pause. I would not want anyone I know having anything to do with anybody living in a house such as that unless I knew a good reason for it -- is a "good reason" even possible?? It is indeed, just plain odd, isn't it?? Gives me shivers...

I believe the reason he gave people, was fear of crime. He told them that he was afraid that someone was going to break in and steal his music equipment.

My guess would be that he was the weird uncle in the family that nobody really wanted to talk about. I think it is not that uncommon for some people to live like that. It's seems like most neighborhoods have at least one rundown house like that with covered windows and a resident who is rarely seen.

 

[CazzBa]

If I'm understanding it correctly they are charging him with kidnaping for each time he moved them from the house to the garage, and then again when he moved them back to the house. Seems a little weird to me, how they can charge someone with kidnaping someone who have already been kidnapped. But I guess they know what they are doing.

I've been following this thread for a while for updates on this awful story and I figured I'd chime in with my first WebSleuths post.

Anyway, I think I might have an answer as to why Ariel Castro is facing so many kidnapping charges. The wording of the kidnapping charges says that Ariel Castro "did, by force, threat or deception, purposely remove Jane Doe X from the place where she was found or restrain the liberty of her for the purpose of ..."
And there's two kinds of kidnapping in this case, kidnapping "for the purpose of terrorizing or inflicting serious physical harm..." and kidnapping "for the purpose of engaging in sexual activity..."

I think the key words are "restrain the liberty of..." meaning anytime the girls were tied down or physically restrained in any way, that counts as a kidnapping charge, and I think the indictment implies that every time that monster sexually assaulted one of the girls, he restrained them, which means a kidnapping charge.

Each of the "monthly" rape charges (the ones not tied to a specific date) listed in the second half of the indictment seems to be associated with 1 count of kidnapping type 2 (sexual activity) whereas the assaults that occurred on specific days listed at the beginning of the indictment are associated with 2 counts of kidnapping (both the "terrorizing" and "sexual activity" types of kidnapping).

Then when you add in the kidnapping charges for abducting the girls in the first place, plus moving Jane Doe 1 and 2 to the garage and back the house etc. you get a very high total. I could be completely off base with all this, but that's what I think might be going on.

I'll throw in another link to the indictment:
http://prosecutor.cuyahogacounty.us/pdf/2013_06_07/Indictment-574231-13-CR.pdf

 

[thefragile7393]

I believe the reason he gave people, was fear of crime. He told them that he was afraid that someone was going to break in and steal his music equipment.

My guess would be that he was the weird uncle in the family that nobody really wanted to talk about. I think it is not that uncommon for some people to live like that. It's seems like most neighborhoods have at least one rundown house like that with covered windows and a resident who is rarely seen.

Yeah I have lived in a neighborhood that had homes like this....partially boarded.up. Hard to say what, if anything, they were hiding.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

 

[borndem]

I've been following this thread for a while for updates on this awful story and I figured I'd chime in with my first WebSleuths post.

Anyway, I think I might have an answer as to why Ariel Castro is facing so many kidnapping charges. The wording of the kidnapping charges says that Ariel Castro "did, by force, threat or deception, purposely remove Jane Doe X from the place where she was found or restrain the liberty of her for the purpose of ..."
And there's two kinds of kidnapping in this case, kidnapping "for the purpose of terrorizing or inflicting serious physical harm..." and kidnapping "for the purpose of engaging in sexual activity..."

I think the key words are "restrain the liberty of..." meaning anytime the girls were tied down or physically restrained in any way, that counts as a kidnapping charge, and I think the indictment implies that every time that monster sexually assaulted one of the girls, he restrained them, which means a kidnapping charge.

Each of the "monthly" rape charges (the ones not tied to a specific date) listed in the second half of the indictment seems to be associated with 1 count of kidnapping type 2 (sexual activity) whereas the assaults that occurred on specific days listed at the beginning of the indictment are associated with 2 counts of kidnapping (both the "terrorizing" and "sexual activity" types of kidnapping).

Then when you add in the kidnapping charges for abducting the girls in the first place, plus moving Jane Doe 1 and 2 to the garage and back the house etc. you get a very high total. I could be completely off base with all this, but that's what I think might be going on.

I'll throw in another link to the indictment:
http://prosecutor.cuyahogacounty.us/pdf/2013_06_07/Indictment-574231-13-CR.pdf

Thanks, CazzBa -- I agree with your explanation -- I know in some cases where customers at a "quick mart" type place were held in the store while a robbery took place -- or if they were forced into a storeroom, etc., -- the robbers (usually armed) were also charged with 1 count of kidnapping for each shopper held under gun point. In some states there are 2 counts of kidnapping -- 1st and 2nd degree -- as well.

And one more thang, CazzBa:

:welcome:

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We're glad you're here!


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[borndem]

I highly doubt they would put him in GP. I have to admit if they did, it would be interesting to watch. I doubt he would last a day. This is one of those cases that even before trial there is no doubt about guilt. What the heck is the appropriate punishment for someone that kidnaps multiple girls and imprisons them for decades? LWOP is the only answer.

He was also responsible for several forced miscarriages -- from earlier reading, it sounded to me like Ohio has the "actions resulting in miscarriages can be charged as murder" law (d'oh, or however it is worded). Does Ohio have the Death Penalty?

But I do agree, B'Luck, that GP would be quite a nightmare for poor AC. Talk about a beat-down... Such a pity...

 

[Jan]

A friend of ours in our Sunday school class visited the Castro family last weekend and brought back pictures and videos. He went to the uncle's store (the uncle is his friend) and within 15 minutes of arriving was given a hot meal in the back of the store. The store is where many neighborhood people hang out, even now after Ariel's crime became known. The family was welcoming and kind and invited our friend to go to church with them on Sunday if he wanted to. He says they are wonderful people. (Ariel is their nephew.) Their store is right near the house that Ariel lived in. Our friend talked to the neighbors who live across the street from where the girls were held captive. The neighbors said they talked to Ariel every day and had no clue that he was hiding the girls in his home. The neighbors said that the guy who was on television taking credit for getting the first girl out wasn't really the one who got her out of the house. It was a Latino man who doesn't speak English who got the girl out and the other guy arrived on the scene shortly after. Our friend said that even now there is a 24 hour police guard on the house of Ariel Castro because its part of the evidence in the crime. Our friend used to live in this neighborhood so he knows a lot of the people there. He had more to tell about the Castro family situation but didn't want to take up the whole Sunday school class with that, so he didn't tell the rest today.

 

[Opie]

To answer a question above: Yes, Ohio does have the death penalty.

 

[borndem]

I know this is true. I'm from the Greater Cleveland area myself, own rental properties (actually within 4-5 blocks of where all 3 girls were abducted) that get filled up with peoples junk. And these are nice city doubles. I'm always tossing out entire tree lawns of stuff when people move. Its not hard to imagine entire rooms being out of commission. Now think of people that own these old houses, don't move& do not rent. I've looked at homes like this for sale to investors like me, that have areas u can't even access! So its possible that people wouldn't really think it completely strange that there are rooms not fit to look into. Heck I was at one house, the third floor of which had had motorcycles hanging on chains from the rafters as they were being worked on.

:welcome6:

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[JerseyGirl]

A friend of ours in our Sunday school class visited the Castro family last weekend and brought back pictures and videos. He went to the uncle's store (the uncle is his friend) and within 15 minutes of arriving was given a hot meal in the back of the store. The store is where many neighborhood people hang out, even now after Ariel's crime became known. The family was welcoming and kind and invited our friend to go to church with them on Sunday if he wanted to. He says they are wonderful people. (Ariel is their nephew.) Their store is right near the house that Ariel lived in. Our friend talked to the neighbors who live across the street from where the girls were held captive. The neighbors said they talked to Ariel every day and had no clue that he was hiding the girls in his home. The neighbors said that the guy who was on television taking credit for getting the first girl out wasn't really the one who got her out of the house. It was a Latino man who doesn't speak English who got the girl out and the other guy arrived on the scene shortly after. Our friend said that even now there is a 24 hour police guard on the house of Ariel Castro because its part of the evidence in the crime. Our friend used to live in this neighborhood so he knows a lot of the people there. He had more to tell about the Castro family situation but didn't want to take up the whole Sunday school class with that, so he didn't tell the rest today.

it's good to hear business picked up, if you read this post soon after Castro's arrest. Sounds like nice people.

http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/300109/45/Ariel-Castros-family-paying-the-price

 

[borndem]

Typically his cell would be something like this.

Still too good for him, but guess it's the best we can get.

Where are the chains???? Grrrrrr.

 

[borndem]

I dont think it is such a big deal. He is in a cell on suicide watch. Perhaps, he was just bathing himself. There is no privacy. I am sure in jail those who are incarcerated have to be nude. I think it is being blown out of porportion by the media

I think you're 100% right, carmenugt, about the suicide watch and him being nude. In some jails/prisons, someone on suicide watch has to wear a suicide gown (very becoming, I must say). It's made of very strong material that can't be shredded for making a noose, etc. And the prisoner would have no sheets, or either specially made ones...

So if a jail/prison did not have the special items, the prisoner would prolly have to be nude when on suicide watch.

Fashion statement below, showing model wearing the suicide gown:

 

[BeginnersLuck]

He was also responsible for several forced miscarriages -- from earlier reading, it sounded to me like Ohio has the "actions resulting in miscarriages can be charged as murder" law (d'oh, or however it is worded). Does Ohio have the Death Penalty?

But I do agree, B'Luck, that GP would be quite a nightmare for poor AC. Talk about a beat-down... Such a pity...

My comment "LWOP is the only answer" sounded so strange. I didn't really explain myself well at all.

I would like to see him confined in a room 24/7 for the rest of his life, with nothing to do but stare at the walls. The death penalty seems like a easy way out for him. But, if he is on death row he may get less privileges and more confinement, so maybe the death penalty would be a better punishment for him.

 

[CazzBa]

Typically his cell would be something like this.

Where are the chains???? Grrrrrr.

I know, having Ariel Castro imprisoned like this just doesn't seem like justice.

Natural light, freedom to move around at least within his cell, regular exercise (I'm assuming he'll get that even if he's put on death row), regular meals (doubt if Ohio prison food is that good, but its gotta beat McDonald's for 10 years), perks and privileges like TVs, radios etc. and I'm sure a lot of other things I haven't thought of -- the girls had none of those things for a decade in their prison.

Sigh.