Happenings of December 26

[Chrishope]

Stellar. If I've seen this reasoning or heard this before, somehow it flew right by. No wonder JR was so fidgety after showing back up around noon.

I'm just agreeing with InstantProof that JR has nothing to loose finding the body when he did, and it might look worse if someone else finds her (in another 7 hours?)

Not that it looks very good. I mean there is a RN, which makes police hinky as soon as they read it, then there's a body so -poof- the kidnapping disappears. At that point there is a body, hidden in the WC, and fake RN, and only 3 people who were in the house at the TOD. I guess if that isn't probable cause for arrest, then it's hard to have PC w/o a smoking gun.

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But does this mean that even if French would have looked in that room instead of bypassing it, it still would have been thought they were trying to hide the body? I would think so?? Would police have thought the RN was even more bogus at that point, and arrested the R's right then and there??

I don't see how the police could think anything else but this - one of these 3 people in the house killed this little girl and ginned up a fake RN to explain it. To me, as soon as the body is discovered there is a murder with a fake kidnap scenario to cover it, and 3 suspects. But it's interesting that after spending 7 hours treating the situation as a kidnapping that the RN might have seemed less fake? I don't know.

I can't imagine why either of the R's, if they were both involved, would have wanted 911 called, given the chance the police would immediately find the body unless they wanted to be taken straight away for questioning. Unless, as InstantProof offered, they really thought they had her hidden well enough and miscalculated how BPD would handle kidnappings. Occam's razor!

Again I don't see how she was well-hidden, in the WC. They could refuse to answer questions, which would make taking them "downtown" unnecessary.

But, maybe they thought the window situation in the train room would have looked enough like the SFF had made a last minute exit from the basement upon hearing the R's up and screaming around the house before they had enough time to take their dead child out with them??? But then, the SFF would have also had to be very quick in order to also take enough time to stash her in the deepest room of the house, turning the block latch as they left. Not Occam's Razor!

I don't think the SFF was meant for police. I don't see how they could expect the police to buy the idea that a SFF did this.

Also, once the body is handed over to the police/coroner - which is a given once the 911 call is made - then certain autopsy findings can't be evaded -such as TOD. Even an approx. TOD, with an hour or two margin of error either side has the SFF hanging around the basement for hours after the murder. Why would they do that?

And, as you mention, why would they bother to stash her? And of course why would they turn around, after climbing out the window, to replace the grate, and how would they reattach the spider web?

IMO there is no way that the note was meant to suggest the perps were in the house until moments before the police arrived. It just doesn't work.

As an RDI scenario with a kidnapping plan, they had to wait on the 911 call being made until the ransom drop, (taking the body out of the house), and if they then were going to "pick up" JB, have police along as witnesses for that - when she would be found dead, garroted, for one of the reasons outlined in the note.

Agreed.

What is the most logical answer for Patsy making the 911 call, when the most logical outcome to that is that the police would find the body eventually in the house, which suggested the R's were trying to hide it, even if there was a RN, which then obviously would have been considered truly bogus, and should have led to an immediate arrest of them?

The Occam's Razor answer is: She believed the RN to indicate her daughter had been kidnapped (taken out of the house), was safe with the kidnappers (it says so in the very first few sentences) and after quickly confirming this for herself by checking to find her bed empty, she immediately panicked, screamed for her husband's help, left him to check on their other child, and ran for the most obvious source of help before reading far enough into the long note to take heed of the warnings.

It certainly explains a lot that otherwise does not make sense.

Or, she was involved and short-circuited the plan, putting herself intentionally, in a position of innocence and left JR to become the most reasonable culprit. In order to succeed at doing that, she had to play the innocence card all the way through never once acting as if she would turn on JR, so he wouldn't give her up either. If they were in on it together, as long as they both stayed in it while events progressed as they did, they might be OK. But if, at any point that day, they faced arrest, she would have gone along until she had an opportunity to "convince" BPD she would never have called them unless she was innocent. Then she just had to say she called because she suspected her husband and had to be in a position of protection (arrested and sequestered away from JR) before she could disclose that to police.

Hmm. Well, it's interesting, and possible, but I have my doubts. Basically she's handing JR his head, but why wouldn't he take her down with him? Does she really want to be sitting in front of a jury with JR claiming they were in on it together and her claiming it was all JR? I tend to think "in for a penny, in for a pound". If she was in on it, then they both try to mitigate the risks, as much as possible.

However, once JR "found" the body instead, he as much as proved they weren't trying to hide it, especially he wasn't the one trying to hide it, so Patsy no longer had the opportunity to give him up, since from nearly that moment they were covered continuously by the attitude that they were "victims" and not perpetrators. Soon after came the doctors and lawyers, and the rest is history.

Have to hand it to JR, though. He did ask if his stiff bodied, blue-lipped child was dead as Arndt felt for a pulse. And he did say it had to be an "inside job". And he did hand over the note pads that the RN was written on declaring which was Patsy's and which was his. Maybe JR was thinking the same way as Patsy?? That if arrested, he would point directly at Patsy?

Respectfully, you are placing too much emphasis on JR finding the body. It doesn't look good that he finds a body in his own house, where only he, his wife, and their son were at the TOD and an obviously fake RN. This looks very bad. It just may look a wee bit less bad than if the police had found the body. It's a good explanation for why JR decided to find the body, but, imo, it doesn't actually make him look innocent.

Given that his plan was destroyed, he had little to loose finding the body. At least it made it look like he wasn't hoping and praying no one would find the body. IMO, it does not make him look innocent.

But, if they had been arrested that day, Patsy would have been more likely to be home free, could have been America's heroine and there to protect Burke. JR would have had to take the fall alone. If he would have tried to bring Patsy in, she had the trump card because she made the call, and why would she do that, unless she was innocent and had nothing to do with her daughter's death?

All above :moo:

Yes, because why would she call 911 on herself? Why would the plan be to allow police (or anyone else) to find the body? Once the body is found, there goes the kidnap. At that point (sorry for the repetition) we have a dead body, a fake RN, no visible means of forcible entry, and 3 credible suspects. How are police supposed to look at this and say "Aha, it's a kidnapping that morphed into a sex murder" ?

 

[InstantProof]

Stellar. If I've seen this reasoning or heard this before, somehow it flew right by. No wonder JR was so fidgety after showing back up around noon.

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But does this mean that even if French would have looked in that room instead of bypassing it, it still would have been thought they were trying to hide the body? I would think so?? Would police have thought the RN was even more bogus at that point, and arrested the R's right then and there??

I can't imagine why either of the R's, if they were both involved, would have wanted 911 called, given the chance the police would immediately find the body unless they wanted to be taken straight away for questioning. Unless, as InstantProof offered, they really thought they had her hidden well enough and miscalculated how BPD would handle kidnappings. Occam's razor!

But, maybe they thought the window situation in the train room would have looked enough like the SFF had made a last minute exit from the basement upon hearing the R's up and screaming around the house before they had enough time to take their dead child out with them??? But then, the SFF would have also had to be very quick in order to also take enough time to stash her in the deepest room of the house, turning the block latch as they left. Not Occam's Razor!

As an RDI scenario with a kidnapping plan, they had to wait on the 911 call being made until the ransom drop, (taking the body out of the house), and if they then were going to "pick up" JB, have police along as witnesses for that - when she would be found dead, garroted, for one of the reasons outlined in the note.

What is the most logical answer for Patsy making the 911 call, when the most logical outcome to that is that the police would find the body eventually in the house, which suggested the R's were trying to hide it, even if there was a RN, which then obviously would have been considered truly bogus, and should have led to an immediate arrest of them?

The Occam's Razor answer is: She believed the RN to indicate her daughter had been kidnapped (taken out of the house), was safe with the kidnappers (it says so in the very first few sentences) and after quickly confirming this for herself by checking to find her bed empty, she immediately panicked, screamed for her husband's help, left him to check on their other child, and ran for the most obvious source of help before reading far enough into the long note to take heed of the warnings.

Or, she was involved and short-circuited the plan, putting herself intentionally, in a position of innocence and left JR to become the most reasonable culprit. In order to succeed at doing that, she had to play the innocence card all the way through never once acting as if she would turn on JR, so he wouldn't give her up either. If they were in on it together, as long as they both stayed in it while events progressed as they did, they might be OK. But if, at any point that day, they faced arrest, she would have gone along until she had an opportunity to "convince" BPD she would never have called them unless she was innocent. Then she just had to say she called because she suspected her husband and had to be in a position of protection (arrested and sequestered away from JR) before she could disclose that to police.

However, once JR "found" the body instead, he as much as proved they weren't trying to hide it, especially he wasn't the one trying to hide it, so Patsy no longer had the opportunity to give him up, since from nearly that moment they were covered continuously by the attitude that they were "victims" and not perpetrators. Soon after came the doctors and lawyers, and the rest is history.

Have to hand it to JR, though. He did ask if his stiff bodied, blue-lipped child was dead as Arndt felt for a pulse. And he did say it had to be an "inside job". And he did hand over the note pads that the RN was written on declaring which was Patsy's and which was his. Maybe JR was thinking the same way as Patsy?? That if arrested, he would point directly at Patsy?

But, if they had been arrested that day, Patsy would have been more likely to be home free, could have been America's heroine and there to protect Burke. JR would have had to take the fall alone. If he would have tried to bring Patsy in, she had the trump card because she made the call, and why would she do that, unless she was innocent and had nothing to do with her daughter's death?

All above :moo:

It's too bad the police never told Patsy "John confessed, we know you had little to do with this..." and see how she reacted.

 

[InstantProof]

I can see how they might miscalculate how the kidnap would be handled by police, since they wouldn't be familiar with police procedures. Still, I think they'd have to be able to anticipate some things, including things that didn't happen but probably should have - dogs.

So, I don't see how they could be confident that the had her well hidden. Assuming the body was actually in the WC the whole time, all that was required was turning a small block of wood and turning on a light.

I've read speculation that she was moved/ staged in the time JR went off on his own, so maybe they had a better spot in the beginning and then JR moved her to the one open area that was overlooked from the start. Poorly hidden somehow looks less guilty than well hidden. Finding her somehow looks less guilty than LE finding her. The original plan was not going to work and he was undoing it.

 

[InstantProof]

Respectfully, you are placing too much emphasis on JR finding the body. It doesn't look good that he finds a body in his own house, where only he, his wife, and their son were at the TOD and an obviously fake RN. This looks very bad. It just may look a wee bit less bad than if the police had found the body. It's a good explanation for why JR decided to find the body, but, imo, it doesn't actually make him look innocent.

Given that his plan was destroyed, he had little to loose finding the body. At least it made it look like he wasn't hoping and praying no one would find the body. IMO, it does not make him look innocent.

It doesn't make him look innocent at all, but to the untrained eye (they had a lot of friends over) he looks like a victim, finding his dead, bound daughter in his own home.

 

[Chrishope]

I've read speculation that she was moved/ staged in the time JR went off on his own, so maybe they had a better spot in the beginning and then JR moved her to the one open area that was overlooked from the start. Poorly hidden somehow looks less guilty than well hidden. Finding her somehow looks less guilty than LE finding her. The original plan was not going to work and he was undoing it.

Very possible.

 

[Nom de plume]

Stellar. If I've seen this reasoning or heard this before, somehow it flew right by. No wonder JR was so fidgety after showing back up around noon.

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But does this mean that even if French would have looked in that room instead of bypassing it, it still would have been thought they were trying to hide the body? I would think so?? Would police have thought the RN was even more bogus at that point, and arrested the R's right then and there??

I can't imagine why either of the R's, if they were both involved, would have wanted 911 called, given the chance the police would immediately find the body unless they wanted to be taken straight away for questioning. Unless, as InstantProof offered, they really thought they had her hidden well enough and miscalculated how BPD would handle kidnappings. Occam's razor!

But, maybe they thought the window situation in the train room would have looked enough like the SFF had made a last minute exit from the basement upon hearing the R's up and screaming around the house before they had enough time to take their dead child out with them??? But then, the SFF would have also had to be very quick in order to also take enough time to stash her in the deepest room of the house, turning the block latch as they left. Not Occam's Razor!

As an RDI scenario with a kidnapping plan, they had to wait on the 911 call being made until the ransom drop, (taking the body out of the house), and if they then were going to "pick up" JB, have police along as witnesses for that - when she would be found dead, garroted, for one of the reasons outlined in the note.

What is the most logical answer for Patsy making the 911 call, when the most logical outcome to that is that the police would find the body eventually in the house, which suggested the R's were trying to hide it, even if there was a RN, which then obviously would have been considered truly bogus, and should have led to an immediate arrest of them?

The Occam's Razor answer is: She believed the RN to indicate her daughter had been kidnapped (taken out of the house), was safe with the kidnappers (it says so in the very first few sentences) and after quickly confirming this for herself by checking to find her bed empty, she immediately panicked, screamed for her husband's help, left him to check on their other child, and ran for the most obvious source of help before reading far enough into the long note to take heed of the warnings.

Or, she was involved and short-circuited the plan, putting herself intentionally, in a position of innocence and left JR to become the most reasonable culprit. In order to succeed at doing that, she had to play the innocence card all the way through never once acting as if she would turn on JR, so he wouldn't give her up either. If they were in on it together, as long as they both stayed in it while events progressed as they did, they might be OK. But if, at any point that day, they faced arrest, she would have gone along until she had an opportunity to "convince" BPD she would never have called them unless she was innocent. Then she just had to say she called because she suspected her husband and had to be in a position of protection (arrested and sequestered away from JR) before she could disclose that to police.

However, once JR "found" the body instead, he as much as proved they weren't trying to hide it, especially he wasn't the one trying to hide it, so Patsy no longer had the opportunity to give him up, since from nearly that moment they were covered continuously by the attitude that they were "victims" and not perpetrators. Soon after came the doctors and lawyers, and the rest is history.

Have to hand it to JR, though. He did ask if his stiff bodied, blue-lipped child was dead as Arndt felt for a pulse. And he did say it had to be an "inside job". And he did hand over the note pads that the RN was written on declaring which was Patsy's and which was his. Maybe JR was thinking the same way as Patsy?? That if arrested, he would point directly at Patsy?

But, if they had been arrested that day, Patsy would have been more likely to be home free, could have been America's heroine and there to protect Burke. JR would have had to take the fall alone. If he would have tried to bring Patsy in, she had the trump card because she made the call, and why would she do that, unless she was innocent and had nothing to do with her daughter's death?

All above :moo:

It does make sense that in JR's mind, he would look more innocent, or less guilty, by finding the body himself. It would have looked even worse than it did, if that's even possible, if anyone else had found it. I think time and decomp had something to do with the timing as well.

The Occam's Razor answer makes much more sense to me. If PR was involved, I just can't see her deciding to roll the dice and call LE. I don't have any proof, or evidence that points that way, just a gut feeling she would have done what ever she had to in order to CYA.

With regard to JR asking Arndt if she was dead, I thought that was ridiculous. To me it looked highly suspicious. Who wouldn't be able to tell that she was dead? He carried her up the stairs with her stuck out in front of him like a mannequin, stiff as a board! :facepalm:

Now him insisting it was an inside job, insisting the house was locked up tight, discouraging anyone from thinking IDI by claiming to have broken the window previously, handing over the pads and pointing out which was his and which was Patsy's is quite telling IMO. IF JR is in this alone, did the whole crime, wrote the RN, etc. it looks to me like he was setting PR up.

The silliness of a SFF, the melodramatic nature of the whole RN, "hence" and "attache", but especially the last part where it talks about "don't try to grow a brain John" and "good southern common sense" all reeks of Patsy. He might as well have signed it "Patsy" by putting "SBRC Victory!" at the end. Who would know better how to make it sound so convincing that the words were coming out of her mouth? JR didn't get to be a millionaire by being stupid. IMO if JR wanted that RN to be believable, it would have been short, sweet, and to the point, and it was anything but believable. Why?

By allowing PR to find the RN before the body was out of the house was a big risk. JR strikes me as the type to minimize risk whenever possible. Previously I had thought he believed she wouldn't call LE. Now I'm starting to think maybe he knew she WOULD call and WANTED LE to find the body in the house. Maybe he did actually tell the truth when he said he told her to call 911.

PR's jacket fibers are found in the paint tote, intwined in the garotte, on the blanket, and on the duct tape. ( IMO either PR was in that basement or her jacket was.) PR's paint brush being used. Add the silly RN, in what looks just like PR's handwriting, JR insisting it was an inside job, insisting no one could have got in the house, finding the body himself, eagerly handing over her note pad all look like somebody pointing the finger at his wife to me.

We've heard from many sources that the marriage was not as happy as they wanted us to believe. JR was not a faithful man as he proved during his first marriage. Many rumors of him being unfaithful in his second too. Patsy had been sick and unable to fulfill her wifely duties. IOW, I think (IF PR is innocent) he saw a way to get her out of the picture, while saving his own backside. IMO he was ready to trade her in on a younger model, but since she was never arrested he was stuck with her till she died. Anyone else notice the new Mrs. R is much younger, blonde, and bears a resemblance to JB?

I may be way off base with this idea, but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. :moo:

 

[otg]

I agree with and appreciate a lot of the logic in scenarios that try to pin down whether JR or PR was responsible for this thing or that, and whether one or the other of them was aware of the other's guilt and playing along or was completely unaware and spoiled the guilty party's plan. But one thing I feel is important to not lose sight of while developing these alternate theories is the three voices on the 911-call (unless you choose to not believe it). I've heard it. I have no doubt whatsoever that all three of the remaining R's were in the same room while PR spoke to the 911-operator. And from the nature of what I believe was said in the background, I think all three were aware of what had happened, and all three knew the 911-call was pretense.

 

[InstantProof]

It does make sense that in JR's mind, he would look more innocent, or less guilty, by finding the body himself. It would have looked even worse than it did, if that's even possible, if anyone else had found it. I think time and decomp had something to do with the timing as well.

The Occam's Razor answer makes much more sense to me. If PR was involved, I just can't see her deciding to roll the dice and call LE. I don't have any proof, or evidence that points that way, just a gut feeling she would have done what ever she had to in order to CYA.

With regard to JR asking Arndt if she was dead, I thought that was ridiculous. To me it looked highly suspicious. Who wouldn't be able to tell that she was dead? He carried her up the stairs with her stuck out in front of him like a mannequin, stiff as a board! :facepalm:

Now him insisting it was an inside job, insisting the house was locked up tight, discouraging anyone from thinking IDI by claiming to have broken the window previously, handing over the pads and pointing out which was his and which was Patsy's is quite telling IMO. IF JR is in this alone, did the whole crime, wrote the RN, etc. it looks to me like he was setting PR up.

The silliness of a SFF, the melodramatic nature of the whole RN, "hence" and "attache", but especially the last part where it talks about "don't try to grow a brain John" and "good southern common sense" all reeks of Patsy. He might as well have signed it "Patsy" by putting "SBRC Victory!" at the end. Who would know better how to make it sound so convincing that the words were coming out of her mouth? JR didn't get to be a millionaire by being stupid. IMO if JR wanted that RN to be believable, it would have been short, sweet, and to the point, and it was anything but believable. Why?

By allowing PR to find the RN before the body was out of the house was a big risk. JR strikes me as the type to minimize risk whenever possible. Previously I had thought he believed she wouldn't call LE. Now I'm starting to think maybe he knew she WOULD call and WANTED LE to find the body in the house. Maybe he did actually tell the truth when he said he told her to call 911.

PR's jacket fibers are found in the paint tote, intwined in the garotte, on the blanket, and on the duct tape. ( IMO either PR was in that basement or her jacket was.) PR's paint brush being used. Add the silly RN, in what looks just like PR's handwriting, JR insisting it was an inside job, insisting no one could have got in the house, finding the body himself, eagerly handing over her note pad all look like somebody pointing the finger at his wife to me.

We've heard from many sources that the marriage was not as happy as they wanted us to believe. JR was not a faithful man as he proved during his first marriage. Many rumors of him being unfaithful in his second too. Patsy had been sick and unable to fulfill her wifely duties. IOW, I think (IF PR is innocent) he saw a way to get her out of the picture, while saving his own backside. IMO he was ready to trade her in on a younger model, but since she was never arrested he was stuck with her till she died. Anyone else notice the new Mrs. R is much younger, blonde, and bears a resemblance to JB?

I may be way off base with this idea, but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. :moo:

I was thinking the RN could be an attempt to mock Patsy. I'm not sure it really sets the scene for her to look guilty, though. How could Patsy hope to get away with any of that on her own??
I think the RN writer made the decision that Patsy needed to be left out of it (the Mr. & Mrs. opening was even discarded) which I think there must be a good reason for I just can't figure out what :banghead:

 

[Chrishope]

It does make sense that in JR's mind, he would look more innocent, or less guilty, by finding the body himself. It would have looked even worse than it did, if that's even possible, if anyone else had found it. I think time and decomp had something to do with the timing as well.

Agreed.

The Occam's Razor answer makes much more sense to me. If PR was involved, I just can't see her deciding to roll the dice and call LE. I don't have any proof, or evidence that points that way, just a gut feeling she would have done what ever she had to in order to CYA.

If there were proof we'd know the answer and wouldn't need to guess. It's fine to use our everyday common sense. CYA is what people do.

With regard to JR asking Arndt if she was dead, I thought that was ridiculous. To me it looked highly suspicious. Who wouldn't be able to tell that she was dead? He carried her up the stairs with her stuck out in front of him like a mannequin, stiff as a board! :facepalm:

It's ridiculous, but maybe he thought that's what people do? People know their child is dead but they don't want to say it.

Now him insisting it was an inside job, insisting the house was locked up tight, discouraging anyone from thinking IDI by claiming to have broken the window previously, handing over the pads and pointing out which was his and which was Patsy's is quite telling IMO. IF JR is in this alone, did the whole crime, wrote the RN, etc. it looks to me like he was setting PR up.

Maybe. I don't think it makes much difference which pad was his and which was PRs. Both were readily accessible. It's not as if the author had to use his, or her, own pad. I'm not sure he was actually setting her up to take the fall so much as he was setting up the cross-fingerpointing defense.

The silliness of a SFF, the melodramatic nature of the whole RN, "hence" and "attache", but especially the last part where it talks about "don't try to grow a brain John" and "good southern common sense" all reeks of Patsy. He might as well have signed it "Patsy" by putting "SBRC Victory!" at the end. Who would know better how to make it sound so convincing that the words were coming out of her mouth? JR didn't get to be a millionaire by being stupid. IMO if JR wanted that RN to be believable, it would have been short, sweet, and to the point, and it was anything but believable. Why?

IF the plan was to allow the body to be found then the RN could have been short and sweet. There's no need for "tomorrow" there's no neefor "if we see you get the money early we might call you early (paraphrasing)" there is no need for repeated threats. In fact it's kind of hard to see why there would be a RN at all, since the body negates the kidnap staging, but if they wanted it to be a "kidnapping gone wrong" a short sweet note is all that's needed, and is more believable. The length and detail is needed to carry out JR's plan, imo.

By allowing PR to find the RN before the body was out of the house was a big risk. JR strikes me as the type to minimize risk whenever possible.

He didn't have to let her be the one to find the note, but he'd still have to read the note to her, or let her read it. The note gives him the reason to get her and BR out of the house (staying with friends for safety) while he takes care of the body. W/o the note how is he going to get the body out? PR has to believe JB has been kidnapped, otherwise how to explain her absence?

Previously I had thought he believed she wouldn't call LE. Now I'm starting to think maybe he knew she WOULD call and WANTED LE to find the body in the house. Maybe he did actually tell the truth when he said he told her to call 911.

You mean you think he was setting her up?

PR's jacket fibers are found in the paint tote, intwined in the garotte, on the blanket, and on the duct tape. ( IMO either PR was in that basement or her jacket was.)

Respectfully, this is a mistake. The fiber being "entwined" simply means it was on the cord as the knot was made. It could have got there by primary transfer, from PR. It could also have got there from secondary transfer. It's likely JB had some of PRs fibers on her from earlier contact, given that PR wore the red jacket to the party.

http://dofs.gbi.georgia.gov/trace-evidence

"Remember that fiber matches between two individuals who share the same environment (e.g. live together or drive the same car) are essentially meaningless."


Meaningless because we can't say if it was primary or secondary transfer.

PR's paint brush being used. Add the silly RN, in what looks just like PR's handwriting, JR insisting it was an inside job, insisting no one could have got in the house, finding the body himself, eagerly handing over her note pad all look like somebody pointing the finger at his wife to me.

Or the cross fingerpointing defense again. I think Doc does a good job on his blog of casting doubt on the notion that the handwriting looks like PR's.

We've heard from many sources that the marriage was not as happy as they wanted us to believe. JR was not a faithful man as he proved during his first marriage. Many rumors of him being unfaithful in his second too. Patsy had been sick and unable to fulfill her wifely duties. IOW, I think (IF PR is innocent) he saw a way to get her out of the picture, while saving his own backside. IMO he was ready to trade her in on a younger model, but since she was never arrested he was stuck with her till she died. Anyone else notice the new Mrs. R is much younger, blonde, and bears a resemblance to JB?

A bit creepy isn't it.

I may be way off base with this idea, but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. :moo:

I think his focus was on staying out of prison. I'm not sure he'd be thinking about opportunities for a new wife right then.

 

[Nom de plume]

If there were proof we'd know the answer and wouldn't need to guess. It's fine to use our everyday common sense. CYA is what people do.



It's ridiculous, but maybe he thought that's what people do? People know their child is dead but they don't want to say it.

Yes, I think he thought it sounded good to ask because that's what he thinks an innocent father would do.

Maybe. I don't think it makes much difference which pad was his and which was PRs. Both were readily accessible. It's not as if the author had to use his, or her, own pad. I'm not sure he was actually setting her up to take the fall so much as he was setting up the cross-fingerpointing defense.

True, it doesn't matter which is which. I just found it odd that he pointed out which was his & which was hers.

IF the plan was to allow the body to be found then the RN could have been short and sweet. There's no need for "tomorrow" there's no neefor "if we see you get the money early we might call you early (paraphrasing)" there is no need for repeated threats. In fact it's kind of hard to see why there would be a RN at all, since the body negates the kidnap staging, but if they wanted it to be a "kidnapping gone wrong" a short sweet note is all that's needed, and is more believable. The length and detail is needed to carry out JR's plan, imo.

I still think he might have wanted to dump JB elsewhere. Just looking for an alernative that might make sense.

He didn't have to let her be the one to find the note, but he'd still have to read the note to her, or let her read it. The note gives him the reason to get her and BR out of the house (staying with friends for safety) while he takes care of the body. W/o the note how is he going to get the body out? PR has to believe JB has been kidnapped, otherwise how to explain her absence?

I can't disagree.

You mean you think he was setting her up?

I think it's quite possible!

Respectfully, this is a mistake. The fiber being "entwined" simply means it was on the cord as the knot was made. It could have got there by primary transfer, from PR. It could also have got there from secondary transfer. It's likely JB had some of PRs fibers on her from earlier contact, given that PR wore the red jacket to the party.

http://dofs.gbi.georgia.gov/trace-evidence

"Remember that fiber matches between two individuals who share the same environment (e.g. live together or drive the same car) are essentially meaningless."


Meaningless because we can't say if it was primary or secondary transfer.

I agree that we can't account for primary or secondary transfer. I just think it's really weird that her jacket fibers were found in so many different places. One or two, ok, but four? I could see in the garotte, having come from JB's hair. I could even see maybe in the paint tote. But the blanket is suspicious IMO, and I can't find any legitimate form of secondary transfer to the tape. JR's were only found one place, which was the worst place to be found IMO.

Or the cross fingerpointing defense again. I think Doc does a good job on his blog of casting doubt on the notion that the handwriting looks like PR's.

I do think it looks like hers, but just because it looks like hers, it doesn't mean it is hers.

A bit creepy isn't it.

A LOT creepy!

I think his focus was on staying out of prison. I'm not sure he'd be thinking about opportunities for a new wife right then.

I'm sure a new wife wasn't on his mind that moment, but I'd bet he thought about it before that night!

 

[Nom de plume]

I agree with and appreciate a lot of the logic in scenarios that try to pin down whether JR or PR was responsible for this thing or that, and whether one or the other of them was aware of the other's guilt and playing along or was completely unaware and spoiled the guilty party's plan. But one thing I feel is important to not lose sight of while developing these alternate theories is the three voices on the 911-call (unless you choose to not believe it). I've heard it. I have no doubt whatsoever that all three of the remaining R's were in the same room while PR spoke to the 911-operator. And from the nature of what I believe was said in the background, I think all three were aware of what had happened, and all three knew the 911-call was pretense.

Yes, all three were heard on the end of the call. Were all three present for the entire call? IIRC, BR said, "what did you find?" and JR said, "we're not speaking (talking?) to you".

IMO, BR's statement, or rather question, implies to me that he didn't know what was going on. I guess JR's response could be taken two ways. One way would be like "Not now Burke! The grown ups are talking." I suppose if you're inclinded to BDI, it could be interpreted it as "After what you've done we're not even speaking to you!"

 

[InstantProof]

Seems logical to me that if Burke woke up to commotion, his mother upset and on the phone holding a letter, he'd ask what they found and under stress John would snap at Burke.

 

[otg]

Yes, all three were heard on the end of the call. Were all three present for the entire call? IIRC, BR said, "what did you find?" and JR said, "we're not speaking (talking?) to you".

IMO, BR's statement, or rather question, implies to me that he didn't know what was going on. I guess JR's response could be taken two ways. One way would be like "Not now Burke! The grown ups are talking." I suppose if you're inclinded to BDI, it could be interpreted it as "After what you've done we're not even speaking to you!"

Unfortunately, I agree with you that it’s a matter of interpretation, and very possibly that interpretation may be influenced by our predispositions.

That being said, as you point out, the extra voices are heard at the end of the call (actually though, after the call in the minds of those present). According to both PR and JR, they were both there but BR was not. We know though that that was a lie. If BR had walked in during the call, it seems to me that that is when he would have spoken up to ask what was going on, or that JR would have said something to him telling him to be quiet because they were on the phone. Instead, we have all three of them thinking the phone call was over and that it was then safe to talk. BR asks his question because he didn’t know anything about a ransom note that had been found, and JR doesn’t want to be bothered by him having to answer his questions. He just tells him to shut the heck up, while his mother is wailing for divine assistance.

Add to this the fact that the ruse was that JonBenet had been kidnapped by an intruder while they slept. Why would any parent (whose child had been taken from them) not want the only other person who slept on the same floor to be questioned by the police? How quickly after the phone call was made did they have to get BR into bed pretending to be asleep before the first officer arrived? And why?

 

[Chrishope]

I agree with and appreciate a lot of the logic in scenarios that try to pin down whether JR or PR was responsible for this thing or that, and whether one or the other of them was aware of the other's guilt and playing along or was completely unaware and spoiled the guilty party's plan. But one thing I feel is important to not lose sight of while developing these alternate theories is the three voices on the 911-call (unless you choose to not believe it). I've heard it. I have no doubt whatsoever that all three of the remaining R's were in the same room while PR spoke to the 911-operator. And from the nature of what I believe was said in the background, I think all three were aware of what had happened, and all three knew the 911-call was pretense.

I can appreciate what you are saying here.

I always have trouble knowing what to make of this BR on the tape thing.

First, the link at FFJ (which is actually a link from A Candyrose) doesn't have BR or JR on it at the end of the call. Yet a lot of credible people, such as yourself, have claimed to have heard it. I have no reason to think you'd lie about it, so I have to think there is something to it.


http://www.acandyrose.com/patsy911-FFJ.mp3


Does anyone have a link to the tape where one can actually here JR and BR? From a credible source. It's possible for people to modify digital recordings on their computer so it's difficult to trust what one hears on YouTube.

Additionally ST mentions the enhanced tape and I see no reason he'd lie either. So again, I must think there is something to it.

And yet, where can I hear it? From a source I can trust?

Another problem I have is that Tricia commissioned a study of the tape, and it produced nothing. The problem apparently was that her copy was a copy, of a copy etc. While I can appreciate how info is lost on successive copies, I've always found it odd that PR's "Help me Jesus" seems to survive multiple copying whereas the disputed portion - BR's comments- disappears. Granted, PR is standing closer to the phone, and maybe that accounts for it? Audio engineering is well beyond me.


Aerospace stands behind the claim that BR is heard on the tape. No other organization, including the FBI is able to hear BR on the tape.


My biggest problem with what you've said is the interpretation that all 3 were in on the hoax. Even if BR got up and can be heard at the tail of the 911 tape, it doesn't mean BDI, nor even that BR was in on any staging, save going back to bed and pretending to be asleep.

The fact that they pack BR off to a friend's house w/o much concern with what he'd say suggests to me he doesn't know anything that would point a finger of guilt at anyone. BR was in fact the only R actually questioned that day.


I can also see no reason to assume PR is in on the hoax, except to the extent she cooperates in the lie about BR being asleep the whole time. I don't see why this implies her knowledge of the killing/staging, nor why it must imply BR's involvement other than, as mentioned, going back to bed and pretending to be asleep while police arrived.

 

[Chrishope]

Yes, I think he thought it sounded good to ask because that's what he thinks an innocent father would do.




True, it doesn't matter which is which. I just found it odd that he pointed out which was his & which was hers.



I still think he might have wanted to dump JB elsewhere. Just looking for an alernative that might make sense.



I can't disagree.



I think it's quite possible!



I agree that we can't account for primary or secondary transfer. I just think it's really weird that her jacket fibers were found in so many different places. One or two, ok, but four? I could see in the garotte, having come from JB's hair. I could even see maybe in the paint tote. But the blanket is suspicious IMO, and I can't find any legitimate form of secondary transfer to the tape. JR's were only found one place, which was the worst place to be found IMO.



I do think it looks like hers, but just because it looks like hers, it doesn't mean it is hers.



A LOT creepy!




I'm sure a new wife wasn't on his mind that moment, but I'd bet he thought about it before that night!

Is 4 an exceptionally large number? Weren't all 4 places those places JR would have been if he'd been the sole perpetrator?

The garrotte was placed around the neck of JB, so it looks like we agree 2ndry transfer is a real possibility there. JR would have handled the garrotte.

The tote would have been handled by JR, perhaps after touching the body.

The blanket was wrapped around the body, so that seems unsuspicious to me.

The tape was on the body, then removed, so again, if JB had PR's fibers on her, it wouldn't be hard to transfer them. If my recall is correct, JR takes the tape off and lets it fall to the floor where it is retrieved by FW. The fibers could have come from the floor?

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not saying secondary transfer is more likely than primary. Nor am I saying primary is more likely. I'm saying there is simply no way to tell how they got there. The Doc theory of the case doesn't depend on secondary transfer being true. (Though I suppose it does depend on primary being false. If someone can prove the fibers could only be in those places from primary transfer, I'm happy to give up on the Doc theory)

The best thing to do with the fiber evidence is to ignore it, as it's inconclusive. However, for the people who can't let go of their primary transfer preference, the unsourced tan fibers must also then be accounted for. It's one thing to say the fibers are inconclusive and therefore were not going to say how any fibers, of any color, got where they are. It's another thing to insist that the red fibers (or black) couldn't be there except from primary transfer, then just ignore the unsourced tan fibers.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, all three were heard on the end of the call. Were all three present for the entire call? IIRC, BR said, "what did you find?" and JR said, "we're not speaking (talking?) to you".

IMO, BR's statement, or rather question, implies to me that he didn't know what was going on. I guess JR's response could be taken two ways. One way would be like "Not now Burke! The grown ups are talking." I suppose if you're inclinded to BDI, it could be interpreted it as "After what you've done we're not even speaking to you!"

Nom de plume,
JR's response might signal we are not talking to you, because we are talking to LE.

BR's statement is concise and explicit, it definitely does not suggest he does not know what is going, otherwise why ask what did you find! Not what is happening or going on.

JR might even be playing games, since he might not want Patsy to know the full story, since that might implicate JR?

All three were recorded in such a small piece of time, with continuity between question and answer that its evident all three knew what was to be staged, but not neccessarily everything that had gone before.

.

 

[UKGuy]

Is 4 an exceptionally large number? Weren't all 4 places those places JR would have been if he'd been the sole perpetrator?

The garrotte was placed around the neck of JB, so it looks like we agree 2ndry transfer is a real possibility there. JR would have handled the garrotte.

The tote would have been handled by JR, perhaps after touching the body.

The blanket was wrapped around the body, so that seems unsuspicious to me.

The tape was on the body, then removed, so again, if JB had PR's fibers on her, it wouldn't be hard to transfer them. If my recall is correct, JR takes the tape off and lets it fall to the floor where it is retrieved by FW. The fibers could have come from the floor?

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not saying secondary transfer is more likely than primary. Nor am I saying primary is more likely. I'm saying there is simply no way to tell how they got there. The Doc theory of the case doesn't depend on secondary transfer being true. (Though I suppose it does depend on primary being false. If someone can prove the fibers could only be in those places from primary transfer, I'm happy to give up on the Doc theory)

The best thing to do with the fiber evidence is to ignore it, as it's inconclusive. However, for the people who can't let go of their primary transfer preference, the unsourced tan fibers must also then be accounted for. It's one thing to say the fibers are inconclusive and therefore were not going to say how any fibers, of any color, got where they are. It's another thing to insist that the red fibers (or black) couldn't be there except from primary transfer, then just ignore the unsourced tan fibers.

Chrishope,
Why bother exercising your brain and employing binary logic to arrive at a conclusion which advocates ignorance, what?

This seems to be a recurring motif of your interpretation of the forensic evidence. An either/or approach, you assert the abduction staging is inconsistent on this basis, you assert the same with regard to the fibres.

I think I might have to keep reminding you on this point, but the R's when they formulated their staged crime-scene might not have had your strict logic in mind. They posssibly had a more immediate and less determinsistic goal in mind, e.g. to avoid arrest.

Summarising, the fibers might be present from both primary and secondary sources, and not exclusively from one source. That JonBenet is to be found in the wine-cellar is only inconsistent with a kidnapping when you can establish that this was the only motive behind the staging. Whereas evidence removal from the primary crime-scene and offering a rationale for JonBenet being moved at all, suggests another motive for the abduction scenario.

That is the staging might be what it everyone thought it was, i.e. a red herring!


.

 

[UKGuy]

I've read speculation that she was moved/ staged in the time JR went off on his own, so maybe they had a better spot in the beginning and then JR moved her to the one open area that was overlooked from the start. Poorly hidden somehow looks less guilty than well hidden. Finding her somehow looks less guilty than LE finding her. The original plan was not going to work and he was undoing it.

InstantProof,
JR could have moved JonBenet. There are compelling reasons to think he did not. One is that he moved JonBenet to a location where he found her later that day? So the rationale behind that is?

Really the only reason for moving JonBenet is much the same reason for claiming that she had been abducted, to mess up the forensic evidence.

There is a simple test for this.


.

 

[BOESP]

I can see how they might miscalculate how the kidnap would be handled by police, since they wouldn't be familiar with police procedures. Still, I think they'd have to be able to anticipate some things, including things that didn't happen but probably should have - dogs.

So, I don't see how they could be confident that the had her well hidden. Assuming the body was actually in the WC the whole time, all that was required was turning a small block of wood and turning on a light.

Just a respectful reminder that "turning on a light" was more difficult than your statement suggests. Fleet White, iirc, stated he tried to turn on the light when he first went to the wine cellar and felt around in the dark trying to find the switch. He couldn't find it. The light switch was down low and set back on the wall in an awkward place that was totally dark. He stated he did not see the white blanket on that first trip and was somewhat at a loss when he returned with John Ramsey since John exclaimed that he saw the blanket and knew it was JonBenet before he (John) turned on the light.

 

[BOESP]

It's too bad the police never told Patsy "John confessed, we know you had little to do with this..." and see how she reacted.

They probably would have if the DA's office had allowed a normal investigation to progress instead of telling the officers to handle the Ramseys like victims and not suspects. Even Lou Smit said he would have taken them to the police station for questioning had he been on the case on Day One. Then we have the Ramsey lawyer group who stated (my paraphrasing) that the Ramseys were in no shape to be questioned on that day after JonBenet's body was found but they would be willing to be questioned after they'd had time to grieve and blah, blah, blah.