George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin General discussion #5

[cityslick]

What about Trayvon's right to defend himself? If you see someone following you and you run and they're still there and you see a weapon you have reason to fear your life. Fight or flight. He tried flight (we know this because Zimmerman said Trayvon ran on the 911 tape) so fighting would be the next step. Are you implying Trayvon should have let Zimmerman just shoot him?

You can't shoot someone just because they got the best of you, if that's the case a lot more people would be dead. You don't bring a gun to a fist fight. Especially with a child. Secondly if Zimmerman wasn't looking for trouble why was his safety not on? He's going to Target right?? Was he planning on shooting someone in the supermarket?

But there isn't any evidence that this is what happened. Where is the evidence that TM saw or knew that GZ had a gun? Also, TM ran while GZ was still in the car. GZ didn't present a threat to TM at that point in time, he was just sitting in his car.

 

[m00c0w]

but why isn''t his story being discounted because he has changed it a lot and ppl still believe tm was straddling him, and other witnesses are boing discredited for the same thing?? - and yesterday the spanish speaking witness ran outside w/ in like 10 sec of the gun shot and she saw gz on top of tm, how could he switch t up so fast

Ten seconds is a long time.

 

[TexMex]

What about Trayvon's right to defend himself? If you see someone following you and you run and they're still there and you see a weapon you have reason to fear your life. Fight or flight. He tried flight (we know this because Zimmerman said Trayvon ran on the 911 tape) so fighting would be the next step. Are you implying Trayvon should have let Zimmerman just shoot him?

You can't shoot someone just because they got the best of you, if that's the case a lot more people would be dead. You don't bring a gun to a fist fight. Especially with a child. Secondly if Zimmerman wasn't looking for trouble why was his safety not on? He's going to Target right?? Was he planning on shooting someone in the supermarket?

One reason people obtain carry permits is to prevent things like this:

Despite attempts to grab her mom and run, Hupp’s mother wouldn’t leave her dad behind.

In what she called a “stupid decision,” Hupp said she realized she’d obeyed Texas law and left her gun in her car. At the time, people were not permitted to carry a weapon into public places. “It still makes me angry when I think about it. You can’t go up against a guy with a gun with a salt shaker or a butter knife.”

Regardless of whether Hupp could have taken down the shooter if she had her gun, Hupp said all she wants is the opportunity to change the odds. “Megyn, you’re a mom and […] I’m a mom, and I just can’t imagine being back in that position, but instead of having my parents with me, having my kids with me and not have any way to protect them.”



Read more: http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/02/1...as-gun-law-left-her-defenseless#ixzz2XXWeaVDs

 

[Marah]

Interesting Harmony. I have never heard anyone say that.
Going to get some earbuds out and really give it a listen, Thanks!

Tell us what you hear.

 

[polleypockets]

But the EMT confirmed that's what his head looked like when she treated him. So it makes zero difference.

um, i wasn't arguing, i was just answering a question when it was taken - fyi

 

[iluvmua]

but why isn''t his story being discounted because he has changed it a lot and ppl still believe tm was straddling him, and other witnesses are boing discredited for the same thing?? - and yesterday the spanish speaking witness ran outside w/ in like 10 sec of the gun shot and she saw gz on top of tm, how could he switch t up so fast

Because every single thing so far backs up his story.

IMO

 

[ncgramma]

Do you have the source of the tweet? It would be interesting to know who reported this and what other news peeps say later on today.

Oh gosh, that part didn't copy. Shows how tweet challenged I am. I'll try to find it again. It was from an attorney observing the trial, not a news person.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Why do you feel he saw a weapon?


If he earnestly tried flight, why was he still in the area over two minutes later? That was enough time for him to get home twice by then, much less out of the area altogether.


You can if there exists the peril of death or fear of great bodily harm.


Or perhaps you don't bring fists to a gun fight?


Appeal to emotion. This "child" was capable of killing someone just the same as any adult.


False premise. The weapon in question does not have a manual safety to be engaged.

Most logical.

 

[Isabelle]

Yesterday, two witnesses testified that Zimmerman was the one on top. It's a fluster cluck. :scared:

I still want to know how TM wound up on his stomach with his hands under his chest and legs extended. If GZ had to scramble out from under TM, I would not think his arms would have stayed in the against the chest position, since loss of consciousness is also accompanied by loss of muscle tone/contraction, unless a seizure is responsible for the loss of consciousness.

 

[PaperDoll]

So he should be punished regardless?

Would you like to be George Zimmerman right now and have people want you and your family dead because of what You (George) thought was right?

I certainly would not want to be George right now and and to be truthful, It could be any one of us in that chair right now.

JMO

I would not be in GZ chair at all because I would not have done what he did and you can't say it could be anyone of us. Not everyone is like GZ. Would you like to be in TM's position?

 

[m00c0w]

Glocks don't have a safety that you can turn on/off.

IMO

Zimmerman was carrying a Kel-Tec PF9. It is the same in that there is no manual safety, however.

I just figured I would correct you <modsnip>.

 

[Lovelymountains]

He must be pretty clumsy to fall all over the place and run into objects with such force to cause this trauma, but pretty spry to still be able to catch up to Martin even after falling all over the place enough to sustain injuries all over his head, huh?

Yes He must be. IMO

 

[PaperDoll]

I still want to know how TM wound up on his stomach with his hands under his chest and legs extended. If GZ had to scramble out from under TM, I would not think his arms would have stayed in the against the chest position, since loss of consciousness is also accompanied by loss of muscle tone/contraction, unless a seizure is responsible for the loss of consciousness.

GZ also told police that he got on top of TM and spread out his hands, so this is a lie GZ told. TM was found just like you said, face down, hands or hand under him..

 

[polleypockets]

I have a feeling this will be a not guilty or a hung jury. It will bother me if it is because I can't get out of my head, and heart, that GZ is the one who started all this. TM would not have died had GZ not been there. Self defense or not, this all happened because of GZ putting himself in this position because some young man is standing in the rain instead of trying to get out of it. I will feel really bad for TM's family, well, I feel for them anyways. Ugh!

i have a feeling it will be manslaughter, i think from what i read, the state does have that proved imo

 

[DIBSY]

Hello everyone, posting for the first time here. Thanks for sharing such a trove of information. I'm more interested in the logical deduction in this case, so here's my two cents.

IMO, I will assume that GZ will definitely offer a version of events most advantageous to his defense, and TM is dead, so if I were a member of the jury, unless substantiated by facts, GZ's account will be disregarded to place both sides on an equal footing.

So one male is not only 40+ lbs heavier but 12 years older than the other. He was lethally armed with a loaded pistol while the younger man was unarmed. He had been watching and following the latter, in full command of his senses, packed, comfortable about his "turf" and knowing what he was doing when he targeted TM. TM was being followed, and most likely afraid as GZ's identity, intentions, hostility, armed readiness, etc. were completely unknown, and he was a guest in this neighborhood, a stranger.

Clearly one party was far more dominant and in control of the situation, ready to act against someone he already believed to be a "punk" who might get away, trained in MMA, ready to use lethal force if necessary. The other ran away from an uncertain and possibly dangerous situation, unarmed and fearful. One predator, the other prey, it makes sense.

Following a 2-minute altercation, the weaker male died of a fatal gunshot wound at the hands of the dominant male. Based on Occam's Razor, GZ being the aggressor makes the most sense. The test of the pudding is in the tasting, etc...

The Defense is asking us to suspend logic and reason for the 2 minutes to consider an opposite scenario, that despite all of the above conditions, being younger, lighter, thinner, unarmed, more fearful, less experienced in fighting, etc., TM was suddenly able to turn the tables round and potentially deliver lethal injury to GZ. This sudden ability for all of 2 minutes is only supported by GZ's account, as none of GZ's injuries would qualify as life-threatening, and no available medical documentation supports this version of great bodily harm done to GZ.

At the end of these 2 minutes, the events once again follow the earlier logical trajectory - the prey, the younger, weaker, unarmed male is stone-cold dead.

Believing GZ's account for those 2 minutes therefore takes jumping through several hoops. Again, we must remind ourselves that GZ's account is the basis for his defense, therefore should not be given carte blanche.

IMHO, Occam's razor applies, until strong, credible, admissible evidence shows otherwise.

A very heartfelt Welcome to you !!!:drumroll:
Your insight and perception is impressive, and would be no matter whose side one might take. Please continue to chime in !!!:seeya:

 

[AngelWings444]

Maybe the jury should remove emotion and not focus simply on the fact that TM was a 'teenager' and instead focus on the circumstances/evidence on what the truth really his.

Just because he was young doesn't mean he didn't have the capacity to do bodily harm/death, even without a gun.

Please don't take my words out of context. I said, I would be freaking out if I killed anyone. Also, the fact is that Trayvon was a TEEN. Killing someone, anyone, including a teenager, should have had an effect on GZ in some way..but he was cool as a cucumber. "Call my wife and tell her I shot someone".

I wasn't talking about the JURY having emotion, I was talking about GZ's lack of emotion. That is evidence and it goes to his state of mind.

All JMO!

 

[cityslick]

GZ also told police that he got on top of TM and spread out his hands, so this is a lie GZ told. TM was found just like you said, face down, hands or hand under him..

The getting on top of TM agrees with the witness yesterday and today though. He was on the bottom, the shot rang out, and he got on top.

 

[iluvmua]

I would not be in GZ chair at all because I would not have done what he did and you can't say it could be anyone of us. Not everyone is like GZ. Would you like to be in TM's position?

I would of in order to save my own life

JMO

No, I would have been smarter not to confront someone esp. since if I had no idea they had a weapon.

I would have just gone straight home.

JMO

 

[Isabelle]

yep, but at least we know that spanish speaking lady was telling the truth because, then the man got up and walked around and tm couldn't

That would make sense, if she didn't see GZ scrambling to get out from under TM, because he would have had to do so if TM were on top after he was shot.

 

[SuperTmo]

IMO there is no way a scratch from a bush would still be bleeding several hours later at the police station when he was photographed. JMOO

I also wonder with all the talk of how GZ didn't go to the ER and didn't seek the xrays, what was the status of his health insurance? Did he have any? I can tell you that we have insurance but our copays and deductibles are so high we do our best not to use it. My hubby using an airgun shot a long fence nail through his hand and refused to go to the ER. Still deals with issues in that hand due to that decision but I can understand why someone especially a "stubborn" male wouldn't seek additional help. JMOO

No way. If he thinks he was being beat to the point he was going to die, he would have gone to the ER no matter what. After all, he perceived his injuries to be putting him on the brink of death, and he had to kill this kid to survive... That's pretty serious. He would have dealt with the insurance later. Besides, there is such a thing as crime victim compensation, which handles things of this sort.