CO - Dylan Redwine - Forensics Discussion- *WARNING!* MAY INCLUDE GRAPHIC DETAILS


There's been some talk about the shoelaces being found but no shoes ... but in this article, MR is quoted as saying that a shoe was found ... ???

http://www.9news.com/news/article/343443/339/Investigators-look-for-clues-in-Redwine-case

"Along with Redwine's remains, detectives also found the boy's shirt and one of his shoes."

It's tough to sleuth without the facts!

:pullhair:
 
Question: are aerial scavengers (birds) known to transport remains? Vultures, hawks, etc? If so, how far?
 
Depends on the size of the bird and what it is eating. I have seen hawks fly off with field mice. I have also watched webcams of urban hawks bringing whole rodents back to their nests to feed their young and teach them how to eat non-regurgitated food. And of course the bird can also eat the prey at the kill site and then bring back the stomach contents to feed its young.

I've also seen crows have aerial fights over food, often resulting in it being dropped.

I think birds could certainly have transported some of Dylan's remains.
 
Question: are aerial scavengers (birds) known to transport remains? Vultures, hawks, etc? If so, how far?

There is a small section about birds as scavengers, starting on page 8 of the SAR PDF file, that I posted earlier. I will repost the link to the PDF file. I think that it is interesting that they mention limbs are often transported in one piece by a scavenger, then scattered. This might be the case regarding DR's remains. Birds could have possibly scattered smaller portions, after the initial limb was moved by a larger animal. We would have to know which bones LE already found, to know if they were all bones from an arm/hand or from different parts of the body. If the bones were from different parts of the body (found together, but do not articulate), then this might be an indicator that his body was moved from the original place of decomposition. Another part of the PDF explains how a body that is decomposing in its original place, will leave black stains in the soil, due to the acids and the oils.

(The Search for Human Remains in the SAR Environment 33 Pages PDF Format (SARTI-Mark Gleason) 3-08
www.sarti.us/sarti/files/SearchForHumanRemains.pdf

The Role of Predation on Surface Remains:

"Predation or scavenging activities by animals has a significant impact on decay rates, as
well as the recovery rates of remains. Scavengers can cause extensive destruction of soft
tissue and bone. They also may scatter or destroy remains. Unfortunately this is an
area for which little research exists. In his work on studying scavenging of child sized remains,
Morton notes (478) a variety of scavengers who used remains as a food source. This included red foxes,
turkey vultures, opossums, raccoons, crows, and striped skunks
. In our own studies we’ve also
noted predation by coyotes, domestic dogs, and turtles. This is obviously only a partial
list of scavengers who have been responsible for predation on human remains......."

".........When skeletal remains are discovered, the association of those elements in a particular
location is important. When the remains are found in proximity with those with which
they do not articulate (ex. patella near a lumbar vertebrae), one can infer that they were
moved away from the original site after decomposition of soft tissue and disarticulation.
When articulating elements are found together (hand and arm bones), they may represent
transport prior to decomposition of muscle or tissue that held them together.
One of the
last elements often moved or destroyed is the skull, as it is difficult for most small
predators to grasp on to (even with long canine teeth). Skeletal disarticulation occurs most typically
from the head downward and from the central to peripheral portions of the skeleton.
Thus the mandible will separate from the skull, and the skull from the vertebral column.
Teeth may also disarticulate from the mandible (lower jaw) or maxilla (upper jaw). It is often the
single rooted teeth (incisors and canines) that disassociate. Multi-rooted teeth typically only disassociate due to poor
rooting or damage/injury. Cervical vertebrae often follow, with the limbs tending to
remain in tact
. The process of disarticulation often exposes individual bones to damage
from predation, weathering, or other influences.

The recovery of skeletal remains is as much influenced by the process of disarticulation
as it is by remains going unnoticed in searches. We’ve observed searchers walk past
disarticulated bones, or only realize their presence after having walked upon them. Most
often the axial skeletal remains are found by the site of discovery, while skeletal elements
of the upper and lower limbs can often be found at great distances. This reflects the
ability to move limbs as a single, detachable unit."
 
There is a small section about birds as scavengers, starting on page 8 of the SAR PDF file, that I posted earlier. I will repost the link to the PDF file. I think that it is interesting that they mention limbs are often transported in one piece by a scavenger, then scattered. This might be the case regarding DR's remains. Birds could have possibly scattered smaller portions, after the initial limb was moved by a larger animal. We would have to know which bones LE already found, to know if they were all bones from an arm/hand or from different parts of the body. If the bones were from different parts of the body (found together, but do not articulate), then this might be an indicator that his body was moved from the original place of decomposition. Another part of the PDF explains how a body that is decomposing in its original place, will leave black stains in the soil, due to the acids and the oils.

(The Search for Human Remains in the SAR Environment 33 Pages PDF Format (SARTI-Mark Gleason) 3-08
www.sarti.us/sarti/files/SearchForHumanRemains.pdf

The Role of Predation on Surface Remains:

"Predation or scavenging activities by animals has a significant impact on decay rates, as
well as the recovery rates of remains. Scavengers can cause extensive destruction of soft
tissue and bone. They also may scatter or destroy remains. Unfortunately this is an
area for which little research exists. In his work on studying scavenging of child sized remains,
Morton notes (478) a variety of scavengers who used remains as a food source. This included red foxes,
turkey vultures, opossums, raccoons, crows, and striped skunks
. In our own studies we’ve also
noted predation by coyotes, domestic dogs, and turtles. This is obviously only a partial
list of scavengers who have been responsible for predation on human remains......."

".........When skeletal remains are discovered, the association of those elements in a particular
location is important. When the remains are found in proximity with those with which
they do not articulate (ex. patella near a lumbar vertebrae), one can infer that they were
moved away from the original site after decomposition of soft tissue and disarticulation.
When articulating elements are found together (hand and arm bones), they may represent
transport prior to decomposition of muscle or tissue that held them together.
One of the
last elements often moved or destroyed is the skull, as it is difficult for most small
predators to grasp on to (even with long canine teeth). Skeletal disarticulation occurs most typically
from the head downward and from the central to peripheral portions of the skeleton.
Thus the mandible will separate from the skull, and the skull from the vertebral column.
Teeth may also disarticulate from the mandible (lower jaw) or maxilla (upper jaw). It is often the
single rooted teeth (incisors and canines) that disassociate. Multi-rooted teeth typically only disassociate due to poor
rooting or damage/injury. Cervical vertebrae often follow, with the limbs tending to
remain in tact
. The process of disarticulation often exposes individual bones to damage
from predation, weathering, or other influences.

The recovery of skeletal remains is as much influenced by the process of disarticulation
as it is by remains going unnoticed in searches. We’ve observed searchers walk past
disarticulated bones, or only realize their presence after having walked upon them. Most
often the axial skeletal remains are found by the site of discovery, while skeletal elements
of the upper and lower limbs can often be found at great distances. This reflects the
ability to move limbs as a single, detachable unit."

This is FASCINATING info. Do you have a theory that would indicate where the larger elements of the body would be, given the potential for animal scattering seen here? If i'm following correctly, it would seem that the skull would likely be elsewhere, perhaps a great distance elsewhere. I have been trying to reconcile the cadaver dogs hits at the lake as early as 11/25 with a body dumped in the mountains on 11/18. Any ideas?
 
This is FASCINATING info. Do you have a theory that would indicate where the larger elements of the body would be, given the potential for animal scattering seen here? If i'm following correctly, it would seem that the skull would likely be elsewhere, perhaps a great distance elsewhere. I have been trying to reconcile the cadaver dogs hits at the lake as early as 11/25 with a body dumped in the mountains on 11/18. Any ideas?

I also think they should keep looking for the skull. I posted a quote from a study earlier in this thread that indicated that the skull is found in 98% of cases even in stage 4 disarticulated remains (as in this case), including those remains that have been scavenged by canids.

This particular location may have led to the unusual result of the skull moving sooner rather than later, because of the steep slope. The skull may be much further downhill/downstream than the rest of the remains.

Regarding the cadaver dogs... I don't know how sensitive they are. But I think the lake is a likely place for Dylan's backpack (which may also contain Dylan's hat and shoes). I wonder if the backpack (or some of the items inside it) were in contact with Dylan's body before getting tossed in the lake whether the HRD dogs might detect that.
 
I also think they should keep looking for the skull. I posted a quote from a study earlier in this thread that indicated that the skull is found in 98% of cases even in stage 4 disarticulated remains (as in this case), including those remains that have been scavenged by canids.

This particular location may have led to the unusual result of the skull moving sooner rather than later, because of the steep slope. The skull may be much further downhill/downstream than the rest of the remains.

Regarding the cadaver dogs... I don't know how sensitive they are. But I think the lake is a likely place for Dylan's backpack (which may also contain Dylan's hat and shoes). I wonder if that or some of the items were in contact with Dylan's body before getting tossed in the lake if the HRD dogs might detect that.

Had not considered the slope! If it was down the same ravine as I suspect, it drains into Vallecito Creek. The water was low at that time but washing part of a body downstream to the lake might be easier to imagine than washing most of a body. There was no rain during that first week, which would have helped wash parts down the ravine and downstream. Still trying to sort it out but I do appreciate the info. Seems like lots of posters jumped on thread since Dylan was discovered and I cannot tell you how much we longtimers appreciate the input!
 
I also think they should keep looking for the skull. I posted a quote from a study earlier in this thread that indicated that the skull is found in 98% of cases even in stage 4 disarticulated remains (as in this case), including those remains that have been scavenged by canids.

This particular location may have led to the unusual result of the skull moving sooner rather than later, because of the steep slope. The skull may be much further downhill/downstream than the rest of the remains.

Regarding the cadaver dogs... I don't know how sensitive they are. But I think the lake is a likely place for Dylan's backpack (which may also contain Dylan's hat and shoes). I wonder if the backpack (or some of the items inside it) were in contact with Dylan's body before getting tossed in the lake whether the HRD dogs might detect that.

BBM

I'm not a HRD dog expert but I would be surprised if a HRD dog could alert to a transfer scent on the backpack or clothes that were underwater after a week or months had past.

If the backpack contained body parts then that's a different story. I would think the ROV's that were used would have found the backpack if it was the source of the HRD dog alerts. Plus that would mean separate body disposable sites. MOO.
 
"The recovery of skeletal remains is as much influenced by the process of disarticulation
as it is by remains going unnoticed in searches. We’ve observed searchers walk past
disarticulated bones, or only realize their presence after having walked upon them. Most
often the axial skeletal remains are found by the site of discovery, while skeletal elements
of the upper and lower limbs can often be found at great distances. This reflects the
ability to move limbs as a single, detachable unit."

Were the remains found, found near each together?
Sourced from that PDF search manual posted earlier
 
I think people vastly overestimate the dogs and lake smells are completely unrelated. Something else probably died in there.
 
Sasquatch, thank you for sharing all of this great information! I have bookmarked the threads you suggested here at WS.

In your opinion or from what I am gathering...the turnaround may have been the original site where Dylan's body was placed. The remains may have been scattered 1.5 miles south of the turnaround? The PDF you provided above seems to go with this theory as we have been told larger bones such as a femur and clavicle were found. A finger with the nail still attached was allegedly found in coyote feces. I am now wondering if LE found a coyote den south of the turnaround. I'm also wondering if LE believes some of Dylan's remains ended up in the lake and this is why they believe they have found all they're going to find?
 
Sasquatch, thank you for sharing all of this great information! I have bookmarked the threads you suggested here at WS.

In your opinion or from what I am gathering...the turnaround may have been the original site where Dylan's body was placed. The remains may have been scattered 1.5 miles south of the turnaround? The PDF you provided above seems to go with this theory as we have been told larger bones such as a femur and clavicle were found. A finger with the nail still attached was allegedly found in coyote feces. I am now wondering if LE found a coyote den south of the turnaround. I'm also wondering if LE believes some of Dylan's remains ended up in the lake and this is why they believe they have found all they're going to find?

I believe the finger+nail was in reality a finger bone. Someone made a reference to that previously and I could not verify it. It also seems very unlikely. But if anyone has a reference, please share it.
 
Here Mark gave us a description of where the remains were found. The article is dated the day LE gave the presser. Even though Mark met with LE that day, Mark stated later he wanted to go the place where Dylan was found because he didn't know the specific location.

“All they know is that he was for a lack of better terms, mangled by wild animals. Geographically, Middle Mountain is basically directly across the street from my house,” Mark said. “So it wouldn't take long to walk out the front door and be... It was right below the road there.”

http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S3082148.shtml?cat=504
 
I also think they should keep looking for the skull. I posted a quote from a study earlier in this thread that indicated that the skull is found in 98% of cases even in stage 4 disarticulated remains (as in this case), including those remains that have been scavenged by canids.

This particular location may have led to the unusual result of the skull moving sooner rather than later, because of the steep slope. The skull may be much further downhill/downstream than the rest of the remains.

Regarding the cadaver dogs... I don't know how sensitive they are. But I think the lake is a likely place for Dylan's backpack (which may also contain Dylan's hat and shoes). I wonder if the backpack (or some of the items inside it) were in contact with Dylan's body before getting tossed in the lake whether the HRD dogs might detect that.

BBM Mitsana, in that 98% figure do you know if that was skulls from individuals of any age group, or just adults?

My concern with finding Dylan's skull is that it would not be as large as an adult's skull and therefore possibly less likely to be found intact.

Another thing just occurred to me, and this is awful, but Dylan's skull may have been damaged during the act of his murder.

:(
 
Here is the reference Mark made to finding coyote scat with the tip of the finger in it and the fingernail attached. What was printed in the article is different from what Mark says in the video.

Article -
Mark Redwine, Dylan's father, told Action 7 News that investigators told him his son's fingertip was found alongside a coyote's droppings.

Video Screenshot -
image.jpg


http://m.koat.com/news/unm-bone-exp...on/-/17421734/20817480/-/96dd2wz/-/index.html[/QUOTE]
 
Here is the reference Mark made to finding coyote scat with the tip of the finger in it with the fingernail attached. What was printed in the article is different from what Mark said in the video.

Article -
Mark Redwine, Dylan's father, told Action 7 News that investigators told him his son's fingertip was found alongside a coyote's droppings.

Video -
View attachment 35492


http://m.koat.com/news/unm-bone-exp...on/-/17421734/20817480/-/96dd2wz/-/index.html
[/QUOTE]

Wow! Thanks so much for finding that for me. (BTW, the reference in the video occurs at 1:30).

I have a hard time believing that actually happened (finding a finger tip+nail in scat and after 7 months), or am I off base and that can actually happen? Or did LE just say that to MR to judge his reaction? Or is MR just plain wrong?
 
This presentation is very graphic, you have been warned.

http://rce.csuchico.edu/sites/defau...earn-engage/MediasiteMaterials/Taphonomic.pdf

Slide 83 points out one thing the scavenging had in common and that was the emails were pulled upslope.

I wonder if there's a good sheer drop off along that road somewhere. The pictures show a slope, steep yes, but not a straight drop. A body would possibly roll down the slope, but I don't think it would get far before lodging against a tree. Does that mean he was carried down the slope and left at the bottom and then the perp climbed back up the hillside?

I'll be staring at the topo map again for a while I guess.
 
BBM Mitsana, in that 98% figure do you know if that was skulls from individuals of any age group, or just adults?

My concern with finding Dylan's skull is that it would not be as large as an adult's skull and therefore possibly less likely to be found intact.

Another thing just occurred to me, and this is awful, but Dylan's skull may have been damaged during the act of his murder.

:(

Both are good points and the book I referenced mentioned both factors as contributing to more frequent damage (child vs adult and damage from serious blows, gunshot wounds, etc). The statistics they gave were for overall; they didn't split it up any more fine than that.
 
I believe this is where Mitsana found her info -

A few people have mentioned surprise/concern that the skull wasn't found. I saw this in a google book extract (Forensic Taphonomy: The Postmortem Fate of Human Remains, section on carnivore scavenged remains)...

"Crania are found for nearly all canid-scavenged remains. They are usually undamaged except for canid punctures... [other minor damage]" (p 374)

This includes stage 4 disarticulation, the final phase (98% recovery).

Femurs are only found in about 61% of phase 4 recovered remains (from a chart on p 376).
 
This presentation is very graphic, you have been warned.

http://rce.csuchico.edu/sites/defau...earn-engage/MediasiteMaterials/Taphonomic.pdf

Slide 83 points out one thing the scavenging had in common and that was the emails were pulled upslope.

I wonder if there's a good sheer drop off along that road somewhere. The pictures show a slope, steep yes, but not a straight drop. A body would possibly roll down the slope, but I don't think it would get far before lodging against a tree. Does that mean he was carried down the slope and left at the bottom and then the perp climbed back up the hillside?

I'll be staring at the topo map again for a while I guess.

Graphic warning - From page 54 of the same PDF -

That bear was very determined. He actually drug it about 200 meters down a drainage ditch, up the other side of the drainage ditch, and left it in probably the biggest poison oak stand that I've ever seen. But it's a little blurry. Essentially, this is just intestines, and some vertebrae.
 

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