Verdict Watch Thread Saturday July 13

[Karmady]

Also heard that the judge's ruling on circumstantial evidence in the jury instruction is reversible error. Here's the part I found when I looked it up.


11:25 a.m.

West says it would be an improper argument for the state to make in closing.


Judge Nelson denies the motion.


She moves on to more of the jury instructions.


She moves on to the circumstantial evidence instruction from the defense.


The state has an objection.


Mantei says the instruction was eliminated 30 years ago, finding the instruction was confusing and incorrect.


West says he remembers when the instruction was standard. He says when a case is appropriate for it, it is clear the law allows it.


He says in voire dire, De la Rionda made a big deal about circumstantial evidence and direct evidence with the potential jurors.


He says the circumstances must be conclusive.


He says there is no other instruction as specific and appropriate to help the jury analyze the case. He says it gives them desperately needed guidance.


Mantei says every case with a bit of circumstantial evidence would get the instruction.


He says the case is not totally circumstantial and there is direct evidence the defendant shot and killed the victim.


“It is confusing and incorrect,” Mantei says.


Judge Nelson is not going to give the circumstantial evidence instruction


---------------
What is your opinion, Karmedy?


IMO

I didn't hear the argument, so take this fwiw. If Florida did "abolish" the charge in all cases because it's confusing, I think that will be a tough hill to climb on appeal. But I don't believe Mantei and I do believe West. So if West is correct and it's allowable in the proper case, if there ever was a case for the charge, it's this one. And jury instructions are very, very, very important to the integrity of the verdict, as we know from the case that was reversed based on the placement of a comma in the charge.

That said, there's is a mountain of reversible error in this case. jmo

 

[PaperDoll]

It’s a shame that Trayvon die but that tragedy should not be compounded by sending GZ to prison. I hope he’s found innocent but I too think it’s going to ended in a hung jury.

I'm sadden by the fact that TM walked to the store for Skittles/Drink and ends up dead over nothing. He wasn't doing anything wrong what so ever. I can only imagine what his parents felt when they heard the news that their young son is dead and for what reason? Wow, I can't get pass that. So now TM's parents are listening to the NE call that GZ placed and I would be thinking WTFudge????? My son looks like he's up to no good simply because he's walking in the rain???? really???? But GZ gets out of his car, IN THE RAIN, to follow him. So, why can GZ be in the rain and think that's ok, but TM can't??? sorry, I don't get it!!!!! :banghead:

 

[Harmony 2]

I would like to hear the answer too. Because I would assume that GZ fired from his hip too. But IMO the wound was rather high up on TM's body. It would seem awkward to have someone on top of you and you raise your hand all the way up to his chest to fire the bullet. I would think TM would have been shot in the side closer to the lower part of his body.

Anybody have thoughts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He is talking about it here on this video. I queued up to the spot where he says he “aimed it at him and fired one shot". Can a person aim from the hip?

http://youtu.be/CjRp-vIvTNg?t=32m52s

 

[ShadyLady]

Not sure if this came out:

Florida State Attorney Angela Corey Fires IT Director Ben Kruidbos After Testimony In George Zimmerman Trial

Kruidbos said he became concerned that lead prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda might not have turned over Kruidbos’ report to defense attorneys. Kruidbos asked White in April for legal advice and described some contents of his report such as a photo of an African-American hand holding a gun, a photo of a plant resembling marijuana, and a text message referring to a gun transaction.
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/soci...ires-it-director-ben-kruidbos-after-testimony

 

[Moonie]

I don't think he had murder in his heart,but I do think he went in with the thought that he had his gun if TM gave him any trouble and that may be why he was so quick to reach for his weapon.
I also watched his face when the very first pics of a deceased TM were shown.He looked at the picture and then looked away and (IMO) his expression was a 'so *advertiser censored***** what' and "pfft' as though TM didn't matter at all.
Between that and his comments during the SH interview,I'm convinced he has no remorse at all.
Many might say they wouldn't either,but even if killing is justified,wouldn't you feel at least a small amount of sorrow for the loss of life?
IMO

I noticed his demeanor every time they showed the picture of TM's dead body also. GZ showed no emotion, but he certainly didn't mind looking at the picture each and every time they showed it. He appeared to have kept his eyes glued to it. It really didn't seem to bother him one bit. I also noticed yesterday when MOM, during closing arguments, brought GZ forward in front of the jury GZ couldn't even look the jury in the eye. I came into this case thinking GZ was guilty. I've always had a bad feeling about him. After watching this trial I still feel that way. I think if he had shown any kind of remorse for what he did, or at least shown some discomfort over being on trial fighting for his life, I could maybe squeeze out some sympathy for him. But if he can't find it in himself to feel bad or regret what he did, then why should I feel bad for him. Just simply identifying himself could have caused a different outcome that night. I truly wish GZ would have been smarter that night and that none of this happened, but IMO he's as guilty as sin.

 

[JeannaT]

I think we're hung here.

I've watched trials where the verdict is very difficult and complicated - for example, in the Christian/Newsome murder trials, the jury had so many moving parts to reconcile. What role, EXACTLY, did the suspect in the current trial play in a huge number of crimes - theft, rape, murder, kidnapping, etc. It was complex and it took juries - even very likeminded ones - a long time to decide each piece.

This is easy. 1, 2 or 3. That they can't agree now, IMHO, means they won't.

BTW, I sense this is a very smart jury. They've chosen to work through breaks and stay late - and smart people are less likely to be forced to change their mind, in my experience, than less intelligent people who can be persuaded more easily.

I guess we'll see. At this point, it seems either Manslaughter or Hung.

iMHO

 

[Foxfire]

Ya know, I've heard reference to RK...and IIRC that was on HLN. I think it may have been VP (oh, and I hope it wasn't) who said that Trayvon's mother could be the next Rodney King?? Speaking of calm or something like that? Huh?? IMVHO, this case is nothing like the case of RK.

ETA: and I know all about riots. My father worked in Harlem back in the 60s. Now you reference the 90s. Haven't we evolved beyond that? Very sad, indeed.

RE: IMVHO, this case is nothing like the case of RK

RR0004, ironically and tragically, this case has many parallels to the RK case.
We all hope and pray that we have evolved beyond 1992.

 

[iluvmua]

If George is found not guilty which exit will he take?

Does the courthouse have alternative exits like the Orlando courthouse where casey anthony has her trial?

 

[RANCH]

Because he was using deadly force.

Imagine he shot him in the arm deliberately, and Martin lived.

Now we are at an attempted murder trial. The prosecution asks, "If you were in fear of your life, why did you take the time to aim at a non-vital part of the body that probably wouldn't have ended the threat?"

He also may have missed and wound up hitting one of the many people peering out from their porches. That's just not something you do when employing deadly force. That's why it's only allowed when in fear of life or great bodily harm.

:twocents:

Great post. If a situation allows deadly force to be used, the person defending him or herself should aim for the center of mass of the attacker to stop the threat. MOO.

 

[m00c0w]

I'm not forgetting.
I didn't say it flipped in circles. The angle could have been turned and unstable.
We disagree on both force and physics.

No, I disagree based on the evidence provided.

Evidence: He has one 1/4" laceration. This suggests a weapon being kicked back with any great amount of force would not have been responsible - otherwise it would have been a longer injury or there would have been injuries elsewhere that are consistent with the same firearm. That one injury alone does not fit with a firearm striking him in that one area via the force to also break a nose and slam his head into the ground.

Evidence: The weapon chambered another round. If the force of the recoil made it spin, flip, jump way back, twist, turn, pull, push, or move to any great degree, the weapon would not have cycled that round. That's how automatic/semi-automatic handguns work. It is the recoil's energy that chambers the next round. If the energy from the recoil is being spent elsewhere, the slide does not fully actuate, and the next bullet is not chambered. This is demonstrated in the first round the man in the second video fires. It is physically impossible for the gun to have recoiled in such an tumultuous manner and the battery still fully working as intended.

:twocents:

 

[ShadyLady]

I think we're hung here.

I've watched trials where the verdict is very difficult and complicated - for example, in the Christian/Newsome murder trials, the jury had so many moving parts to reconcile. What role, EXACTLY, did the suspect in the current trial played in a huge number of crimes - theft, rape, murder, kidnapping, etc. It was complex and it took juries - even very likeminded ones - a long time to decide each piece.

This is easy. 1, 2 or 3. That they can't agree now, IMHO, means they won't.

BTW, I sense this is a very smart jury. They've chosen to work through breaks and stay late - and smart people are less likely to be forced to change their mind, in my experience, than less intelligent people who can be persuaded more easily.

I guess we'll see. At this point, it seems either Manslaughter or Hung.

iMHO

Law vs fear vs mother love....IMO

 

[TorisMom003]

From the recorded non emergency call:

Zimmerman: Sh@t he's running.
Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman: (Clearly hear the sound of Zimmerman exiting the vehicle) Down towards the other entrance of the neighborhood.
Dispatcher: Ok. Which entrance is that that he's headed towards?
Zimmerman: The back entrance.
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yea.
Dispatcher: Ok we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Ok.

From the walk through with LE:
"......And again they asked me where he was, what direction he went in and I said I don't know and then I thought to get out and look for a street sign so I got out of my car and I started walking (gets out of car with LE). I was still on the phone with non emergency and I started walking down this way and because I didn't see a street sign here but I knew if I went straight through that that's Retreat View Circle and I could give him an address because he said just give me the address you're in front of and there's no address cause it's the back of the houses so I walked up through here and I didn't see him at all. I was walking and I was still on the phone with non emergency. I got to about, I got to about here and I had a flashlight with me, flashlight was dead though and I looked around and I didn't see anybody and I told non emergency you know what, he's gone, he's not even here. So I still thought I could use their address so I walked all the way through and I actually walked all the way to the street and I was gonna give them this address and they said well if he's not there do you still want a police officer and I said yes and they said you still want a police officer and I said yes and they said are you following him, oh I'm sorry, back there they said are you following him and I said yes because I was, you know, in the area, and he said we don't need you to do that and I said ok. So that's when I walked straight through here to get the address so that I could meet the police officer........."


It should be noted that the street Zimmerman was walking to "to get an address" is where the back gate is. It should also be noted that Zimmerman did not get out of the truck at a time when the dispatcher asked him for an address, Zimmerman got out of the truck when Trayvon ran.

MOO

 

[PaperDoll]

Yes...And in my very strong opinion.GZ already had his gun out.

IMO, GZ tried to play cop and hold TM at gunpoint and maybe even grabbed his arm to try to force TM to wait for LE and that's what led to all of TM's (IMO) repeated calls for help.

Imo, I think when no one came to help, in desperation, TM tried hitting GZ to try to get away and GZ panicked and shot him then, then lied to LE about how everything happened knowing TM could not refute his tale....to try to save himself.

That is my theory of what happened. I wish there were more proof, but I hope GZ gets manslaughter.

It is a fact that GZ followed and harassed TM, and did not choose to follow LE advice to not follow him.

It is a fact that TM was trying to get away. GZ even said he was running away.

It does not make sense to me that TM would want to get away and circle back to confront at the same time.

No, he was skipping... lol :blowkiss:

 

[gxm]

FYI wftv poll yesterday had 75% thronging it would be a NG verdict, same as CA for conviction.

And this is Florida, land of the incomprehensible verdicts. JMO. OMO. MOO.

 

[Karmady]

I believe Hornsby is wrong. IIRC the judge denied based on hearsay. I seem to remember her saying something like "this is clearly relevant" during that testy hearing.

That is what she was focused on during the hearing. But there was a case directly on point to the contrary and authenticity is not as much a fact dependent determination as relevance and prejudice, which makes a relevance/prejudice ruling a little less likely to be overturned. Hornsby may be wrong, but I think it's possible she changed her mind on the basis for her ruling after looking into it a little more -- maybe with some advice. jmo

 

[Zuri]

I know there are moms on this jury. Is there someone who is LE also on this jury? The media keeps saying there are 5 moms. Then they question whether they can be fair given that 5 out of 6 have kids. Both TM and GZ are the children of someone. So IMO, that is kinda a moot point. So glad I am not on this jury. JMO

 

[lisasalinger]

All this drama HLN is spitting out is sickening. Something really ought to done abt media that gets out of line. imo

Good luck with that :facepalm: We will forever have to deal with media. Just like paparazzis. They are not going away anytime soon. We live in a world that is absolutely driven by social media and technology. As long as there is a public viewing websites, using smartphones, watching news, buying magazines, etc... there will always be media. In a sad and twisted way, we perpetuate all of it without really intending to.

The slight good news is that we can select the news outlets that we choose to follow. We just can't control what the rest of the public is doing and how tainted they are becoming.

IMO

 

[iluvmua]

I'm sadden by the fact that TM walked to the store for Skittles/Drink and ends up dead over nothing. He wasn't doing anything wrong what so ever. I can only imagine what his parents felt when they heard the news that their young son is dead and for what reason? Wow, I can't get pass that. So now TM's parents are listening to the NE call that GZ placed and I would be thinking WTFudge????? My son looks like he's up to no good simply because he's walking in the rain???? really???? But GZ gets out of his car, IN THE RAIN, to follow him. So, why can GZ be in the rain and think that's ok, but TM can't??? sorry, I don't get it!!!!! :banghead:

The thing that Trayvon did wrong was punch somebody in the nose and pound their head into the ground.

What Trayvon did is illegal and if he would have survived, he would probably been charged with attempted murder and be on trial just like george is now.

JMO

 

[sickofitAll]

That's 70% to 90% vote not guilty in a poll.

Yes...

I'm a contrarian in most cases... this poll doesn't work for me...

hope I'm wrong this time...

 

[bellaalex]

I have no problem with him saying whatever he thinks is right. But why continue to work for the State if he felt that strongly? Why not resign and go public? I have no respect for him at all.

IMO

He was put on a paid leave of absence in May. He may not have financially been able to just resign. "He said he had been proud to work at the State Attorney’s Office and feared the letter would cripple his chances at finding another job to support his family, including a 4-month-old son."

He did go public by testifying. I have tremendous respect for him as it was extremely brave of him to come forward! IMO. I am shocked by the states actions but I guess I shouldn't be after how this case has been so horribly mishandled.