Elisa Lam - What Happened?

[2Hip2BSquare]

The drowning doesn't add up.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

My issues are, did she die with her eyes closed? Or did someone close her eyes after she died? Bc the sclera are white. If her eyes has been open during and postmortem the sclera would have been red in areas.

Also, her oronasal passages were relatively clear. When people drown, these passages become filled with a foamy froth. No such froth was indicated in the findings. But then later in the report it is indicated her nostrils were obstructed which could be due to a number of post or pre mortem circumstances.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I wonder if her watch stopped at a specific time (if it wasn't submersible)?

Could give us indication to exact TOD she entered the water.

 

[jetsetsam]

"Both the coroner and police notice the sand like particulate matter (the detective note a white particle too) throughout her clothing"

I've worked on a lot of buildings, and spent a lot of time on their roofs.

It's surprising how much wind blown grit collects on roofs, especially in the corners behind the parapet.

I would expect to find sand-like grit on the roof of the Cecil, especially in a dry climate like LA.

But not in the water in a roof-top tank. Very fine particles (sludge) yes, but not sand. It would settle out, or be filtered out, before making its way up the pipe to the roof-top tank.

You can see from the photos that there was sludge in the bottom of the tank after the remains were removed. They could have compared the sludge at the bottom of the tank to the sand in her clothes, rather than just brainlessly noting it.

Maybe her clothes were removed and placed on the sand/grit covered roof, before being put in the tank.

 

[findinganatta]

Sorry but even psychosis wouldn't make her do that. She has no history of doing so.

You or I can't make that determination with any certainty at all. Psychosis as a side effect of bipolar disorder doesn't have to have a history, especially in someone as young as Elisa. Also--and most importantly--we have no idea if she has a history of this. We don't know her history. The little we do know comes from her own words, which directly indicated that she was experiencing serious bipolar disorder.

 

[findinganatta]

snipped...

You can see from the photos that there was sludge in the bottom of the tank after the remains were removed. They could have compared the sludge at the bottom of the tank to the sand in her clothes, rather than just brainlessly noting it.

I think that comparison would be in the police report if it was made. The medical examiners wouldn't be out on the roof comparing particles. They probably just made the comment because it's part of the formality of recording details, but any further investigation would be police work. This is purely the autopsy report, not the police investigation.

 

[jetsetsam]

Both the coroner and police notice the sand like particulate matter (the detective note a white particle too) throughout her clothing"

Apparently the police did note it.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

You or I can't make that determination with any certainty at all. Psychosis as a side effect of bipolar disorder doesn't have to have a history, especially in someone as young as Elisa. Also--and most importantly--we have no idea if she has a history of this. We don't know her history. The little we do know comes from her own words, which directly indicated that she was experiencing serious bipolar disorder.

The report clearly states that her sister was the source for determining bipolar, not a physician. They had no credible physician back up the assertion on file.


They didn't even determine or specify whether or not she was BP1 or BP2 (she claimed she THOUGHT she was BP2 which in women statistically causes many to commit suicide and not have manic induced "accidents")

furthermore, it said Bipolar was a contributing BUT not related to the immediate cause of death. So glad they took the sisters word for it rather than the docs. It's basically the same as saying "well she drown, but the only thing that seems strange about it is she was bipolar. Case closed."

The fact that it happened at a murder hotel also is the most OBVIOUS of many extreme circumstantial factors that further push my scope toward the focus of foul play.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

You or I can't make that determination with any certainty at all. Psychosis as a side effect of bipolar disorder doesn't have to have a history, especially in someone as young as Elisa. Also--and most importantly--we have no idea if she has a history of this. We don't know her history. The little we do know comes from her own words, which directly indicated that she was experiencing serious bipolar disorder.

Also her medication was in her system. How can one have a psychotic break when they are taking their medication?

 

[findinganatta]

Snipped...
This report certainly does not sufficiently support the ruling, IMO.

I agree. I wonder if this report includes the final drug analysis and if there are other tests that are not included here.

The dates are a little confused in my head, but from what I'm seeing through Google news, the first mention of the drug test results was in June. The drug test on this report is from March. I remember they supposedly did a battery of tests that took an extended period, and were carried out in outside lab(s). So that makes me wonder if this report contains all of the final results.

On the other hand, it's surprisingly easy for me to believe that this is the level of investigation for most deaths in a city like LA. Especially ones that are not blatantly obvious homicides, aren't highly scrutinized by the media, and/or don't involve influential people. To some extent, I can understand the lack of resources, time, and manpower in places that have so many deaths. On the other hand, it's hard to believe that in modern America we can't do a little better when it comes to peoples' lives.

But I am willing to hold back on making assumptions about report being the final story of the testing. I think it is possible that more testing was done, and that this particular report is simply what was done in the LA morgue. It's just another thing we can't know with any certainty : /

JMO

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

"Both the coroner and police notice the sand like particulate matter (the detective note a white particle too) throughout her clothing"

I've worked on a lot of buildings, and spent a lot of time on their roofs.

It's surprising how much wind blown grit collects on roofs, especially in the corners behind the parapet.

I would expect to find sand-like grit on the roof of the Cecil, especially in a dry climate like LA.

But not in the water in a roof-top tank. Very fine particles (sludge) yes, but not sand. It would settle out, or be filtered out, before making its way up the pipe to the roof-top tank.

You can see from the photos that there was sludge in the bottom of the tank after the remains were removed. They could have compared the sludge at the bottom of the tank to the sand in her clothes, rather than just brainlessly noting it.

Maybe her clothes were removed and placed on the sand/grit covered roof, before being put in the tank.

They noted that:

"all of the noted items had sand like particulates attached to the fabric and loosely present in the fold of the clothes and on the drying mats"

Also what photos of Elisa/sludge in the cistern have you seen? I did not see any.

Hope this helps.

 

[findinganatta]

Both the coroner and police notice the sand like particulate matter (the detective note a white particle too) throughout her clothing"

Apparently the police did note it.

Right, but this report does not contain the details of the police investigation. It mentions that a police officer saw the sand, but this is not a detailed account of how the police conducted their investigation. How the police reacted to the sand (and every other detail of their investigation) would be found in the police report.

 

[findinganatta]

They noted that:

"all of the noted items had sand like particulates attached to the fabric and loosely present in the fold of the clothes and on the drying mats"

Also what photos of Elisa/sludge in the cistern have you seen? I did not see any.

Hope this helps.

Someone posted detailed pictures of the rooftop a couple of months after Elisa was found. The tank still had the hole cut in the side of it, and there was a fairly large amount of sediment in an inch or two of water in the bottom of the tank. The pictures are in a thread on this forum (not sure where at the moment).

 

[jetsetsam]

Well then is it possible for someone to access a copy of the police report?

 

[jetsetsam]

"on the drying mats"

What's a drying mat? Something in an autopsy room?

 

[findinganatta]

Also her medication was in her system. How can one have a psychotic break when they are taking their medication?

Firstly, the report states that their results were inconclusive regarding the medication. Secondly, medication is far from a perfect science. Medication can help, but it can also induce episodes. It can also do nothing either way. On top of that, she was in a period of flux with her meds, as I believe she indicated a couple of months before she died. And when switching meds around, results can be unpredictable. As I've stated previously, when antidepressants alone are given to bipolar people, then can easily cause manic episodes... that's one example of the slippery nature of drugs and mental illness. Ultimately, the medication issue doesn't tell us a single thing one way or the other in this case.

Regardless, I don't want to argue about the mental illness. An endless debate that could be had, and we still wouldn't be any closer to the truth.

Here are the facts as I see them regarding her mental illness: There is strong indications that she suffered with serious bipolar, but we cannot say with certainty if it was or wasn't involved in her death. Period.

But for some of us, there is a strong indication that it was involved. And that is an assertion that is based on intuition, much like your assertion that the Cecil being a "murder hotel" causes you to lean further in the direction of foul play. We're all functioning largely off of intuition because the facts are still fairly bare, and in some cases are contradictory. That's why I don't think it is logical to hold too tightly to our own opinions, because we have a lot of blind spots in this case, and our minds start trying to fill in those blind spots with assumption.

 

[jetsetsam]

Something that really contributed to the twists in this sad case is the shared brain fart the dog handler and his dog had while searching the hotel.

They didn't have the benefit of the video until after the search.

But surely the dog was taken to the elevator, the elevator doors on each of the floors, down the halls to the fire escapes on the top floors, and up to the roof.

And nothing?

Nothing anywhere?

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Here are types of Atypical drowning deaths:

ATYPICAL DROWNING

1. Vagal inhibition - (cardiac arrest, laryngeal shock)
This is uncommon but well recognised. Loss of consciousness is usually instantaneous and death ensues soon afterwards, at most within a few minutes. Autopsy discloses none of the usual signs of drowning. The mechanism is believed to be cardiac arrest induced by impact of cold water on the back of the pharynx and larynx. The three circumstances common to these deaths are (a) entering the water feet first, (b) surprise or unpreparedness and (c) a "state of hypersensitivity" e.g. alcohol intoxication. Entering the water feet first it is easy for liquid to pass up the nose. Alternatively "duck-diving" or any clumsy diving with abdominal impact against the water can produce a similar result. Eye witnesses observe that there is no struggle by the victim who is found to be dead even if the body is immediately recovered. There may be instantaneous rigor (cadaveric spasm).


2. Laryngeal spasm -
There is likely some element of laryngeal spasm in all drowning deaths. However in these cases there is no evidence of aspiration of liquid and there are the typical signs of an asphyxial death including facial cynanosis and petechial haemorrhages. The mechanism is thought to be sudden chilling of the neck and chest followed by immediate inhalation of water resulting in reflex spasm of the larynx, early unconsciousness and a rapid asphyxia. The possibility of an asphyxial death prior to entry into the water myst be excluded (e.g. homicidal strangulation).


3. "Dry drowning" -
This terminology is not recommended. It derives from the division of drowning cases into "dry" and "wet" according to the condition of the lungs. However the finding of dry lungs indicates neither that water was inhaled nor that it was not. It is possible that water was inhaled, absorbed into the circulation and then death occurred prior to the onset of active pulmonary oedema. The confusing concept of dry drowning has been used to widen the spectrum of cases of vagal inhibition and laryngeal spasm bringing these valid concepts into some disrepute.


4. Delayed death - ("secondary drowning", post-immersion syndrome)
Occasionally death occurs after an individual has been taken from the water and appears to have recovered from a near drowning. Autopsy discloses acute pulmonary oedema. This phenomenon has been reproduced in animal experiments. Later complications include pneumonitis, broncho-pneumonia and hyaline membrane disease together with renal failure secondary to haemoglobinuria.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

"on the drying mats"

What's a drying mat? Something in an autopsy room?

Yes. The coroner was referring to the drying mats in the autopsy room.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Firstly, the report states that their results were inconclusive regarding the medication. Secondly, medication is far from a perfect science. Medication can help, but it can also induce episodes. It can also do nothing either way. On top of that, she was in a period of flux with her meds, as I believe she indicated a couple of months before she died. And when switching meds around, results can be unpredictable. As I've stated previously, when antidepressants alone are given to bipolar people, then can easily cause manic episodes... that's one example of the slippery nature of drugs and mental illness. Ultimately, the medication issue doesn't tell us a single thing one way or the other in this case.

Regardless, I don't want to argue about the mental illness. An endless debate that could be had, and we still wouldn't be any closer to the truth.

Here are the facts as I see them regarding her mental illness: There is strong indications that she suffered with serious bipolar, but we cannot say with certainty if it was or wasn't involved in her death. Period.

But for some of us, there is a strong indication that it was involved. And that is an assertion that is based on intuition, much like your assertion that the Cecil being a "murder hotel" causes you to lean further in the direction of foul play. We're all functioning largely off of intuition because the facts are still fairly bare, and in some cases are contradictory. That's why I don't think it is logical to hold too tightly to our own opinions, because we have a lot of blind spots in this case, and our minds start trying to fill in those blind spots with assumption.

Um but we actually have historical evidence that the hotel is a "murder haven".

We don't have historical evidence that Elisa has ever had bipolar pd, much the less psychosis.

if we base things off of what we KNOW and circumstance/history, We know the Cecil - the location of the crime - is the only qualify-able variable in this case that seems to have been a contributing factor. We dont know if Elisa was bipolar therefor I don't see how it can be considered a contributing factor.