16 July 2013 status conference discussion thread

[gcharlie]

I keep re-reading this too. The crazy is just...

On some level, I feel sorry for her. She is just so pathetic. That's probably because I have human feelings though and can't help it. Girl was unravelling.

It's odd though. She doesn't know what the hell she wants to say. All in one paragraph she'll be like "let's still be friends...but you don't have to be my friend...but I care about you so much we're best friends...but I don't want to saddle you with my friendship...but my friendship is very important to us!" It's insane.

I particularly enjoyed this little black and white, Borderline Jodi exchange:

"You see, I have no shame in being your friend. And if anyone ever tried to guilt me, judge me, criticized me, harass me or otherwise give me an ounce of crap over it, I would put them in their place so fast they would never think to open their mouths about on the subject again.

I’m not saying you should feel or do the same."

She snapped, but not on June 4th, long before that. Poor Travis. I know he could have handled her better in some ways...but how could he know?

Agreed, for all the nutso things she did that we know about (and probably many more we don't) poor Travis probably didn't have a clue how devious or violent she could become when she realized once and for all he would never be hers. I think she fantasized a good part of their 'relationship', and once she had to move back to Yreka she began devising a plan.

She either did something or he found out something between this letter and his text to get him so angry, but what? I really hope this piece of the puzzle becomes known.

I noticed you can practically just read the first sentence of each paragraph for content purposes, the rest if just so overworked and meandering.

Like your observations. IMO, TA was becoming increasingly concerned about CMJA's behavior and was doing his best to try to distance himself. Just days after this email, he and Regan were texting back and forth about CMJA's stalking, with TA saying he was extremely afraid.

Wish JM would/could focus more on this email. It helps to counter a lot of what was emphasized in trial. What really blows my mind is that it appears that this email may have been withheld from ALV. She made no mention of it, according to my notes and I was very attentive to her timeline testimony of the last several months of TA's life.

Think about the date of this email and when it falls within events of which we have knowledge:

-5/10 Sex tape
-5/10 Angry exchange of texts & IMs re: “Steve” text.
-5/15 Pix of JA and sister, Angela, on Helio phone. JA light brunette with blonde highlights.
-5/17 or 5/18- Helio phone “stolen”
-5/19 Travis and Regan text, discuss stalking. Travis very afraid.
-5/22 JA journal entry. Good news: has received new cell phone to replace missing one that was stolen; “mortified…hugely scandalous text from him (10 pages) that he sent last week…1 or 2 recorded conversations”. Also writes about “the conversation” with Travis.
-5/26 Travis texts JA with explosive “sociopath” message, ending with “You are the worst thing that ever happened to me.
-5/27 Travis shows text of 5/26 to friend Taylor Searle, who asks him if he is afraid. JA’s journal entry (per ALV) talks of plans to see Ryan Burns.
-5/28 25 caliber handgun stolen from JA’s grandparent’s home; break-in reported around 3:30 pm. Email from JA to Travis first mention of Cancun.
-5/30 JA journal (per ALV) plans for following week to spend a couple of days with Ryan Burns. Verizon phone records show no contact between TA & JA.
-5/31 Verizon phone records show no contact between TA & JA.
-6/1 JA journal with long entry. Per ALV, subject is going to visit Darryl, Matt and Ryan. Entry talks about mentioning trip to Travis, who is guilting her into coming to Mesa, but JA stands ground. Per ALV, JA said she had talked to Travis on the phone on 6/1 telling him about her plans to see Ryan, however Verizon phone records show no contact between TA & JA on this date. ALV says text messages are conversational.
-6/2 JA calls Travis 4 times from 1 am to 3 am; all calls are very brief. Travis makes 2 back to back calls (from 3 to 4 am) to JA lasting almost one hour.

 

[RR0004]

This is what I woke up to this morning on my Facebook news feed. Snarky Tweets from a murderer. Glad the haters get under her skin. And yeah, she's so worried about taxpayers. She just needs to STHU. Either way, Arias, the haters are free and you are in jail :jail: soon to go to prison :jail: where you will be forgotten about and all the haters will be going on with their lives, free as birds!

I'm sure those "haters" will be very willing to clap her all the way to the death chamber.
So, is it still her "friend" who's tweeting for her?

 

[RR0004]

Dear Jodi .. the State wants to kill you. The end.

Just perfect, Mrs. G....just perfect!

 

[Tuba]

Yesterday's reporting was somewhat misleading. The State filing of objection to the defense delays was made June 17. That was 5 days after 2014 was sought by Will Not & Nor Me. The content of State's objection has been published by ABC15 as of the date it was filed. I even cast a chart for it back then. There is apparently no new objection; it simply begs a ruling.

 

[Jasper52]

WOW, thanks for posting that email. I can only echo the sentiments already expressed above with the exception of the ole' saying "With friends like that, who needs enemies?"

Poor Travis...

 

[Liebchenmutti]

Just curious, where could I find the information you just posted? I don't remember this about their discussion. Thank you!!

I can't remember exactly--it was either discussed by ALV on the stand, or Jodi did. It was in testimony & Jodi wanted Travis to read and discuss the email & he said that he had read it twice and still couldn't understand her point--hopefully someone here can be more specific.

I'm thinking it's probably part of Jodi's cross exam by Juan.

 

[Liebchenmutti]

I don't think anyone is assigning blame to Travis. I think everyone acknowledges why he was with her.

The rest is on JA. She flipped out and viciously murdered him b/c she didn't get what she wanted.

I think I just was reacting to her whole Twitter temper-tantrum. I just can't wait until she's put away in a hole somewhere for the rest of her life & we can discuss Juan Martinez' next case & not her! lease:

 

[Pink Panther]

I can't remember exactly--it was either discussed by ALV on the stand, or Jodi did. It was in testimony & Jodi wanted Travis to read and discuss the email & he said that he had read it twice and still couldn't understand her point--hopefully someone here can be more specific.

I'm thinking it's probably part of Jodi's cross exam by Juan.

ALV...

:floorlaugh:

:floorlaugh:





:floorlaugh:

 

[Pink Panther]

I'm so happy when I check in and hear almost nothing about JA and what she thinks and what she says. Ahhh...A breath of fresh air. She's in there. She's locked up. Who cares how long the banter goes on about her situation as long as she's jailed and and quiet.

moo

 

[RR0004]

So she's back to tweeting with more twisted communication.

I stumbled on the email below from CMJA to Travis that was dated 5/16/08. I recall hearing snippets of it, but I don't remember really focusing on it. The email is notable given the date it was written and the content. CMJA is all over the map in trying to define her relationship with Travis and her feelings about their relationship, past present and future. One can only imagine what it must be like to try to deal with this sociopath. Reading it, I keep wondering which way is up, that is how manipulative she is.

I've bolded a few lines where she keeps insisting that they are friends, but feels that Travis did not give her recognition as a girlfriend

Source: http://jodi-arias.wikispaces.com/Jodi%27s+email+to+Travis+May+16

May 16th, 2008

Travis,

Hey there, I feel like sharing this you, after all you are my friend. It’s been a bit of a sore subject for both of us in the past and sometimes it feels that it continues to be. But I hope you’ll understand where I am coming from. I really hope you can stretch your mind and heart for this and put yourself in my shoes for the moment. I’m not saying you have to stay there nor do you have to agree with me, but I think if you give it an honest and sincere effort you will surely understand the way I feel, and why it is I sometimes feel this way.

I know the tone of an email or text message can sometimes be ambiguous since the receiver is only interpreting what the tone of the sender would be if it were spoken, so please know that the spirit in which I send this is that of love, camaraderie and (?) (friendship).

Here goes ...

I realized after further introspection why it is that I asked you to give me a little mention in your next post as credit for the task of editing and grammar and typing the lengthy thing out. Partly, it is obvious. You gave your friend Katie a mention, and that was just for the intro. Logically, I am your friend, too. Your first chapter is at length much longer, and so being the human that I am, it would make me feel good to have a little recognition thrown my way. But it goes deeper than that. I know I should be over this by now, and on most levels I am, really. But I feel that I never got the proper “credit” or recognition I deserved as your girlfriend. You say it is because you’re a private person. You say it was because of Deanna. You say it was because you were rather attached to the reputation of being a single, eligible bachelor. I understand all of that, I really do, and that’s okay, hon. I don’t harbor bad feelings over any of that stuff, I’m serious. You may be asking yourself why then the lengthy email detailing all of this if that is in fact the case? Well it’s good thing this is in “writing” because if that is your question it has already been answered in the first paragraph of this email. Refer back to it if you wish. But my cry for a little recognition comes from a place within me that feels it was never adequately gratified in that it thirsted to be validated not just as some girl friend that you associated with, but as your girlfriend. I wasn’t asking you to give me credit for all of your greatness, no. If I had anything to do with that then it was only a very tiny part, if at all. Though I was beginning to wonder if you were going to be the type to subscribe to the philosophy that behind every great man there is a great woman (I think that philosophy is a two-way street by the way).

I find myself now wishing to be recognized as your friend, and I think that comes from the fact that there is a hesitancy on your part to grant me that recognition within your circle of friends.

I am going to digress a bit but I am going to try to fit it all together. Either way this isn’t so much about flowing as it is purging.

About your mode of operation with Deanna, I both appreciated it and despised it at times. I could care less now. It was a double-edged sword for you, I know, for me, as well. If Deanna was happy, Travis was happy, Jodi was happy. True you didn’t want to deal with her interrogation and emotions and in large part, you wanted to protect her. Easily understandable for me having the soft heart that I do when it comes to matters of romance and broken hearts. Protecting her? That is very characteristic of your (?) caring considerate side. You’ve shown that to me as well on countless occasions. You are a bit of a people pleaser and that has been to my benefit and not. Again, it is a double-edged sword. You go out of your way to do things for me that will make me happy and you consider my feelings when doing certain things. I also realize it gets you tied up in certain ways, this incident about your blog namely, when you didn’t even want to give my name a mention because of the unwelcome crap and comments you receive by your friends, Chris and Sky Hughes. So there is a bit of people pleasing going on it seems with none of your friendships beyond just the spectrum of ours.

Well, I’m going to make it easier for you. Given our history and the fact that we’ve dated and all, if any of your friendships should take the back burner, it should be the one you have to hide from others. Don’t misunderstand me. Remember the spirit in which I am saying this. I value your friendship as one the greatest treasures I have ever had the fortune of having, having knowing and experiencing. Have I mishandled it in the past? Guilty. Both of our back records have been tarnished but that doesn’t diminish how much we value each other and the inherent divinity that is within us.

When you are scrutinized, criticized and question about being my friend that’s one thing. It hurts us both, yes, but it is easily rectified by standing strong and firm in defence of our friendship. You’ve done that plenty of times. Even perhaps when I was undeserving of such defence. But when you have to censor our friendship for fear of the criticism you will receive as a result of it, then it becomes awkwardly and embarrassingly apparent that something is not right, especially when all it is, is a friendship. A friendship. We’re not secret lovers. It’s a friendship.

I am proud to call you my friend. I even brag about you to whoever will listen to promote you, speak highly of you and give you all of the accolades you’ve ever deserved any chance I get. I’ve never had to hide our friendship from anyone. Never, I would publish it in major newspapers nationwide and broadcast it on syndicated radio and national television.

You see, I have no shame in being your friend. And if anyone ever tried to guilt me, judge me, criticized me, harass me or otherwise give me an ounce of crap over it, I would put them in their place so fast they would never think to open their mouths about on the subject again.

I’m not saying you should feel or do the same. But because I am your friend first and foremost and because I care very much about your happiness and well-being I think you would be better off if you had one less person to worry about pleasing. I am sure that you can agree with that much. It is so simple to please me, it really is (it’s the little things that just make my entire day) but I haven’t always made it easy for you.

So I’m going to be proactive and remove myself from the list of people you have to worry about pleasing. Still friends? Of course, silly! We’re not about to dissolve a friendship that was firmly formed almost 2 years ago (likely long before that in the grander scheme of things aka The Pre-Existence). But here I am with the proverbial scissors cutting the proverbial strings of our friendship. We remain friends only now because of our free will to do so, not because we feel as though we are still tied to each other and have to be because of some imagined obligation or nicety.

This I believe will make your life a lot less stressful and all around saner. If anything it will be a weight off of your shoulders, one you’ve shouldered like a champ, believe me. You’ve done more for me than some friends that I’ve known for nearly 20 years. I love you and I will always be here for you as your friend and confidant. Take comfort in that if it brings you any.

Faithfully Your Friend,

Jodi Arias.

Is this email for real? The only reason I ask is that the person who typed it (perhaps?) spelled defense..."defence" (british spelling?). I wonder if they did copy it if we ever saw the original. Anyone know?

 

[rose222]

I think we should be careful when assigning any blame to Travis for his murder. The only side of the story we have is from Jodi's mouth, her faked diaries and her testimony.

Travis met a hot blonde in Las Vegas and was probably "in lust" with her as they stayed up talking all night, seemingly having many things in common. I'm sure he was thrilled that it was easy to get this girl as Jodi began only living for Travis. Travis kept his own life going--Jodi did not. That's HER FAULT, not Travis'.

It stroked Travis' male ego to have a blonde sex kitten who was so into him. As he gradually saw her true evil core, I'm sure he would have given anything to go back in time and NOT speak to her at the MGM. Too late he found out her true ugly, deformed stinking insides as she hacked him to death.

Do you guys also feel sorry for George Clooney's girlfriends because he never marries them? I don't--he's pretty open about not getting married. I see that he gets tired of women after 2 years or so & moves on. If one of his girlfriends slit his throat, stabbed him 27 times and shot him in the face, then dragged him like a sack of garbage to rot in his shower, I don't think we'd say things like "he was partly to blame."

Travis didn't take Jodi's virginity and then after promising to marry her, dumped her. She was NOT naive--she was very, very savvy. She was living with a man in a home she paid half of the mortgage on. She'd been living with men since dropping out of high school at 17.

Did Jodi not understand that it's not normal to sleep under Travis' Christmas tree after she was asked to leave? Really? That was even before they dated. Jodi inserted herself into Travis' life WITHOUT AN INVITATION.

And for all the people that think that by sleeping with Jodi Travis somehow OWED her something--that's absurd. A grown woman making decision to have a sexual relationship needs to take responsibility for it & that means that she understands that a purely sexual relationship doesn't usually lead to LOVE.

Jodi was sexually aggressive, sexual with no boundaries, and she has no shame. She "converted" to Mormonism almost immediately after meeting Travis--she holds nothing sacred. She decided that Travis was going to marry her even if she had to stalk him to get it done.

Stalkers do not deserve any pity--they are evil people who feel justified in robbing another person of their privacy and they feel justified in intruding into someone's life.

So if there is some new rule that states that if you have sex with a partner for X number of times, you are then bound to marry them, then Travis had every right to have consensual sex with an experienced, worldly Jodi and he also had the right NOT to marry a psycho stalker.

Excellent post. Also, the reason Travis' friends treated JA as though she were inferior is because they realized how utterly creepy and crazy she was. Remember the Hughes initially supported JA. It's too bad that Travis' friends realized that JA was capable of violence but Travis did not. In the end his naivety cost him his life.

 

[rose222]

Is this email for real? The only reason I ask is that the person who typed it (perhaps?) spelled defense..."defence" (british spelling?). I wonder if they did copy it if we ever saw the original. Anyone know?

It is the British version of defense. Some spell checks automatically change defense to defence.

 

[rose222]

Thanks for posting this. I have not read any of the emails unless they were referred to in court and I came late in the game when she had already started testifying.

This letter to me, full of errors, Is nothing but manipulation. She is trying to be magnanimous but to me it comes off as controlling and sneaky.

She loves attention. Craves it. When she does not get it, it is at that person's peril if she indeed is fixated on them.
I am surprised that she did not go after the other girlfriends but I realize it is because she viewed this as Travis's weakness, He was the one that was punishing her. So he had to go.

I was thinking today how much she craved the limelight during her trial. At least she is silent for now.. Her twitter account aside, I think more and more people just don't care.

Yes! JA was not ok with losing Travis in any way. Why then did she write that mail? She wanted attention. She wanted Travis to reassure her that he was going to fight for her, remain friends and maybe more...

Travis was not at fault at all. He seems to have made it clear that she was not girlfriend material. I think he realized pretty early on that JA was not even friend material. He didn't know how to get rid of her. She threw herself at him hoping he'd atleast sleep with her which he did. JA herself admits that Travis bought her food, loaned her money etc. Travis was too kind and sweet to be blunt with JA and get rid of her for good. Something happened in April/May of 2008 (I think she blackmailed him with the sex tapes) that finally forced Travis to get stern with her. Even that attempt was pathetic. He didn't throw her out on June 3rd/4th. She murdered him.

 

[MeeBee]

Like your observations. IMO, TA was becoming increasingly concerned about CMJA's behavior and was doing his best to try to distance himself. Just days after this email, he and Regan were texting back and forth about CMJA's stalking, with TA saying he was extremely afraid.

Wish JM would/could focus more on this email. It helps to counter a lot of what was emphasized in trial. What really blows my mind is that it appears that this email may have been withheld from ALV. She made no mention of it, according to my notes and I was very attentive to her timeline testimony of the last several months of TA's life.

Think about the date of this email and when it falls within events of which we have knowledge:

-5/10 Sex tape
-5/10 Angry exchange of texts & IMs re: “Steve” text.
-5/15 Pix of JA and sister, Angela, on Helio phone. JA light brunette with blonde highlights.
-5/17 or 5/18- Helio phone “stolen”
-5/19 Travis and Regan text, discuss stalking. Travis very afraid.
-5/22 JA journal entry. Good news: has received new cell phone to replace missing one that was stolen; “mortified…hugely scandalous text from him (10 pages) that he sent last week…1 or 2 recorded conversations”. Also writes about “the conversation” with Travis.
-5/26 Travis texts JA with explosive “sociopath” message, ending with “You are the worst thing that ever happened to me.
-5/27 Travis shows text of 5/26 to friend Taylor Searle, who asks him if he is afraid. JA’s journal entry (per ALV) talks of plans to see Ryan Burns.
-5/28 25 caliber handgun stolen from JA’s grandparent’s home; break-in reported around 3:30 pm. Email from JA to Travis first mention of Cancun.
-5/30 JA journal (per ALV) plans for following week to spend a couple of days with Ryan Burns. Verizon phone records show no contact between TA & JA.
-5/31 Verizon phone records show no contact between TA & JA.
-6/1 JA journal with long entry. Per ALV, subject is going to visit Darryl, Matt and Ryan. Entry talks about mentioning trip to Travis, who is guilting her into coming to Mesa, but JA stands ground. Per ALV, JA said she had talked to Travis on the phone on 6/1 telling him about her plans to see Ryan, however Verizon phone records show no contact between TA & JA on this date. ALV says text messages are conversational.
-6/2 JA calls Travis 4 times from 1 am to 3 am; all calls are very brief. Travis makes 2 back to back calls (from 3 to 4 am) to JA lasting almost one hour.

This timeline is really interesting. To me it seems end of April-beginning of June she just went crazy and the whole month was just a whirlwind of psycho. I honestly think she thought about killing Travis long before she stole the gun from her gp's. Who knows what she was trying to accomplish with the sex tape and that long text Travis sent, but it was definitely something. Her cryptic journal entries show that. The way she writes about them has me convinced that she manipulated Travis into those things so she could use them later. That long, sexy text he sent her never sat right with me. Why would he do that? And he'd never, from what we've seen, wrote something quite like that to her before.

We know he was already getting scared of her because she was hacking his accounts and acting very odd. It seems that month was just a crescendo to the explosion on June 4th. Oh my god, why why why did he let her in that day, let alone sleep with her?

I think I also read somewhere that one of his roommates said that the reason Travis was up so early that morning was because he felt scared of something and was trying to drive out evil or something to that effect.

 

[Myvice]

I would love to hear the background story on how the sex tape was entered into evidence. I understand that Juan deferred to it being Travis but there were things in it that just didn't jive for me.

Also a text the same day referred to being tied to a tree by someone else if I remember right. If you were engaging in a sex tape I can't imagine you would bring up a sore subject. The whole thing was so phony IMO.

 

[wsreader]

Thanks for the link to the letter above MeeBee, I tend to think JA had a point, Travis and his friends were acting as if they were way above her, and he was continuing to see her when it suited him, then denying it publicly. I am not condoning what she did by any means, but there was fault in the relationship on his side too, and for this he is responsible. It is not ok to treat a friend like someone you are too ashamed to associate publicly with, if you really feel this way, why are you spending any time with them at all?

I understand your point Mrs. G. I also agree with a lot of the posts from WSers about their interactions and mistakes he made. In no way do I think it was his fault. I think she manipulated him and he had no idea what kind of monster he was dealing with. It's sad to me that Travis had no point of reference from dealing with anyone as evil, selfish, and manipulative as she was. The love that his previous girlfriends still had for him speaks volumes.
I watched the trial with my son always on my mind. He also has a big heart and tends to give people the benefit of the doubt. I am horrified that someone like her could someday cross paths with him. The whole thing was heartbreaking to watch, wasn't it? It's scary that people like her are out there in the world with us and people that we love.

 

[LambChop]

Yesterday's reporting was somewhat misleading. The State filing of objection to the defense delays was made June 17. That was 5 days after 2014 was sought by Will Not & Nor Me. The content of State's objection has been published by ABC15 as of the date it was filed. I even cast a chart for it back then. There is apparently no new objection; it simply begs a ruling.

It does seem strange defense wants to put off the trial until January, 2014. What could be the reason???? I did happen to notice that JA had her hair up in a bun for court and there still seems to be quite a bit of hair on her head. One of her mitigating factors was how she has donated her hair 3 times, was it, to Locks of Love. Her hair is long past the cutting point to donate so what stops her from cutting her hair now?

 

[OEJ]

1. Jodi Arias ‏@Jodiannarias39mThe State rejected my 3rd request for a plea to settle quietly and less expensively. Off to retrial we go. Sorry, taxpayers.
   
   

Jodi Arias ‏@Jodiannarias42m
A few of my dedicated haters came all the way 2 court 2day just 2 glare at me. I'm flattered. Thought it was I who had nothing better 2 do.

Wow! Way to show remorse, Jodi. It's things like this that make me want the death penalty in this case.

 

[geevee]

It is the British version of defense. Some spell checks automatically change defense to defence.

LOL Maybe the spellchecker thought she was speaking The Queen's English. :facepalm:

I think she spelled it that way on her own, another one of her passive manipulation tugs to get him to respond and to subliminally remind him she was being the Bigger one, she was severing the friendship because *his* friends didn't like her, not because she didn't like him. She plays so many mind games and believed at one point that the pen was mighter than the sword.

 

[thefragile7393]

I think we should be careful when assigning any blame to Travis for his murder. The only side of the story we have is from Jodi's mouth, her faked diaries and her testimony.

Travis met a hot blonde in Las Vegas and was probably "in lust" with her as they stayed up talking all night, seemingly having many things in common. I'm sure he was thrilled that it was easy to get this girl as Jodi began only living for Travis. Travis kept his own life going--Jodi did not. That's HER FAULT, not Travis'.

It stroked Travis' male ego to have a blonde sex kitten who was so into him. As he gradually saw her true evil core, I'm sure he would have given anything to go back in time and NOT speak to her at the MGM. Too late he found out her true ugly, deformed stinking insides as she hacked him to death.

Do you guys also feel sorry for George Clooney's girlfriends because he never marries them? I don't--he's pretty open about not getting married. I see that he gets tired of women after 2 years or so & moves on. If one of his girlfriends slit his throat, stabbed him 27 times and shot him in the face, then dragged him like a sack of garbage to rot in his shower, I don't think we'd say things like "he was partly to blame."

Travis didn't take Jodi's virginity and then after promising to marry her, dumped her. She was NOT naive--she was very, very savvy. She was living with a man in a home she paid half of the mortgage on. She'd been living with men since dropping out of high school at 17.

Did Jodi not understand that it's not normal to sleep under Travis' Christmas tree after she was asked to leave? Really? That was even before they dated. Jodi inserted herself into Travis' life WITHOUT AN INVITATION.

And for all the people that think that by sleeping with Jodi Travis somehow OWED her something--that's absurd. A grown woman making decision to have a sexual relationship needs to take responsibility for it & that means that she understands that a purely sexual relationship doesn't usually lead to LOVE.

Jodi was sexually aggressive, sexual with no boundaries, and she has no shame. She "converted" to Mormonism almost immediately after meeting Travis--she holds nothing sacred. She decided that Travis was going to marry her even if she had to stalk him to get it done.

Stalkers do not deserve any pity--they are evil people who feel justified in robbing another person of their privacy and they feel justified in intruding into someone's life.

So if there is some new rule that states that if you have sex with a partner for X number of times, you are then bound to marry them, then Travis had every right to have consensual sex with an experienced, worldly Jodi and he also had the right NOT to marry a psycho stalker.

I can't say thank you enough. A voice of reason.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2