Elisa Lam - What Happened?

[Conductor71]

Any word yet on the police report?

I just received a denial for our request based on some very dubios criteria.

It stated we had to be relatives (this is not true).

It also stated that we had to receive authorization from the investigating detectives' division for reports on deceased victims of crimes other than a traffic collision.

I am not quite sure how all of a sudden EL is victim to a crime? Since when is a traffic collision a type of crime? Nice one LAPD!

 

[Nickfalzone]

Here is your answer. Under CPRA the LAPD is required to provide police reports within 10 days of request. If there are portions of the report that compromise either another investigation or detail certain police/undercover techniques, then those portions may be omitted. You do not need to be a family member to get a copy of the police report. From what I've read, it often takes pestering them several times to request it, but we are entitled to it one way or another:

http://www.lapdonline.org/i_want_to_know/content_basic_view/36329

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I haven't followed this case closely so please excuse me if I am asking redundant questions!

- Do we know the layout of the hotel, and where she would have been able to get onto the roof at?

This is the thing that makes me feel it was anything but a tragic accident as reported, unless this particular hotel had roof access that regular guests could get to from the inside.

I'm not verified, so take this as you will. JMO, IMO, etc. etc.... I am a hotel worker and there is absolutely no way a guest could gain access to our roof without an employee being with them. You would have to get through an employees only locked door, possibly two in some places. And even then it's not just a door or staircase, you climb a ladder to the roof and open a hatch. I have worked at two seperate hotels and they were both this way.

It's possible the hotel EL was staying at had a staircase to the roof, but I can't imagine regular guests could get up there. I would think it would be locked on both sides - once to get into the staircase, and once to get onto the roof.

And if all odds were in that favor and she got up onto the roof, were the water tanks in a seperate room? Again, I can't see the door to that being unlocked. Or are they just sitting up on top of the roof?

As I said before, I don't know all the facts in this case and I'm sure it's been discussed to death. And I'm not saying the official report was incorrect, with it being an accident. I just can't get over the coincidences that would have had to happen for her to get through a minimum of 2 locked doors into employee only areas, and somehow figure out how to get into the water tanks.

Heres the elevator keypad as well:

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I just received a denial for our request based on some very dubios criteria.

It stated we had to be relatives (this is not true).

It also stated that we had to receive authorization from the investigating detectives' division for reports on deceased victims of crimes other than a traffic collision.

I am not quite sure how all of a sudden EL is victim to a crime? Since when is a traffic collision a type of crime? Nice one LAPD!

Yes. A criminal investigation for an accidental drowning? Hm. Nice one indeed!

 

[freewynd]

pretty much from what I gather, in order to get the report, you have to get it through the family or the attorney of the family (not sure if the family is pressing charges against the hotel since it was deemed accidental and not suicide.) If there is an ongoing lawsuit between the family and the hotel, it maybe awhile before getting the documents. If you do get them, i bet a lot of it will be blacked out, since the investigation deals with Elisa's mental health, which is considered privy information. I'd love to see the final police report, your best bet would be contact an attorney student, who can write a professional formal application to receive the information. Usually law students know how to bring up the right words and expedite things along.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

pretty much from what I gather, in order to get the report, you have to get it through the family or the attorney of the family (not sure if the family is pressing charges against the hotel since it was deemed accidental and not suicide.) If there is an ongoing lawsuit between the family and the hotel, it maybe awhile before getting the documents. If you do get them, i bet a lot of it will be blacked out, since the investigation deals with Elisa's mental health, which is considered privy information. I'd love to see the final police report, your best bet would be contact an attorney student, who can write a professional formal application to receive the information. Usually law students know how to bring up the right words and expedite things along.

Thank you so much for this!

And great point about pending or current lawsuits and the mental health confidentiality etc.

 

[coeurfragile]

Thank you Hip2BeSquare, those photos are very helpful!

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

It is possible there's even a lawsuit against the hotel for not having their roof top access secured/alarmed if Elisa indeed was able to walk up the steps to the rooftop access and open the door easily without any alarm/lock to stop her.

A user earlier on the rooftop thread spoke about how they were on the rooftop with their friend on Feb. 8 and the rooftop access door was unlocked.

With this hotel's history of suicide jumps, they probably are going through a private suit if not with the patrons over water, then with Elisa's family for not securing their rooftop accesses.

 

[bobmeier]

Been following everything here closely for the last few months - thanks again to the group of users that worked together to get the Autopsy report and tried to recieve the police report! But since that request was denied, and the process of requesting it through a laywer seems rather complex and long, im guessing we will not get any further info anytime soon?
Which would personally bug me, because the medical report didnt really clear up all the questions or rule out some of the plausible theories that were stated here... But I guess with the lack of further information, there is nothing to do except wait for unexpected developments in the case or simply accept what the authorities have released so far.

 

[freewynd]

It's very hard to sue a business/person on a suicide attempt. As long as the owner can prove they were within normal safety procedure (everything maintained and correctly installed such as railings, windows, etc) you can't be held responsible for someone doing something stupid. Cecil hotel being older, might have some fathered clauses to prevent it from being up-to-date. The stairwell roof top looked to match code, the fire escape on the outside is probably fathered in since it's an older building. Depending on how she accessed the ladder (if she went through a window that was suppose to be alarmed) that might cause for a lawsuit if the alarm doesn't go off. If she accessed it from the outside, once again the hotel probably can't be held liable. The water tanks on the top, i don't know if building construction laws has a requirement for them to be locked or not, i work in steel, but we don't have to build tanks. I'm sure all of this is being researched by attorney's right now. It will probably be over another year before everything is settled, where the case is completely closed and access to the general public. There's only like 3 or 4 details im interested in, that should show up in the crime report that probably points to how the police came up with their conclusion.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

It's very hard to sue a business/person on a suicide attempt. As long as the owner can prove they were within normal safety procedure (everything maintained and correctly installed such as railings, windows, etc) you can't be held responsible for someone doing something stupid. Cecil hotel being older, might have some fathered clauses to prevent it from being up-to-date. The stairwell roof top looked to match code, the fire escape on the outside is probably fathered in since it's an older building. Depending on how she accessed the ladder (if she went through a window that was suppose to be alarmed) that might cause for a lawsuit if the alarm doesn't go off. If she accessed it from the outside, once again the hotel probably can't be held liable. The water tanks on the top, i don't know if building construction laws has a requirement for them to be locked or not, i work in steel, but we don't have to build tanks. I'm sure all of this is being researched by attorney's right now. It will probably be over another year before everything is settled, where the case is completely closed and access to the general public. There's only like 3 or 4 details im interested in, that should show up in the crime report that probably points to how the police came up with their conclusion.

Ok -this whole long thing -

Thank you for corroborating my claim that an unlocked window or non locked/alarmed roof access could warrant a suit.

That's all.

(i love being countered with what i said in basic summation with the exact same theory in greater detail)

 

[freewynd]

I'm guessing the family is probably going through the emotions still, I saw an article while back where the dad is still questioning LAPD's investigation. I think he will probably come amends with it and put a lawsuit on this later. Even though I think the owner of the hotel has changed hands, there's plenty of time still to go after insurance companies. Depending on how the insurance companies attorney's handle the case, they may strike a bargain right away or decide to fight it. If they fight it, you may find more answers to a lot of the questions still floating around. New witnesses and such who saw her prior to her death. I just found this case interesting, because I have a friend who suffers from similar depression type symptoms that Elisa has. The only difference is Elisa tended to be more adventurous.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I'm guessing the family is probably going through the emotions still, I saw an article while back where the dad is still questioning LAPD's investigation. I think he will probably come amends with it and put a lawsuit on this later. Even though I think the owner of the hotel has changed hands, there's plenty of time still to go after insurance companies. Depending on how the insurance companies attorney's handle the case, they may strike a bargain right away or decide to fight it. If they fight it, you may find more answers to a lot of the questions still floating around. New witnesses and such who saw her prior to her death. I just found this case interesting, because I have a friend who suffers from similar depression type symptoms that Elisa has. The only difference is Elisa tended to be more adventurous.

Thank you! This was very informative for me.

Please contribute more often.

That's a good point about finding more info about Elisa's stay at the hotel possibly through witness testimonies if they so choose to fight/sue.

 

[freewynd]

Been doing some more research on the water tank business in regards to safety:

https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=25100

Government safety site, this was back in 2005.

Question 5: Does a flanged or hinged manway cover on the top of the tank need to comply with the "Safe Access Hatch" detail, D-6, in 1910.27? For example, does it need to be counterweighted? Does it need a lock-open device? (The manway may or may not have ladder under it. If a ladder is included, it is usually climbed from the top down, not from the bottom up, and any hasp, lock, or handle will always be on the top side of the manway.)

Response:No. The provisions under 1910.27 do not require that every hinged ladderway opening cover, such as a manway cover, comply with the "Safe Access Hatch", requirements contained in 1910.27(c)(7) and illustrated in Figure D-6. The design specifications contained in 1910.27(c)(7) apply only to hatch covers that are designed and provided with counterweights. In other words, if a hinged cover is designed with a counterweight, then the design specifications of this hatch cover must meet 1910.27(c)(7) requirements. In addition, OSHA standards do not require that manway covers be provided with lock-open devices.

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Two things to remember, the tanks don't have direct ladder access and they are old (meaning different rules could of applied back then). So unfortunately the Lam's probably can't hold the hotel liable for unlocked lids. It's really going to come down on how she accessed the fire escape ladder on the outside. The police report, if the LAPD did it correctly, hopefully shows some clues of finger prints on a window opened.

My question to the community is, how long can you trace fingerprints outside? (eg would be on metal after say a rain shower).

 

[Stella]

I voted Accidental because I think from looking at the video that she was having a bipolar high that was making her very messed up in her actions. I haven't read this whole thing but I wonder if perhaps in her "I can do anything" state of mind, she might (alone or with someone) decided to go swimming in the tank, then got in trouble, panicked and drowned? I don't think the Cecil has a swimming pool; just thought I'd toss the idea out there. People in a bipolar high will often do foolish, unreal things they wouldn't normally do.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I voted Accidental because I think from looking at the video that she was having a bipolar high that was making her very messed up in her actions. I haven't read this whole thing but I wonder if perhaps in her "I can do anything" state of mind, she might (alone or with someone) decided to go swimming in the tank, then got in trouble, panicked and drowned? I don't think the Cecil has a swimming pool; just thought I'd toss the idea out there. People in a bipolar high will often do foolish, unreal things they wouldn't normally do.

Would you still believe that she was on a bipolar high if it was found in her toxicology testing and prescriptions in evidence that she was taking her meds and wasn't abusing them or taking them improperly?

No snark here. Honestly curious if it would change your view... It's been nagging at me myself.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Btw the term for a bipolar "high" is manic... Or in Elisa's specific case as being Bipolar 2 - Hypo-Manic, a more subdued episode of mania.

 

[Stella]

Would you still believe that she was on a bipolar high if it was found in her toxicology testing and prescriptions in evidence that she was taking her meds and wasn't abusing them or taking them improperly?

No snark here. Honestly curious if it would change your view... It's been nagging at me myself.

I don't think she could get out of bed without her meds. I believe she said so in her blog. Even on meds, taken regularly and properly, there are going to be "high" moments and very few patients will tell their doctor because they don't want to lose the feeling. It can take months to get the dosage right so that this doesn't happen. Add other drugs to it like painkillers/ecstasy and the high gets even higher.

 

[Nickfalzone]

I voted Accidental because I think from looking at the video that she was having a bipolar high that was making her very messed up in her actions. I haven't read this whole thing but I wonder if perhaps in her "I can do anything" state of mind, she might (alone or with someone) decided to go swimming in the tank, then got in trouble, panicked and drowned? I don't think the Cecil has a swimming pool; just thought I'd toss the idea out there. People in a bipolar high will often do foolish, unreal things they wouldn't normally do.

That is essentially what the police concluded. I would be a little more inclined to believe your theory if the tank was open or relatively easy to access. But it wasn't - it required walking past the first set of water tanks, climbing up a rickety ladder, and getting through the narrow opening that she would just barely have been able to squeeze her body through. I still say murder, but until we get the police report obv. there's not much else to go on.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I don't think she could get out of bed without her meds. I believe she said so in her blog. Even on meds, taken regularly and properly, there are going to be "high" moments and very few patients will tell their doctor because they don't want to lose the feeling. It can take months to get the dosage right so that this doesn't happen. Add other drugs to it like painkillers/ecstasy and the high gets even higher.

But they found no evidence of other drugs in her body. No painkillers. No Molly. Just her psychoactive drugs that were used primarily to deal with her depressive episodes. Her RX list compared to her pills showed no over or under use. If she could hardly get out of bed, that would be a depressive psychosis that would not mirror her paranoia on the elevator video.