Did John Ramsey carry the body to contaminate the scene or not?

[SapphireSteel]

No one is judging them for anything they did that morning.

It's what they did the night before that I'm basing my opinion on.

What they did afterwards, too.

:cow:

 

[Ausgirl]

I see plenty of people judging them for -everything- they did that day.

This entire poll is based on judgement of what was done that day.

Anyway, there's an answer to your question.

People do things that don't make sense when they find people they love dead. That's just what happens.

eta: aaand I just realised I've been saying 'morning' quite mistakenly. It's been one of those days. Corrected now.

 

[Ausgirl]

Have you ever seen a corpse that has been sittiing around for 7+ hours?

Decay has already begun. JB's eyes would have started to fall back in her skull (sorry). She would have begun to turn blue in her extremities. She was frozen rigid in the position she was left in, with her arms sticking straight up, but still he hoisted her.

It would have been like picking up a dead sheep carcass out of the paddock. Already some insect activity, some odour, totally resistant to movement - the term "dead weight" springs to mind.

===

JR picking up her remains and walking upstairs with it would have been like something out of a horror story. If you haven't been around a lot of fresh dead bodies, there's a reason why dead bodies are covered with sheets. They just aren't pretty, and they ARE NOT the person you've just lost, merely a shell.
:

SS, forgive me - I'm not picking on you here. But this is not what it's like at all.

When you find a loved one who's recently died (and I mean measured in hours, not like, a week ago) unexpectedly, in your home, MY experience is that your mind doesn't turn to "insect activity".. or anything of the sort.

You see the person you love lying there, and they are not "a shell", sorry -- it's them, but they are not moving or breathing... "death" is a very hard thing to accept in that moment, and maybe some hours after.

A part of you knows they're gone, of course-- but another part is screaming that they can't be, and so, even though he was about as dead as dead gets, we still shook him, pleaded with him to wake up...

It's a crazy moment, quite literally. I don't think words adequately get across what it's like.

So there's a POV from somebody who HAS found a loved one dead, unexpectedly, in their own home.

Trust me, you don't register smells, potential insect activity, etc. We didn't even register the obvious fact he was in rigor, for a while...

I don't think there's any way to judge what they 'should have' done, or ascertain that what they did after discovering her body was 'wrong'. From my experience -- yeah. This stuff just didn't enter my mind, and IF it had been a crime scene, I would have contaminated the hell out of it. Because keeping the area pristine is about as far from one's thoughts as it gets, in a moment like that.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Have you ever seen a corpse that has been sittiing around for 7+ hours?

Decay has already begun. JB's eyes would have started to fall back in her skull (sorry). She would have begun to turn blue in her extremities. She was frozen rigid in the position she was left in, with her arms sticking straight up, but still he hoisted her.

It would have been like picking up a dead sheep carcass out of the paddock. Already some insect activity, some odour, totally resistant to movement - the term "dead weight" springs to mind.

Delirious grief on behalf of John that he didn't notice these things, does not fit in with a man who was capable of reading his mail while waiting for a kidnapper to call, nor one who decided to fly his own plane out later that day, corpse handling or not. Totally inconsistent behaviour.

JR picking up her remains and walking upstairs with it would have been like something out of a horror story. If you haven't been around a lot of fresh dead bodies, there's a reason why dead bodies are covered with sheets. They just aren't pretty, and they ARE NOT the person you've just lost, merely a shell.

I have had animals die in my arms and it is incredible how quickly they go from "is she going to die" to "yup, she's gone". You can practically see it draining away. It is absolutely unmistakeable when the life has gone.

Picking up a limp freshly drowned child from a swimming pool is not comparable. No one would ever say "oh just leave him there", he may well still be rescuable. At very least he would still be flesh toned.

:cow:

This is an excellent post and a point that I've overlooked when put in perspective like this.

 

[Linda7NJ]

SS, forgive me - I'm not picking on you here. But this is not what it's like at all.

When you find a loved one who's recently died (and I mean measured in hours, not like, a week ago) unexpectedly, in your home, MY experience is that your mind doesn't turn to "insect activity".. or anything of the sort.

You see the person you love lying there, and they are not "a shell", sorry -- it's them, but they are not moving or breathing... "death" is a very hard thing to accept in that moment, and maybe some hours after.

A part of you knows they're gone, of course-- but another part is screaming that they can't be, and so, even though he was about as dead as dead gets, we still shook him, pleaded with him to wake up...

It's a crazy moment, quite literally. I don't think words adequately get across what it's like.

So there's a POV from somebody who HAS found a loved one dead, unexpectedly, in their own home.

Trust me, you don't register smells, potential insect activity, etc. We didn't even register the obvious fact he was in rigor, for a while...

I don't think there's any way to judge what they 'should have' done, or ascertain that what they did after discovering her body was 'wrong'. From my experience -- yeah. This stuff just didn't enter my mind, and IF it had been a crime scene, I would have contaminated the hell out of it. Because keeping the area pristine is about as far from one's thoughts as it gets, in a moment like that.

I understand what you're saying as well.

But when put in context of this case, looking at the behaviors of the Ramsey's that morning. ...
I just don't see it as you described above.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I understand what you're saying as well.

But when put in context of this case, looking at the behaviors of the Ramsey's that morning. ...
I just don't see it as you described above.

Yes, it would perhaps have been comparable if the OP had've tried to remove her deceased loved one from the bed to prop him/her up in an armchair with a cup of tea.

The body of a person who is ill and expected to die is a far, far different thing to an obviously murdered and tortured corpse of a child.

He was a smart, smart man. He knew a crime had been committed. Even the dopiest of us would have just stood there and started screaming if it were our baby we'd found. Picking her up and carrying her like a shop mannequin....? :sick:

 

[Ausgirl]

My fiance suicided, matter of fact. Thus the mention in my post of his "sudden" and "unexpected" death. and our subsequent shock at finding him.... and my point was that very few of your suppositions about how that situation might go were based in anything remotely like reality. Let me ask you your own question:

Have you ever seen a corpse that has been sittiing around for 7+ hours?

If so, was it a sudden, unexpected shock? Someone you loved very much?

If not, then how in heck would you KNOW how anyone might react in that situation?

I DO know. I know what a body looks and feels like. And I know how it feels to experience that shock, and that it doesn't matter that the body is -obviously dead- when disbelief takes hold. And I know my actions in that situation were not that far removed from the Ramsey's. Thus, I cannot find John lifting her body, or Patsy throwing herself on the body to be suspicious or "proof" of murder, whatever else they may have done that may be seen so.

 

[Venom]

Ausgirl, I'm very sorry to hear about your fiance. :hug:


I didn't mean to judge anyone, or start anything with this thread.

 

[Ausgirl]

No worries, Venom, it's a perfectly good thread, asking a very good question.

Not your fault if some don't like some of the answers.

And I ought to add - no I did not offer my dead fiance a fricken cup of tea, if anyone's wondering.

 

[Venom]

Please don't take it personal. No one here knew what you went through and I'm sure they weren't trying to attack you.

 

[Ausgirl]

I'm not taking it personal. Though the cup of tea thing got up my nose a bit.

 

[Linda7NJ]

My fiance suicided, matter of fact. Thus the mention in my post of his "sudden" and "unexpected" death. and our subsequent shock at finding him.... and my point was that very few of your suppositions about how that situation might go were based in anything remotely like reality. Let me ask you your own question:



If so, was it a sudden, unexpected shock? Someone you loved very much?

If not, then how in heck would you KNOW how anyone might react in that situation?

I DO know. I know what a body looks and feels like. And I know how it feels to experience that shock, and that it doesn't matter that the body is -obviously dead- when disbelief takes hold. And I know my actions in that situation were not that far removed from the Ramsey's. Thus, I cannot find John lifting her body, or Patsy throwing herself on the body to be suspicious or "proof" of murder, whatever else they may have done that may be seen so.

I understand what your saying, those behaviors aren't what I was specifically speaking of. I was thinking more about John wanting to leave the state, had "an important meeting to attend" after he found her body. and Patsy after hearing Fleet screaming "call an ambulance"! Never got up from her seat. Everyone else came running. Not Patsy.

Neither woke up Burke to see if he heard or saw anything. They didn't even wake him to see if he was still alive!!!

 

[Ausgirl]

.. well yes. I do find those things a little bit odd, myself.

But then, I did some odd things, too. Maybe not -that- strange.. but then, if it was me being scrutinised for murder, maybe it'd be perceived as so, I don't know.

Mainly, I was just trying to get across that the way John handled his daughter's body is not really as weird or suspicious as is being assumed here, and he may indeed have experienced deep denial, and not been concerned with rigor or her colouration or "insect activity" (if any..) .

If John didn't kill JonBenet then his behaviour in handling her body was, in my mind, completely in the range of normal.

And I do mean "if".

 

[DeeDee249]

Source that.

No evidence lists indicate fibers matching JR's shirt anywhere else.

 

[questfortrue]

No evidence lists indicate fibers matching JR's shirt anywhere else.

Not those pesky fibers again! I don’t believe they appeared in her new size 12 bloomies at 1:05 pm. JR wasn’t wearing that shirt on the afternoon of JB’s discovery.

There are some who say that a good liar always mixes in some truth. Keep that in mind when one looks at JR’s statements. He truly tripped himself up on his statements about his visits to the basement. In one of his interviews he said he was down there around 7:30- 8:00 am, then about 10:00 am more or less. He told his daughter M’s fiancé that he discovered JB at 11:00. Then we have the “final discovery” at 1:05 PM. One of the issues with the 7:30-8:00 am visit down there was that he described in detail having to move a chair and boxes in front of the train room. What he did not realize was that Detective French and FW were down there before that. FW was in the basement around 6:15 or so. French was down there looking for an entry way into the home sometime around 7:00 am. Neither of them saw boxes or a chair blocking the train room.

If one assumes that 1:05 pm was the correct and first time of discovery, then yes, we would not be able to assess why he chose to bring her up. If not involved at all in the homicide or cover-up, then it could be he was reacting as Ausgirl has described – just doing what he felt important to do at the time of discovery. If, OTOH, he either had participated in the crime and/or cover-up, all bets are off what he was trying to do. moo

 

[SapphireSteel]

Ausgirl I too am sorry for your horrible loss.

However, please know I am talking specifically about JonBenet Ramsey, and John Ramsey picking her very very dead body up, hoisting it like a block of wood, and carrying it upstairs.

Not normal behaviour, not matter what the circumstances are...hence my "cup of tea" comment - your behaviour was consistent with grief and disbelief.

John Ramseys, in my humble opinion, was NOT.

:cow:

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

.. well yes. I do find those things a little bit odd, myself.

But then, I did some odd things, too. Maybe not -that- strange.. but then, if it was me being scrutinised for murder, maybe it'd be perceived as so, I don't know.

Mainly, I was just trying to get across that the way John handled his daughter's body is not really as weird or suspicious as is being assumed here, and he may indeed have experienced deep denial, and not been concerned with rigor or her colouration or "insect activity" (if any..) .

If John didn't kill JonBenet then his behaviour in handling her body was, in my mind, completely in the range of normal.

And I do mean "if".

When analyzing JR's behavior when he found the body, don't forget to throw in the mix that there were supposed "kidnappers" too. He had read the ransom note. So, when he discovered the body, it would have "clicked" instantaneously in his mind that this was no accidental death of his child and that this was a crime scene. So the moment he found her, he should've automatically been freaked out. He should've cried out hysterically, should have yelled for help, should have been leary that the kidnapper was still down there somewhere in the dark basement. All of this would have happened within split-seconds, of course.
I hypothesize that the only way he would've carried her up the stairs in a semi-composed manner is if it was an accidental death. Or if it was something much more nefarious (wink wink).
Everyone knows you leave a crime scene alone. Even under the most adverse and horrifying discoveries and conditions.....you'd scream, you'd freeze, you'd yell for assistance which there was plenty of it right upstairs.
Think about it....

 

[SapphireSteel]

Anyone who comes upon a deceased person knows what a hideous shock it is, no matter if expected or not.

Those of us who have had this horrible experience - what was the first thing you did? How did you spend the very first few minutes? Sitting down like the air has been punched out of you would be the first thing but once your brain begins working - what was the first actual thing you did?

Did you attempt to move your loved one? Sit them up or carry them to another room? Or did you cover them and call 911?

TIA

 

[Ausgirl]

SS, good questions.. truth is, it's all a bit of a blur but I'll answer as best as I can..

what was the first thing you did?

I was nudging him 'awake' with my foot, holding a bag of some sort of food I'd brought home, when it dawned on me he was "too solid" and not breathing.

The first thing after that was say something to his sister, and I heard her screaming, then I attempted to wake him up though he was clearly not breathing and in rigor.


How did you spend the very first few minutes? Sitting down like the air has been punched out of you would be the first thing but once your brain begins working - what was the first actual thing you did?

This is where it's blurry, a bit.. that whole day is pretty mixed up in my head. But I did attempt to turn him over, and that's when I saw his face.. nuff said there. And lay over his body, as the 'death' part had sort of sunk in a bit at that stage.


Did you attempt to move your loved one? Sit them up or carry them to another room? Or did you cover them and call 911?

Yes - see above. He was obv. an adult male, so no, no attempt to carry him.. IIRC his body wasn't covered until shortly before or just after the ambulance arrived. I'm not sure when we called emergency but not for quite a long time.. half an hour? and hour? I really couldn't say, but it wasn't right away. I'm sure we called family first. I think I lost grip on reality for a short time there. But I know the emergency call wasn't like, immediately.

There were moments of eerie calm, in which I felt no desire to move at a muscle. I was like that when the paramedics arrived. And then I'd be screaming my head off. I don't recall talking to the police at all, but I remember wishing they'd just go away. They weren't being very nice, was my feeling.

I'm sure it's different for everyone. But "would have" irks me, when it comes to grief. No-one can say what somebody else -will- or -should- do in a moment like that. Things tend to not follow rational procedure at all.. Some would think that someone being very calm and businesslike was odd, but that's how my friend was when her hubby died unexpectedly at 40. Robotic.. I think we do whatever it takes to cope.

I honestly think I cracked. I did some really bizarre things in the days to follow. Nothing major.. just small, really strange things. It made sense at the time..

 

[madeleine]

I agree that in such tragic moments we might lose it and react different but what I am having problems with is the R's detaching themselves that morning (JR carrying her like he did,PR not moving from the couch,them wanting to leave ASAP,etc)...I agree I wouldn't give a damn about keeping the scene secured,I would hold my beloved one close and you'd need to point a gun at me to let go.